Author Topic: Greece  (Read 118964 times)

Offline summer98

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Greece
« on: March 10, 2012, 07:04:10 AM »
At least according to Fitch and Moody's.

Moody's: "Moody's Investors Service says that it considers Greece to have defaulted per Moody's default definitions"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/09/idUSWNA217120120309

Fitch: "Fitch Ratings has downgraded Greece's Long-term foreign and local currency Issuer Default Ratings to 'Restricted Default'"
http://www.fitchratings.com/web/en/dynamic/fitch-home.jsp
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 05:16:56 PM by TexDaddy »

Offline Oil Lady

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Re: Greece
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2012, 07:08:16 AM »
Who's next?  ::)


Offline Robinelli

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Re: Greece
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2012, 07:18:29 AM »
I saw this but I really don't understand what this means (beyond they can't pay their debts). Is there a Greek Default 101 anywhere?

Offline FrugalFannie

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Re: Greece
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2012, 07:34:03 AM »
Those who bought the Greek debt have now just lost large portions of their investment capital. The truly scary part is, in my mind, that this is just a testing ground. We will likely see other countries follow suit and eventually I would not be surprised to see the US do the same thing. We have seen what kind of chaos this has created in Greece during the lead up in this process and now we get to see the aftermath. Other governments in financial crisis (watch how many tims Obama's people use these words in the coming months) will be watching closely and taking steps to pre-emptively control the populace (more restrictive regulations and laws to limit personal privacy and freedoms).

We will see continued spending by our government to give the appearance that all is okay. (Obama has recently proposed another $10B in directed spending to 'private' industry)
More legislation to 'improve' the economy (requiring hiring of certain populations)
More legislation/court decisions stripping away our rights of freedom and privacy
then after the election, an 'announcement' that this 'crisis' is 'more serious than anyone realized'
'austerity measures', 'write down of public debt' and 'currency conversion' follows

Offline Oil Lady

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Re: Greece
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2012, 07:46:57 AM »
This can cause a domino effect of other nations in Europe (and elsewhere) who likewise have shaky economies to also start defaulting on their own national debt.

And ... depending upon which economic theory you subscribe to ... all of this is possibly proof (or at least strong evidence) that the current global economic system that was conceived of over fifty years ago is one huge lie that was doomed from the start, and that the world economy has no other choice now than to suffer a major implosion of the sort that could make the Great Depression of the 1930's look like nothing more than a bounced check and one overdraft fee. 

And ...

... If you're into conspiracy theories ... it COULD be that this global economic crisis of each nation's sovereign currency imploding one at a time like so many dominoes is in fact a diabolical plan drawn up years ago by a small cadre of global elitists (take your pick of any one of several nefraious bad-guy organizations, be they real organizations or imaginary ones) to force the whole world into adopting a one-world currency. And a one-world currency is, by default, a one-world government. 

No matter how you slice it, this ain't gonna be fun and it will impact everyone to some degree.





 

Offline cmxterra

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Re: Greece
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2012, 08:19:45 AM »
But American Idol is on. Will it disrupt me being able to watch it? (sticks head back in the hole)

Offline FrugalFannie

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Re: Greece
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2012, 09:32:41 AM »
Watching news and reading on line that there are people (Obama for one) proposing to allow homeowners to have their home loans rewritten to 90% of TODAY'S values. So if you bought a house 5 years ago, owe $270,000 on it but it's now only worth $215,000 the lender will have to rewrite your mortgage for $193,500. That would mean the lender will lose about $76,000 since you will have barely made a dent in the principal of the loan. Sounds good? Well, let's see who really pays. The bank will then get to write off their loss and collect on the mortgage insurance (government insurance in a lot of cases - Fannie and Freddie loans, VA loans, etc) meaning the taxpayer pays for the loss. Then the lender gets a 'deduction' on their business loss. Then the homeowner will get a 1099, though right now you won't be taxed on it due to a law initially passed in 2007 (the law to not get taxed is good for this year but may no be extended).

If the government can force businesses to incur a financial loss there goes even more of our financial freedoms.


