Author Topic: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?  (Read 67997 times)

Offline byJess

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I am just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on airguns, specifically replicas being used as self defense.

I suspect that a lot of the power and control that can be derived from a gun comes before a round is left off.  Is it foolish to try to bluff with an airgun?

Obviously the real thing is better, but if the real thing couldn't be easily obtained, or wasn't wanted for whatever reason, could someone be secure with an airgun?

Offline cmxterra

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2012, 10:54:38 AM »
No no and no

Good way to get shot. You don't bluff when it comes to self defense. If it is serious enough to need a gun to protect yourself then having something like that is just foolish.

Offline cdhm22

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2012, 11:03:22 AM »
I'm sorry but I think I have to agree with cmxterra. If lethality is the concern then there are a lot of options for non-lethal ammunition, but I don't feel that if it is up to a self defense scenarion that using an air gun is at all a worthwhile thought. I think pepper spray would be a better deterrant than an air gun. As a kid we used to shoot each other with air guns while playing army, and I can tell you that or a paint ball gun wouldn't deter me as a kid, so if you do get to the point of needing to shoot you are hosed. I got sprayed by accident once with pepper spray, and even in the scalp nowhere near my eyes I will tell you I ran away.

Offline soupbone

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2012, 04:37:45 PM »
The most powerful commonly available airguns are of the .25 cal. spring air or pre-charged pneumatic types. These have about the same effectiveness as a .22 short - not something you would want to stake your life on. .25 cal. guns are for serious airgun afficinados and priced accordingly - from $300 up. Mostly up.

The really high-powered large caliber airguns - .30 cal. and up to .44 or .50 are quite capable of being used, but are mostly single shot. They have been used to hunt such game as wild boar, so there is enough power, but expect to pay big $$$ for these very intricate custom made rifles.

If there is some reason that you cannot have a firearm - local gun control laws, for example - tread carefully, as those locales that ban firearms often ban high powered air guns.

All in all, I have to agree with cmxterra and cdhm22 - if you feel the need to threaten deadly force, you need deadly force. Threats don't always work and could exacerbate  the situation - not something you want to do. A surprise blast of OC spray to the face, followed up with a baseball bat (or war hammer(:D)) if necessary would be far more effective for self defense than any common airgun. Psychologically, OC might be more effective than a gun, as the perp would realize that he is more likely to get hosed down with "ouch juice" than shot.

"Is it foolish to try to bluff with an airgun?" It is very foolish to try to bluff with ANY gun, both from the tactical and legal standpoint.

soupbone

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2012, 08:22:23 PM »
If you don't mind spending over $2k (gun, scuba tank, optic), you could use the Benjamin Rogue .357. 



Personally, I'd rather spend a lot less for a shotgun.....


......but I like the warhammer idea, too.


Offline markl32

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2012, 12:23:20 AM »

If you believe you can defend yourself by bluffing with an air gun you are a danger to yourself, to others, and in desperate need of some self defense training and mind set adjustment. 

Look up "shootout" and "Armed Robbery" on Google / youtube.  You will be sick.  But at least at after seeing a few real life shoot outs you'll no longer have this dangerous and nieve notion. 

Offline pokeshell

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2012, 02:52:54 AM »
Any way to make a air gun go BANG!? I like to hunt the small critters with nice scoped air guns. Very accurate, and deadly. Many are more powerful than a .22, and no noise, so you can drop one, then his buddy sitting next to him.

But for self defense, this is just foolish. Just get the iphone app that make the sound of you racking a shotgun and plug it into your stereo. Then run.

You could easily kill someone with a well placed round from a very nice air gun. But, you would have the time to retreat if you had the time to make the shot.

Offline Scottman

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2012, 06:19:45 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDqs2GSaCXs The caselman air machine gun

Offline RPZ

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2012, 05:59:19 AM »
Better than absolutely nothing. Better would be one of the more powerful airguns that can equal or exceed a .22 rimfire. Better still would be a .22 rimfire autoloader.

If you can not have or do not want a firearm perhaps the best would be a croosbow or conventional bow.

Offline bdhutier

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2012, 10:20:46 PM »
Better than absolutely nothing. Better would be one of the more powerful airguns that can equal or exceed a .22 rimfire. Better still would be a .22 rimfire autoloader.

If you can not have or do not want a firearm perhaps the best would be a croosbow or conventional bow.

