Author Topic: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests  (Read 9527 times)

Offline Scottman

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Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« on: May 26, 2012, 10:03:57 AM »
Having the 1322 "fail" on a 10 yard broadside shot- broke shoulder, didn't kill the animal, I was sort of dumbfounded. A 22 rifle would have killed the animal on that shot. I decided to do some tests on a number 10 coffee can. Testing was done with the 1322 and my 1377. All guns were shot with 10 pumps. 

Entry on the side with the 1322. RWS super point pellets. Almost ripped in.


Failed to penetrate the second side. Hmmmm


In contrast, these are exits with the 1377 with crosman pointed pellets on the second side of the can. As you can see, two did not go through the second side, but put a crack in it.


Here's some failures with the 1322 to penetrate one side of the can. You can even see a pellet lodged in on one side. In contrast, the 1377 always punched through.


Offline RPZ

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2012, 10:36:53 AM »
You do not say what kind of animal it was; these guns are only good for head shots on squirrels maybe - very close up - and birds.

There are exceptions I know, but you have to step up to an air weapon that throws pellets out at reasonable velocities to take body shots on rabbits etc, and even then you will need to get good heart/lung placement behind the forelegs on broadside profiles.

There are some very powerful air weapons that surpass cartridges like the .22 rimfires, but the Crosman 1322/77 are not going to come close.

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2012, 10:54:33 AM »
I have read, but not experienced, that the .177 at 1000 fps will pass thru a small varmint whereas a .22 pellet at 850 fps will take it out.

Offline Scottman

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2012, 11:34:23 AM »
Red squirrel. Head shots are a big no no with low powered weapons.

Offline RPZ

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2012, 04:50:45 PM »
I have read, but not experienced, that the .177 at 1000 fps will pass thru a small varmint whereas a .22 pellet at 850 fps will take it out.
That is a good general guide.

Red squirrel. Head shots are a big no no with low powered weapons.
My experience is that the .177s will penetrate better than .22s; .177 pellet at low velocity might crack a large squirrel skull at very short distances. If you get a clean broadside shot and can slip one in behind the front leg in the chest that might work too.

Otherwise I think you need to be using a rifle with velocities in the 850/1,000 fps category mentioned above. Even then I would still keep ranges very short.

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2012, 07:48:14 PM »
I just ordered the RWS 34, no scope.

Offline Scottman

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2012, 08:25:25 PM »
I was comparing these because they are a lightweight option. 2 lbs of gun and 1 lb of pellets is a good amount of woodsbummin ammo.

My glock conversion kit and 500 super colibri weigh as much as a 1377/1322 and 1 lb of pellets. The 22 kit with super colibris still has a good Pop to them.The 13 plus 36 ounces= 3 lbs
Instead of the 22 conversion kit and 500 super colibri: Crosman 1377 with 946pellets.
or: Crosman 1322 with 489 pellets.


If I wanted more power (with more weight) I'd just use a 22 rimfire, or sub loads.

I killed a fox squirrel right behind the front shoulder with the 1377. Took a couple steps and was dead.

I've used my 2100 also. I usually target the spine near the head/neck. Once I hit the shoulder on a fox squirrel with it and broke his shoulder, but didnt' kill it. Right behind the front shoulder works.




Offline RPZ

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2012, 10:44:47 PM »
I can see the lightweight attraction. Just going to have to pick your shots carefully.

Offline Scottman

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2012, 12:25:54 PM »
 had to get some experience with these guns. It seems the 1322 isn't fairing as high as I had hoped so far.

The 1377 with 1 lb of pellets is still a lot of shooting (946) for things a sub load/22 lr would be waste. I see plenty of chimpmunks/birds in killing range on a daily stroll. I once shot a squirrel with a benjamin .20 rifle in the head, and fractured his skull. He climbed up the tree and fell 10 minutes later. I've done similar to red squirrels with my crosman 2100. I mostly shoot soft targets now.

I try to get my own experiences with items.

Maybe I should get some pba or rocket ammo for the 22 and do some penetration tests.

I also ran across this, not sure if they make it for the 1322 or if it increases weight. http://crosmods.com/performance.html But 700 fps out of the 1377 is ahhh, pretty good power to weight ratio for an airgun. That's just about my 2100.

hmmmm I think I could put a good amount of meat in the pot with that. Especially with the high performance 177 pellets if they really do make a big difference ( without an increase in weight).

I was focusing on these two pistols because of that: power to weight. The heavier air guns have the higher weigh penalty obviously. Which I wonder if they start to encroach upon what should be taking up that bulk and weight: a more versatile weapon.

I wanted to experiment with these two pistols to see if they could somehow fit into the "mobile system". I'm not sure if the 3 lbs of airgun/pellets for what they can kill isn't better served with traps. For example, 3 lbs= 48 mouse traps on weight, not bulk.