Offline Pathfinder

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Re: Greece
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2012, 11:08:37 AM »
Watching news and reading on line that there are people (Obama for one) proposing to allow homeowners to have their home loans rewritten to 90% of TODAY'S values. So if you bought a house 5 years ago, owe $270,000 on it but it's now only worth $215,000 the lender will have to rewrite your mortgage for $193,500. That would mean the lender will lose about $76,000 since you will have barely made a dent in the principal of the loan. Sounds good? Well, let's see who really pays. The bank will then get to write off their loss and collect on the mortgage insurance (government insurance in a lot of cases - Fannie and Freddie loans, VA loans, etc) meaning the taxpayer pays for the loss. Then the lender gets a 'deduction' on their business loss. Then the homeowner will get a 1099, though right now you won't be taxed on it due to a law initially passed in 2007 (the law to not get taxed is good for this year but may no be extended).

If the government can force businesses to incur a financial loss there goes even more of our financial freedoms.

You mean like the stock and bond holders of GM? Or AIG?

And as for who's next, a few countries come to mind - Portugal, pain, Ireland - and each "bailout" will be harder and harder to sell to the money people.

Offline ncjeeper

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Re: Greece
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2012, 12:43:42 PM »
No matter how you slice it, this ain't gonna be fun and it will impact everyone to some degree.
Yep. Right about that.

Offline Greekman

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Re: Greece
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2012, 12:24:14 AM »
Those who bought the Greek debt have now just lost large portions of their investment capital. The truly scary part is, in my mind, that this is just a testing ground. We will likely see other countries follow suit and eventually I would not be surprised to see the US do the same thing. ..
I really do not know for the US but some European countries are already tempted to...
BUT Merkel has made sure that the price to pay for such a writedown will be blood sweat and tears of the citizen. Now even the major Eu media are openly stating that the Austerity package was more to make Greece of an example to avoid.
My mind cannot accept how people fall victims to cheap politics....

This can cause a domino effect of other nations in Europe (and elsewhere) who likewise have shaky economies to also start defaulting on their own national debt.

And ... depending upon which economic theory you subscribe to ... all of this is possibly proof (or at least strong evidence) that the current global economic system that was conceived of over fifty years ago is one huge lie that was doomed from the start, and that the world economy has no other choice now than to suffer a major implosion of the sort that could make the Great Depression of the 1930's look like nothing more than a bounced check and one overdraft fee. 

It is called financiliazation and market economy. And we have let it lose to govern our lives and dictate our future.
And it is this that scares me the most. What will become of this "capital" when there is no markets to rotate in with? their bag of tricks is twintling.
Will it be pushed towards commodities and Food in particular. Will we see Goldman Sachs owning the mega food companies which they will be controlling food production themselves?
THAT is scary....

Sunday morning after a bad night's sleep and a memorial service I will be attending soon. Greekman Out.....

Offline markl32

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Re: Greece
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2012, 10:30:00 AM »


Anyone here talking about the run on the banks in Greece yesterday?  I found this from MSNBC but my level of trust and confidence in MSNBC is low.  I'd like to know if any of the TSP community has any more reliable info. 

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11729795-greeks-withdraw-894-million-in-a-day-is-this-beginning-of-a-run-on-banks?lite

Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: Greece
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2012, 10:52:24 AM »
And as for who's next, a few countries come to mind - Portugal, pain, Ireland - and each "bailout" will be harder and harder to sell to the money people.

My money is on California.  From 9.2 to over 16 billion in debt in only 5 months.  Must be some kind of record.  And they have a larger GDP than some European countries.

Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: Greece
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2012, 10:56:17 AM »

Anyone here talking about the run on the banks in Greece yesterday?  I found this from MSNBC but my level of trust and confidence in MSNBC is low.  I'd like to know if any of the TSP community has any more reliable info. 

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11729795-greeks-withdraw-894-million-in-a-day-is-this-beginning-of-a-run-on-banks?lite

You mean you don't like the paragraph that states "Several banking sources told Reuters similar amounts had also been withdrawn on Tuesday. Nevertheless, there was no sign of panic or queues at bank branches in Athens on Wednesday. Bankers dismissed suggestions that a bank run was looming. A senior executive at a large Greek bank told Reuters: "There is no bank run, no queues or panic. The situation is better than I expected. The amount of deposit withdrawals the president mentioned referred to three days, not one." "

Nothing to see here, folks.  Move along.  These aren't the droids your looking for.