IMO, better would be a stun gun or tazer, versus an airgun.  At least those could buy you some time to get some distance between yourself and the threat!

Offline blademan

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2012, 01:13:07 AM »
Hi,
   I just joined the forum and this is my first post. I chose this thread because I have thought a lot about this very question as an airgun may be the route I have to go as a projectile base home/self defense tool.
   My opinion on this question is yes an airgun can be a usable and effective tool for home defense. If a firearm (powderburner) is not an option then the APPROPRIATE  airgun can be a viable alternative. Not just should your airgun choice be appropriate but the pellets you use need to be chosen for this purpose.
  Here is what I mean by appropriate.
  Power: take the smallest firearm caliber effective (not optimal, airgun are not an optimal choice for home/self defense so there has to be some leeway in our decision process) for home defense. This is has to be the .22 or a .25 ( I know a .25 is usually laughed at but you know who isn't laughing at .25s, all the dead people killed by them.) So, go find an airgun that can match that power. While you can find some .22 and .25 cal air rifles that are pretty powerful, they simply lack the impact due to small pellet size.
 So you move up in caliber. This is where the decision gets pretty hard. It puts you between a rock and a hard place. After .25 caliber, there are only a few affordable and reliable options in airguns. They are almost all rifles, there are just nothing in a air pistol that I would consider for defense unless it was the absolute only thing I could possibly get, or it just happened to be in my hand when I needed to protect myself.
   So this brings you to a decision, you have to weigh power, action, quality and price.
   The problem with air rifles is that the obtainable high power rifles tend to be single shot. Now, most people will think that its a good to have a gun that can give you a quick follow up shot, they are RIGHT! That being said, it like making a choice between a break barrel 12 ga. and a 5 shot .22 pistol. I would probably go with the shotgun. I base it on this, if I am 100% accurate and land every shot with either gun, I have a greater chance of ending a confrontation with a 12 than the 22. (I base that on the fact that there are more people walking around who have survived multiple shots with a .22 than there are who survived a single shot from a 12 ga at home defense ranges) So, that limits the options a little but there happens to be a few air guns that would fit the bill.
   First, there is the recommendation above of the Benjamin Rouge epcp rifle.
 Its a .357 cal high power air rifle. It has been used to take feral hogs and deer at bow ranges which is far greater than all but the most unusual home defense ranges.
  Here's the cool part, it is a six shot semi auto with a easy to use rotary (think revolver here) magazine. But just like any gun, you have to train with it, its more complicated than most air rifles and firearms, but it would absolutely work in this situation.
  Downside: $$$$. Also, it is battery powered, though I think there is a way to use it without it but I may be wrong here. And its big, but if you train with it, that's a small downside. 
 Next, there is the daystate wolverine, it is. .303 cal pcp air rifle. It is a repeater too working off the same rotary type mag at the Rogue. It has the same upside downsides as well with the added downside of it costs even more and its imported meaning if it needs warranty work, you have to ship it to england to my knowledge. I think it need batteries too.
   Now if you lean more toward raw power than shot capacity and have a more limited budget, there there are the Korean airguns. Shin Sun is a good brand but hard to get right now. Evanix makes a 9 mm repeater, but it is a bit pricey, and it also requires a battery.
   There is also sam yang, they make a .357,  a .45. And a .50 caliber rifle. These are all single shot jobs but I have seen the .50 shoot through 1 1/2 inch pine boards at moderate ranges and they are used as a primary hunting weapon in countries where guns are forbidden to the general population. My opinion is that if it can kill a dear of a adult wild boar, it can be used to defend ones self with. There is a lot more I can say on this, but I will close with this, if you choose an air rifle for home defense, you need to train with it. Get some training or if you can't, watch some training on home defense and apply that to your situation. Also, and this isn't an advert, but a recommendation, www.pyramyd air is a great site for looking into the air guns I mentioned. Do some good research and let that guide your decision. I also agree that trying to threaten with an airgun is a bad idea. Use it or don't. But be ready and willing to use it if you have to.

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2012, 06:34:52 AM »
Axe, baseball bat, shovel, almost anything would be better and more legally defendable afterward than screwing around with an airgun in the situations we're most likely to face.  Though blademan does bring up some interesting points.  The real answer is a shotgun.  Even the most restrictive states here in the U.S. will allow their subjects to own and use a pump or double barrel.