The thought of me stalking that wood cock with the hammond game getter and the saiga came to my mind..... How if I or someone in my party had that crosman 1377 we have 946 pellets for 3 lbs of gun and ammo.... that seems to offer opportunities for game based on my experience so far that a 22 rimfire or sub load might be a waste based on weight of the consumable ammo.




http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/08/pellet_rifle_hunting_by_dm.html


Offline Scottman

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2012, 06:40:56 PM »
I'm shooting at a can that the 1377 with ten pumps can not shoot through the bottom with pointed pellets at about 7 paces. The 1377 with the pba ammo can shoot through the bottom, and one of the sides, but not pass through both sides of the can.

I tried the 1322, (same distance/same 10 pumps), with the lead wadcutters. No penetration on the bottom, no penetration on the sides. So I try the 22 pba ammo, ten pumps, same distance. Went through the bottom, all the time! Went through 1 side, all the time. The pba pellets are hardly deformed...

I think this might be a case of actual construction of the bullet may be a leading factor in penetration of a hard target. I might have to try other non lead projectiles. Either way if I get out small game hunting this weekend one of the 13xx's is coming with me with some pba ammo for close range shots.

Offline technicalanarchy

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2012, 09:41:38 PM »
I.killed.a.opposum with a.crossman 760 last.week. Well ok the bb broke his back I think it was the shovel that killed him. I hate opposums. Pellets would have done better but I couldn't find them quick enough. Would have helped if I had rear sights on it too.

I thought Id just irritate it away. Shoot you could put an eye out with that thing. Now I want to scope it.

I dont like to kill anything but he was.in my dogs pin. Id hand wrestle a grizzly for that little fellow.
Thanks,
Mike

Offline Scottman

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2012, 04:14:34 PM »
I've shot a possum in the eyes with the 1377 didn't do anything- pointed pellets.

Offline Scottman

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2012, 02:53:11 PM »
Last week the 1322 was used at PB to dispatch some rabbits. It did the job on head shots with wadcutters, entry but no exit.

I put in a mellon air valve and piston http://www.mellonair.com/index.php?p=1_11_FT-Piston-Valves

I tried it on the tougher of the two cans that were previously used in testing. On the bottom of the can, the 1322 + P with crosman pointed pellets will not penetrate the bottom, but will put a crack in the can. The unmodified 1377 with pointed pellets will put a dent in the can, but no cracks. The 1377 with the pba ammo will penetrate the bottom. The 1322 + P will not penetrate the sides of the tough can, neither will the un modded 1377 with pointed pellets. The unmodded 1377 with the pba ammo will.


On the other can, as noted, the unmodified 1322 would sometimes not penetrate the bottom of the can, or only penetrate one side. Now, with new valve/piston from mellon air, the gun will penetrate the bottom of the can, and it will drill through both sides of the can with crosman pointed pellets (which is what the un modded 1377 was doing with pointed pellets).

Distance was about 7 yards.

Offline blademan

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2012, 01:30:14 AM »
Hello,
   I read your post and I would like to make a suggestion. With a few really expensive pcp type pistols, the air pistol is severely underpowered for all but the really close up shots.
   An air rifle is a much better than a pistol. The are a little heavier and more expensive but you get that offset by the additional accuracy, power and range. The Benjamin NP XL Trail rifle is a pretty good choice for this. Its a single stroke gas piston. They have it at pyramid air. Its a little under $300 and is scoped without iron sights. Those could possibly be installed though. It is beefy, weighing in at just under 10 lbs. It comes in 17, 22, and 25 cals.
 The 25 is advertised at 900 fps with lead free pellets and about 700 with lead. 700 fps with .25 cal is a squirrel anchor! The .177 is rated at 1500 fps with lead free pellets and a little less with lead pellets. The 22 is rated at 1100 with lead free pellets. Its cocking effort is 47 pounds.
   I just thought I light make the suggestion. Give it a look and see what you think.
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Offline blademan

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2012, 10:15:26 AM »
It was really late when I made the above post and I am typing on a blackberry and have fat thumbs. I should have said "with the exception of a few really expensive, complex and gear heavy pcp type air pistols, most, not all air pistols are a little under powered for small game hunting at any decent range. There are other errors, but they are not so bad as to obfuscate my meaning. Thanks.
Man's mind is his basic tool of survival.
Fear is the mind killer.

Two rules for a happy life:
1. Never sling shit at an armed man.
2. Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.

Offline Scottman

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2012, 01:37:50 PM »
Hey Blademan!

These two pistols I have been killing game with, they do there job inside their limitations (like every tool). Those rifles are much larger and heavier then these pistols. They would be a waste in my bag, when I would be carrying a real firearm that would take up the same space/ but be much more versatile. I'd much rather have a good firearm and possibly the air pistol then a heavier/bulkier/ more powerful airgun.

If one is just hunting from a fixed location those are good! Just like a 22, sub load, or shotgun.