I, for one, have been and will continue to be watching this closely.  It may or may not be what eventually happens here, but it is a portent of major global changes occuring.

Offline res1cue

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Re: Greece
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2012, 10:59:40 AM »

Anyone here talking about the run on the banks in Greece yesterday?  I found this from MSNBC but my level of trust and confidence in MSNBC is low.  I'd like to know if any of the TSP community has any more reliable info. 

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11729795-greeks-withdraw-894-million-in-a-day-is-this-beginning-of-a-run-on-banks?lite

That is a very interesting article. I think although this is clearly not a run on the banks yet, it was interesting how it mentioned a third of the GDP has been withdrawn in the past 2 years.

Offline markl32

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Re: Greece
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2012, 11:07:57 AM »
You mean you don't like the paragraph that states "Several banking sources told Reuters similar amounts had also been withdrawn on Tuesday. Nevertheless, there was no sign of panic or queues at bank branches in Athens on Wednesday. Bankers dismissed suggestions that a bank run was looming. A senior executive at a large Greek bank told Reuters: "There is no bank run, no queues or panic. The situation is better than I expected. The amount of deposit withdrawals the president mentioned referred to three days, not one." "

Nothing to see here, folks.  Move along.  These aren't the droids your looking for.



Correct.  In my observations as a consumer of news and from my direct involvement with the media I have come to learn that what ever is printed is just about guaranteed NOT what happened or is whats happening.  Just fishing here and hoping that maybe some Grecian locals are also TSP followers. 

I love to leverage the power of the internet to get other points of view that are not reported through traditional media channels. 

I also believe that Greece is the canary in the coal mine on the european economy.   


Offline Cedar

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Re: Greece
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2012, 11:23:37 AM »
The bank runs were $858M in about 5 hours time Monday in Greece.  And VERY LITTLE is being said about it on American news today. Months go they blamed the DOW dropping on Greece sneezing.. and after the Greek bnk runs, there a drop this morning, but not it is +20.66.

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Re: Greece
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2012, 11:38:23 AM »
I think it's important to look at the scale of the 'bank run'.  I haven't seen anything that establishes what a normal turnover is in the Greek banking system and this is less than a billion dollars in a country that has a GDP around $340 billion.  It might just be normal or a little bit more active than normal or it could be earth shattering.  Without a reference point, it's tough to tell what it really is.

The media likes big numbers, but they seldom do the responsible thing and give a reference point to put it into perspective.

If I said the DOW fell 60 points most folks would shrug, but if it was 1981 and the DOW was at 850, it would probably rattle your cage pretty good.

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Re: Greece
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2012, 03:36:54 PM »
Here's a bit more perspective on the 'bank run'
http://news.yahoo.com/run-greek-banks-looks-180100901.html

Offline Pathfinder

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Re: Greece
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2012, 05:42:37 PM »
The bank runs were $858M in about 5 hours time Monday in Greece.  And VERY LITTLE is being said about it on American news today. Months go they blamed the DOW dropping on Greece sneezing.. and after the Greek bnk runs, there a drop this morning, but not it is +20.66.

Cedar

One of the articles I read said that the finance minister said that the amount was currently (at the meeting) between 700 and 800 million euros (almost $900 million) but that it would end up around a billion euros.

Offline Pathfinder

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Re: Greece
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2012, 05:48:22 PM »
I think it's important to look at the scale of the 'bank run'.  I haven't seen anything that establishes what a normal turnover is in the Greek banking system and this is less than a billion dollars in a country that has a GDP around $340 billion.  It might just be normal or a little bit more active than normal or it could be earth shattering.  Without a reference point, it's tough to tell what it really is.

The media likes big numbers, but they seldom do the responsible thing and give a reference point to put it into perspective.

If I said the DOW fell 60 points most folks would shrug, but if it was 1981 and the DOW was at 850, it would probably rattle your cage pretty good.