But it is true that you can stop a freight train with a bb gun (and that's the real point of this post).  Here's how:  http://what-if.xkcd.com/18/

Offline livinitup0

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2012, 07:59:11 AM »
I'd rather have a slingshot with some ball bearings than an airgun for home defense... one of those single shot, one handed crossbows would probably be better than that. 

that being said when i'm out of my apartment and in a house Im getting a .12guage with some 00buck. No use reinventing the wheel here man. :) 

Offline oktheniknow

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2012, 09:25:48 AM »
I like to hunt the small critters with nice scoped air guns. Very accurate, and deadly. Many are more powerful than a .22, and no noise, so you can drop one, then his buddy sitting next to him.
I've thought about that for killing squirrels and such. Any suggestions for a good air gun with scope that has no noise for that type of thing?

Offline Scottman

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2012, 10:06:07 PM »
A long barrel 22 with aguilla super colibri, cb shorts/longs works well.

Offline blademan

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2012, 08:18:52 PM »
I would like to take a minute here to reiterate the reasons that certain air guns are one of the best solutions for home defense in a situation when a powder burner is not available for whatever reason. One, certain air guns, the benjamin rogue, the shin sungs in 9, .45, and 50 and the sam yangs in the same calibers, are hunting rifles. They are made to kill animals and have been used to take deer and boars at archery ranges. If you can kill a 300 lb boar or a 150 to 200 lb buck at 30-50 yards, you can do the same to a two legged rat in your living room when you are in you kitchen or bedroom or probably anywhere you have a clear sight picture. Again, would I rather have a 5 to seven round auto or pump 12 ga instead of a complicated gun with dual phase ammo, (the projectile and propellant are seperate and both have to be loaded seperately.) Hell yeah I would, but if I had a six shot 357 carbine air rifle that I can attach a laser and tac light too I guarantee you I will kill an intruder with that before you can get your first ball bearing or short plastic chicom crossbow pistol bolt loaded. And even with the single shot bigger air guns, they will reload faster than a crossbow pistol. And those pistols are almost always a really cheaply made piece of crap, if you look at the reviews, a lot of people complain about some of them breaking on the first shot. And if you are going to defend your house with toys, get something with a little punch and get a cold steel big bore blow gun and a bottle of curari because that will work better than a sling shot. Unless you have the one that sweedish dude made that shoots machetes. I'm not trying to rant here, but this guy asked a serious question and I'm seeing a lot of answers to questions he didn't ask.

    Another word about air superiority, (or at least adequacy!) The quackenbush air rifles (the new ones) have been used to take bison and other large (african, if memory serves) animals. While not a first choice for home defense, it would do the job.
   My opinion is this, if I could not have a firearm for home defense, then the best thing to do is to first, harden your home to be more resistant to invasion. Then have diverse and redundant combative measures to use to defend yourself and subdue, kill or repell and incader. So, a combination of clubs, knives, and other high power projectile launchers should be in the arsenal. Heck, these should be in the arsenal anyway. Additionally, learn to effectively use the weapons you have and learn and practice a martial art such as wrestling or krav maga, or whatever you feel is the best one.

  I'm not saying that everyone should go buy an air gun instead of a 12 ga or glock and call it good. But if its what you have or all you can have, then train with it and learn what it can do and learn what it can do in a given situation. Just like you would do with a "real gun" and use it for those things.
   Something I forgot to expand on in my first reply, something in air gunning that is even more important than in powder burners because of the lower power and shorter range, is ammo selection. There may be no magic bullet, but in many cases there is pretty much a magic pellet. And if home defense is what you are looking for, then that will effect your choice. There are probably as many if not more varities of pellets and makers for a given caliber than there are for powder burners. (Maybe not, but it seems like it.) Though once you get to the higher calibers, it gets a little simpler. Without getting too far into it, I would think that the hollow point wouldn't be as desirable in this case as it is in real guns beacuse of the lower velocities probably won't cause as much expansion and will reduce energy due to lower bullet mass. Just my thoughts on the issue.
   