Offline blademan

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2012, 02:58:23 PM »
Scott,
 Yeah, I was kinda worried about that. If you can and want to carry a firearm, its almost always the way to go. I'm pretty big and packhorseish, so I don't mind the added weight as a .25 air rifle can do almost everything a smaller cal air gun can do within its range better. There are some special cases, but its a pretty good small game/ pest dropper at decent ranges. As to your penetration issue, how old is your gun? I'm not terribly familiar with those, but I seem to remeber reading somthing about seals or something that sometimes dry out or need replacing to keep getting the top velocity out of it. Again, I don't know that much about the pistols, just trying to help. I may look at some other boards to see if I can find anything because I'm thinking about getting one in .22 as my first air pistol because of the price and in a nod to your reasoning, its compactness. Do you know of any holsters that would attach to the outside of a pack? Its a bit of a long iron to go on the belt with my body type so is I could slide it into the space between the frame pad and frame on my alice pack, that would be out of the way and still in reach while back packing.  Hope you get it punching hard again.
Man's mind is his basic tool of survival.
Fear is the mind killer.

Two rules for a happy life:
1. Never sling shit at an armed man.
2. Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.

Offline blademan

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2012, 03:45:36 PM »
Scott,
   Did some looking, found a forum here:
http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php
   
 I didn't see anything super helpful in the ten minutes I browsed but I'm sure its there or will lead you to help. Didn't see your post there so I didn't know if you had seen it.
Man's mind is his basic tool of survival.
Fear is the mind killer.

Two rules for a happy life:
1. Never sling shit at an armed man.
2. Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.

Offline Scottman

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2012, 08:02:01 PM »
Both my guns are new, so the seals are good. I just shot a rabbit at 7 yds with the 1322 with the new valve piston, head shot instant kill.

Any holster should do if it fits. I carry one in the side pocket of the x2 pack. They barely fit in a military buttpack. Foraging basket ok.

Offline flippydidit

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2012, 12:15:29 AM »
We were using a Crosman rifle (don't know the model) to shoot cottontails.  We knew that it wouldn't be powerful enough for one shot kills, so we modified our "technique".  One of us would shoot, and the second would run up to where it was flopping and screeching.  The runner would quickly stomp on the rabbit's head to crush the skull, and end the suffering.  While it may seem cruel to some, it was being done in an equine stable where the bunnies had infested terribly and were devastating the feed.  Shooting firearms was not only prohibited in that area, but would have been a bad idea around expensive horses (silly liability).

Just thought I'd mention this technique to assist with those who aren't able to use the most effective airguns.
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Offline blademan

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2012, 02:43:31 AM »
Sounds like a plan flippy. I worked a a big box grocery store where a starling or sparrow got trapped in the back room. A couple guys offered to bring a pellet rifle up and be done with it in a few minutes. Of course we couldn't have weapons at work now could we? They said they would get the pest control guy to put out a few glue traps and wait for the bird to land on it. So instead of probably not more than 15 minutes worth of waiting for a good shot, it went on for at least a few days, flying around the stock room with open bulk foods and grains and such. Made perfect sense to me. Of course if you were there flippy you could have karate chopped it in mid flight! That's a nod to your extreme hunting pic.
   But yeah, these crossmans look like a good little first air pistol to get for the money. I may get that as my christmas present to me this year.
Man's mind is his basic tool of survival.
Fear is the mind killer.

Two rules for a happy life:
1. Never sling shit at an armed man.
2. Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.

Offline Scottman

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2012, 12:57:18 PM »
I seriously doubt you'll regret it. I haven't even really taken my crosman 2100 out yet this year. The 1377 will match it in velocity with a new piston and valve and is a lot less bulky and weighs less.

A good hawk/cold steel shovel etc is effective on finishing off game.

Offline blademan

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2012, 02:28:29 PM »
Yeah,
   I have a marbles machete for finishing blows but a trucker's tire knocker is a good choice for that too. I'm just stuck choosing between the pistol and a higher power .25 rifle.
  I really want a pcp rifle but that's just beyond what I can afford at the moment. But I think the price point is going to win out.  Prolly have to stop by academy or wally world soo and get one. In your experience do those need a break in or are they pretty much good to go?
 
Man's mind is his basic tool of survival.
Fear is the mind killer.

Two rules for a happy life:
1. Never sling shit at an armed man.
2. Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.

Offline Scottman

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Re: Topic: Crosman 1377 and 1322 penetration tests
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2012, 03:20:06 PM »
These guns cost me more then what you can find them online- because they are registered hanguns in MI.

For heading out on a specific goal of hunting small game: most likely the 25. For me rimfire/centerfire subload.

For general woods stolling/ foraging, exploring, a bag system, the pistol wins in my experience. It comes along for the ride because it can fit into the system easily.

Mine didn't need a breakin period in the sense of not being able to shoot small game accurately at the distance I would shoot small game with this power of a weapon.

They are fun and cheap to shoot!  :)

I think your .25 needs a friend