Check the part that said that one third of the deposits had been withdrawn in the past 2 years. That is a whole lotta money not available for loans and whatnot for house, business creating jobs, etc. And regardless of a reference point, people removing 1/3 of the working capital from the process is a lot.

Add to that the fact that banks worldwide but especially in the EU are stashing cash away against the default, and a whole lot of people are going to lose credit, again, putting the damper on the economy even further.

I think the reference point is a good comment, but seriously, it's a little bit like asking how big the iceberg was that the Titanic hit. We may be beyond that at the moment - a moment everyone has been waiting for while hoping against hope that Greece would not default. Greece is the first card, we'll see just how much the EU wants to save the rest of the house of cards.

Offline atleif

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Re: Greece
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2012, 01:28:27 PM »
so...i gotta a question. the money from these "austerity measures" being forced on the nations gov'ts to impose...who actually benefits from that? where does the money end up? with central bankers?

Offline MTUCache

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Re: Greece
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2012, 02:29:09 PM »
so...i gotta a question. the money from these "austerity measures" being forced on the nations gov'ts to impose...who actually benefits from that? where does the money end up? with central bankers?
I don't think there is any money being "created" by these... As I understand it, these austerity measures are self-imposed on their citizens based upon recommendations by the ECB. They're not generating "extra" revenue to pay back the bail-out (at least, not at this point), but they're proving to the rest of the Euro-zone that they're committed to being more responsible with their budget and trying to get as close to "balanced" as possible so they don't need another bail-out later.

Essentially, they're forcing these governments to govern with far less credit than before. They need to show proof that they're able to pay for the services that they're providing to their citizens.

Which is what really gets me about all these riots and protests.... is really genuine to be upset about something being taken away from you that you knew the government couldn't afford to give to you? Not that it wouldn't happen here, I mean, it's going to get crazy in the next couple of decades when all of these retirees get the complete picture of how their pension fund looks. But it does seem kind of whiny to get upset about someone not keeping their promise to you when you were completely aware that they were never going to be able to do it in the first place.

That being said, I don't think I'd ever be in a place where I'd be complacent about the government hiking my tax rate by double-digit figures in a year and cutting what little they do provide to the bone.  ::)

Offline solarguy

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Re: Greece
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2012, 02:40:31 PM »
Yeah, the "austerity measures" mean they have to spend ~no more than they take in, ie balanced budget.  Sounds simple.

The real austerity is the fact that the government owes a LOT of money to the big bank organizations.  And the big bank people have to get paid since they "saved" greece.  So, with a ~balanced budget, with a new big line item to pay the government debt back, there is suddenly not enough money to pay full pensions and all the other full government benefits that people were "entitled" to.

Of course, some really are entitled, and some are not.

The credit cards bill are rolling in pretty fast now.

HTH,

troy

Offline atleif

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Re: Greece
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2012, 02:51:56 PM »
the spending cuts wouldn't bother me as much as the drastic tax hikes (i'm sure their taxes are to high to begin with like ours are) i think someone on the forum mentioned an austerity tax equal to a laymans weekly wage being added onto your utilities in greece.  Such a huge added tax would make it that  for lower to middle class even working full time you wouldnt be able (or would struggle) just to make ends meet.

Offline jpbearit

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Re: Greece
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2012, 08:49:38 PM »
Ask yourself this, how well is a tax hike of any size going to work in a country where tax avoidance is almost total and tax fraud is rarely punished if you know who to… well just to be frank… bribe.

"Look… people is people. If people no want to pay tax, they find a way to no pay tax." - Mr. Ravanos (owner of my favorite local Greek joint and philosopher of Aristotelian caliber.)

I don’t care if we talk about  Greece, brazil, USA, England, India or Zimbabwe. You can’t expect people to not find ways of getting out of taxes that will only break them.  Our self-preservation instinct is too strong to sacrifice ourselves for honor-less politicians laws we did not vote for ourselves.

Offline Greekman

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Re: Greece
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2012, 01:19:13 AM »
Sorry to say it, but you all missed the point.