Offline blademan

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2012, 08:57:12 PM »
I got more to say,
   Alan, thanks for the link to that stopping a train with a bb. That was great. Loved it.
   And just to make sure I covered all aspects of his question,
Home defense, yes if you can't have or don't want a real gun. Couple it with other options and learn how to use an air rifle the same way you would use a pistol caliber carbine for home defense, and practice with it. You will have to figure out how to do that.
  As for self defense, if you mean away from home, or even in your yard. Hell NO!
    There is no commercially made air pistol I am aware of thay would in anyones even very liberal view be considered a good concealed self defense weapo. There's just not enough area on a package that small to get enough air compression to get the power you need to reach fatal energies. And not to mention the legal implications. You are likely to get shot by cops, or other citizens doing that at worst and get your ass handed to you by the person you shoot or wave it at in the least. So, good luck buddy, I hope you find a home defense option for you. For self defense, cardio so you can run if you need to. (More advisable than most people want to admit or talk about.) Strengthen your lungs so you can make a lot of noise to get attention, learn and practice a martial art. And carry unusuall weapons. The asp key defender is a real good one for this. Its a flail, kubotan,and it has pepper spray in it. Get one of those and a short ball bearing or golf ball monkey or gorilla fist and put the fist on the key ring and you have a heck of a meelee option with that. A walking stick or cane (look up hanbo) or even just a bottle of water squited in some jerks face might be all you need to get the upper hand and end a confrontation. But I don't want to go on all day. There was a suggestion for a stun gun or taser above. And I would prefer a brand name TASER or something very similar as they give you distance from your attacker. Pawn shop stun guns and malil order stuff can be anywhere from excelent to only good for impressing and amusing your drinking buddies with. Again, good luck and I hope you find something that works for you.

Offline livinitup0

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2012, 07:26:15 AM »
Arent these super powered air rifles regulated just as much as a regular gun in most states? I dont know why someone wouldnt just get a normal gun for half the cost of one of these super BB guns if its just as much of a headache legally and more prone to malfunctions... 



Offline flippydidit

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2012, 08:51:52 AM »
I'm going to say that if you're looking at home defense, and for whatever reason you can't go with a conventional firearm or BP weapon, then the air rifle/pistol still wouldn't be my choice.  I'd go with a corded or battery powered chainsaw first.  You don't need to swing it like a warhammer (think cramped hallways).  It's also quite the psychological weapon to an intruder.  Next would be one of those air compressor powered nail guns (may need modification to shoot further than 10 feet or so).  Finally I might choose a fully automatic paintball gun shooting ball bearings or marbles (you could probably crank the pressure up too).

These of course are probably all illegal for those purposes, SO DON'T DO IT!

Now to be serious.....have you considered a full grown tiger?  I'd imagine that even a well armed home intruder would run like a 6 year old sissy girl if he came across that climbing through a window.

Anyway, all of the above options would be more likely choices for me than an airgun.  Probably also a flamethrower, but I'd need to prep the home for fire-proofing.....

Offline blademan

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2012, 11:38:14 AM »
Livin,
   I think you are right in some states, and many countries, they are considered firearms and fall under the same restrictions. In most of the US to my knowledge, they are still pretty much legal for everyone. And you are right that they are probably more prone to malfunction than most powderburners, and pretty expensive. End of response to livintup


Again though, the question was could he use an air gun for home/self defense either as a real lethal weapon or as a intimidation tool in a situation in which a real gun was unwanted or unavailable. Most people have answered why it sucks or isn't a good idea. The question was about possibility, not approriateness. I just wanted to give the guy the best information to guide him in a non optimal situation.
   I would not like to be in the situation of being forced to use less than optimal equipment to protect myself with. Let's change the variables, let's say you hate 9mm. Let's say you also hate hi-point firearms. And for some unlikely reason, you are forced to chose between a either a sharp stick, or a hi-point 9mm carbine rifle. Let's equalize it even more, you have unlimited materiel with either choice, in other words, ammo and sharp sticks are available in equal ammounts and if the gun needs fixing or replacing, its done.
   I'm going to pick the hi-point everytime. All day.
 Let's take it a step further, say you could choose between the same firearm and a knife.  I'm still picking the firearm. I'm going to pick a firearm because its the most powerful weapon that an attacker is likely to have and not having one puts you at a serious disadvantage. If you are forced to take the firearm out of one side of the equation, (ie you won't have one) then you need to fill that variable with the most similar choice you can. The most similar option to a firearm in this case is a high power air rifle that is ballistically capable of ending a conflict. Just my opinion.
 Ok I just saw the new post to this topic.
Wow, those suggestions are the most tv based loads of crap I have ever heard.
Let's say this another way, if someone broke into your home with the benjamin rogue and shot you in the head with it as you were swinging a baseball bat, chainsaw, sling shot, etc at them, you would be dead. These things are freakin guns, they will kill a person in one shot. They are deadly. They are more usable than a muzzleloading blackpowder rifle. They are as historic as feudal japan where they were used as sniper rifles because they were absolutely smokeless and quieter than powderburners. So there is a bit of history with them being used to kill people.
  A corded chainsaw? Really? Yeah chainsaws have been used in home defense (one case I know of involves a blind man chased off three armed guys with one here in oklahoma) but really, you are going to exchange a effective efficient tool for one that is not as effective or efficient based on the fact that it isn't as effective or efficient as a third tool that isn't part of the equation. This makes no sense. That would be like saying since I can't have a kabar, I'm just not going to have a knife at all and I will do all my cutting with a spoon. Go get some actual training in dynamic tactical home defense and see if anyone in that group would pick a chain saw. Go look up some of the vids on the sam yangs and other high power air rifles.
   The right high powered air rifle and the training to use it correctly, isn't as good as a shotgun, or a pistol caliber carbine, or a handgun for home defense. I want to go on record saying that. Just about ANY powder based gun of modern manufacture and design is better than almost ANY airgun of the same caliber.
   This is a case of emotional prejudice over riding logical thought process.
You can't stop a person who is ten feet away or more with a chainsaw. The paint ball gun is an airgun that is lower power and less effective, I mean really, let's not go further backward than we have too. The rogue is better than any paintball marker. Period. The only edge is that they can be full auto but they still are less lethal on average than any of the air rifles I've mentioned. Volume doesn't make up for power and effectiveness.
   And a tiger? A doggo argentino well trained as a protection dog would be more useful. 
   And would eat less. And shed less. And would be less likely to get spooked by some large hairdo and drag you around by your neck. You could afford a pack of hunting dogs and a contingent of protection animals for the came cost a single tiger and have less trouble with them. I was trying to give this guy a serious usable answer that might him defend his life one day. And I think a flame thrower for home defense is bass ackward. Seriously, I'd go naked and barehanded down a dark hallway first.
  It seem like even though we told the guy not to try to threaten with an air gun, a lot of the other suggestions have been about things that would be mostly for a scare factor. I'm not trying to scare someone with a home defense weapon. I hope they never see it.
   So let's try to be serious about the tools we would take to this job.
  Sorry to pick on you flippy, but those were some pretty out there suggerstions, I think using them would go badly for the person using them.
 Seems like we are trying to reinvent the wheel on projectile weapons here, I considered this for a while to use high pressure pneumatics to throw things at bad guys. Then I looked on line and saw that smarter people than me had already done it better than I was planning. The best answer to no firearm is the next best thing. Air arm. It has enough power and in the right configuration, is fast enough even if its a little slower than the real thing. I also base this answer on the fact, the irrefraggable fact that many of the high power air rifles are made in countries where powderburners are illegal. They are used for hunting and home defense.  Daystate air rifles are high power but lower caliber rifles that have to be set to a lower power in order to be sold in the country they are made in. I still haven't heard someone say why the appropriate air rifle isn't more desireable than a lett powerful option in lieu of real guns. Or an alternative that is realistic. The test is this, does it work, would you trust your life to it? So if anyone would like to proceed along those lines then I would like to read their response.

Offline livinitup0

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2012, 01:32:50 PM »
someone's sarcasm detector is broke. :)

yes an airgun could be used for self defense. Should it be?... no...because even outside of firearms there are more practical and reliable home defense solutions...

like a Liger....or a gorilla trained in karate....or in-law's. 

...and for the kind of money it would cost to get one of these super high powered BB guns, I could probably fortify my place to precent 99% of bad guys from even getting in.

Offline blademan

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2012, 03:19:02 PM »
Wow,
    I recognized the sarcasm. My point was that people were dismissing the idea because they are unfamiliar with the rifles I speak of and the turned around and offered less not more effective solutions. If you can get a high powered air rifle in lieu of a real gun, and plan to use it for home defense, then I say that it is a very good choice even though its a bit pricey. You can get just as expensive with some real guns. It also gives you the added ability of hunting that you cannot do with most of the non projectile alternatives that have been suggested. And since many of the high power air rifles have selectable power settings, they can be adjusted up or down for the size of the game you are hunting. This is something thaat you can't do with most real guns other than the shotgun.
   Again I am not saying that air guns are the state of the art in home defense. What I am saying is that expecially in the abscence of real guns, they are a excelent part of a multifacted home defense system, one that should include a dog(s), enhanced physical security measures, distraction and harassment measures, etc.
  I still have not been convinced that the appropriate air gun is a bad choice for addition to a home defense system or that there is any reason to exclude it from selection in favor of some other item especially for a close combat meelee option that is inherently more risky and less effective when compared to a flying chunk of cold lead.
   In the interest of being open minded though I will admit that I see that an archery option in the absence of firearms. But I guess its all a matter of choice.