The Greek goverment has to prove that is a good minnion to the EU. I does that by taking measures that force the Greek economy into an internal devaluation.(in the hope of stimulating regrowth. thsi ahs failed, see the text at the end)

What is called austerity maasures is not.
Austerity means cutting back on expenses.
But all the measures that have been taken -and mostly what they are about to take- are a little of that.

Why should any goverment regulate minimum wages, even when the employer organizations deny that? (because they know that they might win 1 but they will loose 10 with the ensuing recession)
Why should a goverment lower the civil cervant wages when it is calculated that 94% of these money gets back into the state (by taxation, VAT and circulating money creating more tax and VAT)
It has already been calculated that the 11.5 bn Euro austerity measures that will be taken in the next weeks will further lower the GDP 1.2% and increase unemployment 1.7%? Huh? Could someone explain?

It has been decided to tax self-employed at 35% and there maybe be population wide tax of 1000 Euros whether you have any income or not. That is TWO wages of a blue colllar worker. (we have gone that far that there are honest families that are all unemployed and their dilema is paying the taxes or paying the electricity bills)
Tax evation is huge but not among all social strata. People on a pension or a wage cannot tax evade, their employer sents the data montly to the Greek IRS. And these are the majority of the IRS cliente.
It is businessmen and some categories of self-employed (lawyers & doctors amongst them) that are the tax champions. (you see you cannot tax an income that is not declared since you get paid under the table). For these the Greek goverment has announced NO measure to even TRY culling their tax evation. It just shifts the burden to the common people.

We (the common folk) lost 1-2 paychecks to new taxes last year and will loose at least one more with the new measures that will be braught upon us. Yes we have come that far. Measuring taxation not in percentages but in wages.
Want an example? i was unemployed all through 2011. yet i was taxed for a "pressumed income" of 6000 euros. 3000 for just being and 3000 for owning a car (an 2004 Hyundai Accent). (blue colar wage was 700 E in 2011)(the logic is this. If you can feed yourself to be alive you got to have a 3000E income. And another 3000 to support that car)
in effect one may eat at the kitchen soups but he will still loose his -paid for- house on outstanding taxes.. Last year even homeless had to pay tax!

Yet from 2008 till now -and counting a future trance of 23 bn- the state has financed (recapitalized is the "proper" word) the Greek banks will a total of 218 bn Euros. that is in excess of the 2012 GDP.

Of all these, please point me to ONE thing that would help any economy stand on its feet and create new money/product/GDP to pay off its depts.
Instead we are drawn deeper in the abyss.
look at the big picture. +3% in the GDP of 2009, -5% in the GDP of 2012 (estimated). 125% of the GDP in dept in 2009 (with the primeminister and the secretary of economics under investigation of cooking the books to make the dept look bigger - but this is another story) 161% dept after the PSI in 2012.
WTF? ( I totally deserve saying it ) Are we sweating and bleeding to make our economy worse? WTF!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis

http://www.economia.gr/index.php?dispatch=pages.view&page_id=2118
Quote
The learning process proved no easier for even the most hardened practitioners of the international system – all those who had to administer the bitter-but-sorely-needed medicine to the Greek economy. Here, too, we use a stereotypical way of looking at things. This goes both for the ‘official sector’, i.e. the IMF, the ECB/the NCBs, the Brussels crowd, the Berlin-to-Paris axis and for the multifaceted private sector, ranging from the most dress-code-conscious bankers or insurance executives to swashbuckling hedge-funds’ stars (who just had a less-than-star year on 2011) or even to the individual bondholder who thought it wise or – later on – thrilling to get some Greek bonds in his or her portfolio.

Soon it became quite a puzzle how to let the steam out of overheated economy but without bringing the real economy down. But what in the first months of stabilisation gave rise just to complaints on the part of the IMF/ECB/EU people that structural measures that were to bring about competitiveness to the Greek economy (and thus supplement the successive budgetary-and-income cuts and tax increases with growth) were undertaken with low enthusiasm, gradually turned to impatience, then concern, then disbelief.