Offline livinitup0

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2012, 03:34:33 PM »
I think this is where we're really disagreeing....

"are a excelent part of a multifacted home defense system"

lets just agree to disagree....

Offline joeinwv

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2012, 07:59:00 PM »
Certainly, if you have enough qualifiers, then an air rifle is a viable option.

Kind of like asking if a bicycle is a good mode of cross country transport. Sure it is, if there's no planes or cars or motorcycles or scooters or horses or ox drawn carts....

Offline blademan

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2012, 09:53:34 PM »
Ok livinitup, we don't agree.

Joe, the qualifiers were not of my invention, they were part of the question. I tried to answer question as it was asked, not throw in extraneous information or non reality based fantasy advice. Again I feel the test of an idea is does it work, would you stake your life on it. I would stake my life on the advice I have given here, but I wouldn't feel the same about some of the other suggestions either comparatively or on their own merits.


 I think that answering the guys obviously naive question with as much practicality and straightforwardness as possible is the right thing to do. I think that anyone who actually goes and either uses what I was reccomending or does enough research to understand the power and utility of some of these rifles, and still thinks they would be better off a sling shot (rarely ever lethal, if you want to argue with me on that, go and find 500 individual events where a sling shot was used to stop a crime and post links in this thread.) Or some other method that requires contact with the intruder, then that person is not treating this subject with the respect it deserves. I'm talking about a tool that when used properly, can be as effective in the situations we are talking about. Not as effective as a shotgun or pistol or rifle. But more effective than a hand thrown rock, or a sharp stick, or or a mini pistol crossbow, or whatever else stuff people pulled off their cuff above. Anyway, again, I hope this guy finds a home defense  system that works for him.

Offline flippydidit

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2012, 02:04:32 AM »
Blademan,

You did completely miss my sarcasm AS IT WAS INTENDED.  You didn't miss that I used it.  So I will clarify why I think purchasing a hundred trained weasels to assault a home intruder is more viable than an air gun.

The original poster's own words:

Quote
"I am just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on airguns, specifically replicas being used as self defense.

I suspect that a lot of the power and control that can be derived from a gun comes before a round is left off.  Is it foolish to try to bluff with an airgun?

Obviously the real thing is better, but if the real thing couldn't be easily obtained, or wasn't wanted for whatever reason, could someone be secure with an airgun?"

Nowhere in the post does this person ask about SHOOTING the air gun to defend themselves.  The OP wants to know the value of an air gun to secure their home by using it to bluff an intruder into thinking it's the real thing.

Quote
I am just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on airguns, specifically replicas being used as self defense.

Whether or not you choose to take some of the OP and run with your own ideas is fine with me blademan.  Just try to understand that we were answering the OP's question.  Not taking some of the question and then extrapolating some fantastical plan about how we're going to fend off an armed home invasion with a pellet rifle.
 
Quote
Go get some actual training in dynamic tactical home defense and see if anyone in that group would pick a chain saw.

For your information, I don't attend any "dynamic tactical home defense" training schools for a few reasons.  First, I think if you're going to instruct something, you should have actually done it.  So for this school to work for me, it would have to be instructed by someone who has actually fought off a home invasion.  Even if there was such a "tactical" school, I also doubt if anyone in that group would pick up a pellet rifle either.

If your choice is to advise the OP on how to make home defense viable with a high powered air rifle, then you'll get no complaints from me.  There are many people in the world for whom that may be their only lethal choice.  Just don't think that I'm going to stop answering silly questions with silly answers when someone wants to know if an air rifle should be used to bluff a potentially life threatening armed intruder.

My professions as a soldier and gunsmith have given me quite a bit of experience with weapon systems of all kinds.  Your assumption that I know nothing about high powered air rifles is unfounded and inaccurate.  I know quite a bit about them, and even use them myself.  However, I decided to be a gunsmith.  Not an air rifle smith.  Do you need to guess why?

Offline blademan

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2012, 11:58:21 AM »
Flippy,
   I apologize, I wasn't trying to insult you. And I did understand both that you were using sarcasm and why. I also understood the tone of the OP's question. And I think that if you look at my posts you will see that I answered the part about using the airgun or any gun as a a bluff. The answer is absolutely not. But since he asked about general self defense, I answered that too. Home defense is self defense in the home, so since that's the best use of air rifles as self defense, I confined my answer to that.
   The point is that while everyone was giving sarcastic and really unrealistic and unsafe answers, no one really gave a good answer as to what to use instead. The best answer was a basball bat and or pepper spray. Those are fine as long as the dude breaking in doesn't have a gun. You have to take a basball bat and to some extent pepper spray to the bad guy for it to work. It seems like people here are answering the question from the point of view of using a Red Ryder to try to get someone to leave. I specifically mentioned air rifles capable of lethal force because using anything less is usually a mistake.
  I am not saying they are as lethal or effective as a real gun, THEY ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN A BASEBALL BAT FROM ALL RANGES in which either are effective.
      I do have a problem with answering the poster's question with useless and asinine responses, they are pointless and rude. If the guy was being purposely stupid, the that's cool give him all the crap you want, I'll help. But since this guy was simply naïve, I think its wrong to smart off to him and not offer any actual help. For the record, I agree that using a replica firearm to try to control a situation is STUPID. I will agree with that all day.
   Point out how I went off on a fantastical idea of how I was going to repel an armed home invasion. I don't think I was being fantastical at all. If you take a baseball bat to a gun fight, you will probably end up just as dead as the guy bringing a knife to one. At least my option gives you the option to fight from behind cover and from a distance.
   I take it then flippy that you haven't used lethal force to repel a home invasion? Neither haven't and I hope I never do. That experience isn't necessary to answer this question. Its a matter or logic, will this work, will it work better than the other options over a broader range of scenarios? The answer to both questions is yes.
   Flippy I think you are wrong, if you gave a tactical firearms instructor the choice between defending his home with a knife, baseball bat, pepper spray, asp baton, bow and arrow, and a high power air rifle capable of ending someone's life, I bet that the guy is going to choose the projectile weapon most similar in form and function to a real gun. It probably won't be the only tool he chooses but the again swat teams carry mor than just guns don't they.  I mean maybe we should suggest that this guy use flashbang grenades to defend his home. They would work. They are neither legal or practical. Air rifles are usually both.
    I say this because most of the time it doesn't pay off to take two or three technological steps backward when all you have to take is one. I could be wrong here. I just think that being able to take a bad guy down from a distance is better than having to get up close and personal.
   And flippy you didn't really defend your position, either by pointing out flaws in mine or by actually suggesting an alternative. All you did was use sarcasm again when it was neither warranted or effective.  There is no reason actual resason you can give that the weapons I suggested would not work for the purpose given as a rule. There are only preferences. I prefer to have something that is the most like a firearm in the absence of a firearm. You may prefer to go up against a guy who has a gun with a bat or whatever else, I leave you to you preferences.
   The high power, large caliber repeating or non repeating air rifle is a good home defense option in the absence of real guns. Is it the only thing one should rely on?
No, neither is a real gun. Its not even the best solution in some situations.
Each situation has its own set of solutions. Same with a real gun.
    Is having to use an air rifle to defend my home and or life with a situation I would want to be in? No. Would I use it if that was what was available to me? Yes. That is my point.
   I understand and agree with your comment about why you became a gun smith. But then again, we are dealing with a situation in which a real gun isn't an option.
   Anyway, there's not much more new stuff to say on this topic, I answered the question realistically and some other people chose to take a less mature stance.

   In review:
1. The RIGHT high powered large caliber air rifle (not pistol) is a good PART of a home defense SYSTEM in the absence of firearms
2. You should train with your air rifle to defend your home with your air rifle the same as you would with a real gun.
3. Develop a home defense system that is redundant and multifaceted. Implement, maintain, and train with this system.
4. If at all possible get a real gun, air guns are not optimal home defense tools, but will work if the real thing isn't available.
5. The right air rifle is pretty expensive. You have to have hand pump, a scuba tank (at least one) and the hoses and fittings to fill the rifle's reservoir. These are not included in the price of the rifle usually. This makes the use of the air rifle more complicated, so this means training is very vital.