The Greek economy did not go the way of “internal devaluation”: true enough, incomes were slashed (and disposable, i.e. after-tax incomes dropped dead) ; but prices proved stubbornly sticky and the competitiveness of the Greek economy as far as tradable goods are concerned did little to get better – if for no other reason, because the export basis of the economy had sunk so much that something akin to a miracle would be needed to float it back. But the real impasse was when the unavoidable dip in GDP from mid-2011 onwards got close to a freefall. At that point in time, it started to dawn on even the most self-centered international civil servants that something was seriously wrong with the medicine prescribed for Greece...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 05:17:28 PM by TexDaddy »

Offline bigbear

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Re: Greece
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2012, 07:45:56 AM »
It's pretty obvious that there are very pervasive social programs and assistance in many countries.  Especially in Europe and more increasing in the US.  Those "promises" were given for votes.  Those "promises" also "have" to be funded or there will be civil unrest.  Gov'ts (in this case Greece) decided to pacify the populace with additional debt financing.  Now the bill collector is coming to collect their interest payments and even recover some principal.  No new debt (to continue funding promises) will be issued unless changes happen (aka austerity measures).  The deal with the devil was made years ago. 

Think of it from a personal perspective.  You spend all of your income on stuff.  You're living great.  But your friend has more.  You want more.  You have a choice, lower standard of living or more debt.  Heck no, I'm competing with the Joneses (aka policitians pandering for votes).  You get a credit card or take out a HELOC and suddenly you can increase your living standard.  Things go well for a while, but you start to notice that you're barely able to make your payments as cable costs more, the smartphone data plan costs more, food starts costing more, gas starts costing more, health insurance at work starts costing more...  So you go the bank and they say "No.  We can only give you more credit if your cash flow changes (increase income, decrease expenses, or some combo)."  So your choices are: get a second job (increased taxes, spur economy somehow, or find someway to increase your cash/printing press/QE), lower your expenses/standard of living (cancel cable, carpool, no data plan...austerity measures).  Then you can qualify for an additional line of credit to fund some other standard of living.  You agree to the changes and take the extra loan.  (Ok, we all know banks don't work like that with individuals, but if you individually or we collectively can cause a financial problem to the bank then they would work like that.)

Austerity measures is nothing more than a PR spin to make spending controls sound outrageous.  Sometimes the spending cuts are outrageous, sometimes they're not.  But the label's the same if it's the "other side" that is placing the controls.

Offline jpbearit

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Re: Greece
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2012, 10:41:34 AM »
So Greekman,

Due to these "austerity measures," I'm willing to bet that the underground economy, "the black market," has exploded there in your country.
 
Am I right?

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: Greece
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2012, 02:25:03 PM »
Of all these, please point me to ONE thing that would help any economy stand on its feet and create new money/product/GDP to pay off its depts.
Instead we are drawn deeper in the abyss.

Well that is the global elite plan, right?  It is working, for them.  It is called "serfdom".

They extend credit to the country and individuals way beyond the ability to repay.  They knew this.  Then they get the politicians to agree to raise taxes and cut spending some, but not enough to actually pay off the debt.  The bankers profits are GUARANTEED by the govt backing (using taxpayer funds).

This way the masses of population are kept burdened to the maximum tolerable amount but kept alive enough to keep working away 8 hrs/ day, 10 hrs, 12 hrs, 14 hrs...

What the bankers fear is a general default and refusal by govt to collect the increasing taxes.  I think this is the only way out, but there is no pretty option at this point of indebtedness.  Even if we all default, the long term solution is to live within our means, but people are so addicted to the fun ways of deficit spending it will be painful for most to live within their national and personal means.

DEBT = SLAVERY


Offline Greekman

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Re: Greece
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2012, 05:39:50 PM »
So Greekman,

Due to these "austerity measures," I'm willing to bet that the underground economy, "the black market," has exploded there in your country.
 
Am I right?
Actualy not that much...
for 2 reasons.
1st there has already been an undergound economy. the incentive has not increase mainly because they ahve found ways to tax irrespective of the ones actuall income (declared or not). the "pressuemd" income i talked of above.
2nd so what...there is not much money left other than the bills and food. there is no interest in buying anything else