    I got nothing else on this topic and as the OP hasn't participated since the original post, o don't see any reason to keep arguing. I wast just trying to help someone who was obviously naïve about self defense.

Offline livinitup0

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2012, 12:30:34 PM »
"THEY ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN A BASEBALL BAT FROM ALL RANGES in which either are effective."

highly subjective imo. my effective striking range is about 3000x more with a baseball bat than it is with a bb gun. that being said theres a trade-off with having to be close range with a bat. The trade off with your preferred weapon is that you have an effective striking range the size of a pea.....if the weapon even works properly.

it comes down to training and picking a weapon thats comfortable for you....We get it....for you that weapon is a bb gun. That doesnt mean its "better" than anything other than a gun for the rest of us.

Offline blademan

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2012, 02:39:09 PM »
 Livinitup,
   I am NOT talking about a red ryder bb gun. If you want to understand what I am talking about go look up the benjamin sheridan rogue epcp air rifle in .357 go look up the say yang hunting air rifles in 9mm .45 and .50 cal. Do you understand that livinitup, FIFTY CALIBER!!!! THE SAME AS A DESERT EAGLE!!!! No its not as powerful, but it is the same caliber and it would kill an intruder. Maybe not with the first shot. But neither do all hand guns or rifles.
 Again I am not talking about a bb gun. These are comprable to revolutionary era smooth bore muskets in power with the added benefit of rifling and modern breech loading design and in some cases a magazine fed system. They shoot bullets, not pellets of bbs. Just because they don't use powder and don't go bang, (actually they do bang) doesn't mean they don't have power.
  So in home defense ranges, this is a better alternative than a baseball bat because it will kill an intruder from across your house. Short of throwing your bat or hittung balls at someone with it, you can't do that with a bat. I mean what is unclear here? There are air rifles out there of a power and configuration that while not as good as a real gun are better than most other non projectile weapons for home defense in most situations.

   They are better than most other non projectile weapons for the same reason than a real gun is. The allow you to deliver threat ending power beyond your immediate physical reach hopefully from behind cover in a strategically advantageous position.
   
    So if you would like to continune to be insulting, at least know what you are talking about. I mean ask yourself this, do you really want to go up against some one whose fighting skill level you do not know, whose level of armament is unknown, probably late at night half asleep, probably in the dark, in CQB? What if he has a buddy you didn't see? I know that I wouldn't. But maybe the concept of a lethal and functioning air gun is too much for you to contemplate in a mature adult fashion. Not only would you want to, is it really the right thing to do? Does it give you the best chance of success or a better chance of success than shooting someone with a lethal weapon from 5-15 yards away? I really don't know why we are still sniping at each other over this subject, I already argeed that we don't agree, that is usually offered by the person who can't win the argument with reason and logic with a person who won't accept bravado, machismo, and emotional agruments as valid points of discussion. I accepted your concession and now you are back taking pot shots at me after you surrendered. That's bad form sir! :P
 And since the range of these air rifles is anywhere from 50 to 100 yards, how long are your arms that your striking range is 3000x greater?  Or was that another failed and unnecessary attempt at sarcasm? Just so you know, I will repeat, I am not speaking about BB guns. They don't shoot BBs. So if you have any real arguments to put forth that are germane and not cheap, ineffective jabs, then do so. Othewise, remain silent. Thanks.

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Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2012, 02:44:13 PM »
I've thought about that for killing squirrels and such. Any suggestions for a good air gun with scope that has no noise for that type of thing?
I bought my RWS Model 34 .22 caliber from Airguns of Arizona over the summer when I was having some critter problems in the garden.  At 30' I have 5 round groups that you could cover with a dime.  Beyond 50' accuracy definitely drops off quickly.  You'll need to buy a variety of different pellets when you first get it so you can dial in which pellet works best for your gun.  There is a huge amount of variation and I've found a 21.3gr pellet had the tightest groups in my particular rifle.  Yes, it'll kill squirrels and rabbits, maybe even a skunk, but I wouldn't try it on anything larger or more robust (not coyotes or porcupines).

None of them are silent.  While the sound of the pellet hitting a steel bullet trap is louder than the gun itself, don't expect any modern high power air rifle to be anything close to silent.  I suspect my 10/22 firing CB Caps is slightly quieter than my air rifle, but it's more of a springy sound than a bullet's report, so more socially acceptable for my neighbors.