Paintball Marker as a home defense aid?

[Economan]

I was just thinking today about this idea: How could I leverage my Tippman 98 custom paintball marker in a SHTF home defense situation.  Here's what I came up with, and I'd like your thoughts on it.

1) My marker looks incredibly mil-sim without the hopper on, or while using a hopper that mounts below the barrell.  If I use Not much use like that, but unless you KNOW it's a paintball marker.  This is probably as serious stretch, but for the uninitiated to firearms or paintball, the marker looks like a serious weapon.

2) My marker shoots a .68cal (which could be a frozen paintball of made of some kind of hardwood) ~300fps, but with the capacity to shoot at ~600fps (though much less accurately).  It's non-lethal, but can dish out some pain.  There's a reason we wear head and face protection while playing.  Anyone that has been hit in the hands, neck, or top of the head can attest - it will break skin, leave a huge welt, and bruise. 

3) With my response trigger, I can shoot 10-12 rounds per second, and my under-barrel hopper holds ~120 rounds. I have extra hoppers that are locked and loaded as well (~600 total rnds in the hoopers, with another ~300 in my tac vest as well), with a remote air system and extra air as well, I can last for LONG games (or other scenarios).

The way I would envision this playing out is a team response to a non-tactical threat.  Obviously, if some dudes show up with AR-15's, I've brought a knife to a gun fight.  If it's a normal, "Hey we want your food and we have baseball bats!" type threat, or even one in which there's one or two firearms on opposition, I could leverage the paintball marker along with my other guns (assuming I have people to use these weapons) to provide cover fire and suppress advances from the opposition.

Getting hit with a paintball in the face would be like getting punched.  It's not lethal, and might not deter the extremely determined, but no one wants to get hit like that.  In my mind it's more of a way to extend the reach and speed of my fist. 

Thoughts?

[SheepdogSurvival]

The time and effort it would take to procure any ammo (wood balls or OC pepper balls) which would likely only work with limited effect and only on relatively unmotivated subjects makes it kinda pointless to me. Paintball gun for defense against people=FAIL.

However I see it being useful to fend off nuisance animals though, especially the OC pepper paintballs. 

[cmxterra]

Obviously, if some dudes show up with AR-15's, I've brought a knife to a gun fight.

Thoughts?

Not even that. You brought something that will get you killed.

[Alan Georges]

Not even that. You brought something that will get you killed.

I concur.

Also, checking your profile, you are in Idaho.  Using a real firearm to fend off a threatening group wielding baseball bats is probably just fine with the local police and courts in your state, but getting into an extended pissing match by trying to defend with a marker leaves you (a) legally exposed (you could put an eye out with that thing), and as cmxterra pointed out (b) dead.  It gives all the problems of escalating to armed conflict with none of the advantages.

I agree that a well-tuned marker can put out impressive volumes of fire, and using a sub-lethal defense method has a certain reasonable, merciful, and measured response appeal to it.  But given the current legal climate, and the fact that that you could legally only be using it in a "this is for real and we're playing for keeps" scenario anyway, using anything less than a real gun is inviting trouble.

[blademan]

Economan,
    I have to agree with the other posters here. And for all the reasons they said and another one that sort of relates. If you use your marker with improvised ammo, it may malfunction, (I'm not a paintballer, but I think this is a general rule with projectile launchers.)
  Also, using even functional improvised ammo may not be as effective as you think, a hardwood ball the size of a paintball would probably be heavier than a paint ball which would reduce velocity and energy.
   The other thing is that even in a perfect situation regarding functionality, some people react very differently than you expect to pain in extreme situations. It may actually make the situation worse. They may become more determined to continue their assault. And if they win, and subdue you and your group, who do you think they are going to be pretty upset with? I've heard stories about how in vietnam, when a group of american soldiers were taken prisoner by the enemy, the guy with the shotgun didn't get taken prisoner. He got the shotgun used on him. The reason for this is that despite its fatal reputation, the shotgun is not always instantly fatal, it does a really good job of stopping the threat, but sometimes it takes a long painful time to die, and the vc hated shotguns for this reason. Thids may or may not be true, but the principle is sound, inflicting pain on people doesn't generally garner good will.
    So, use the marker on pests, for fun, and trail marking. I would only use it for self defense, if it was in my hand or the only weapon near when I needed it. I would only use standard ammo and probably try to blast to the face if I could but I would givem as much of it as I could while trying to get as far away as possible as fast as possible, if possible.
   Its not the worst idea I have heard, but its a pretty crappy way to plan when there are more effective measures to use.
    If you were part of a group defending a property against a party of invaders or potential invaders, and you wanted a less lethal but still very effective method, look for some less lethal shotgun rounds, (I don't know if they are civilian avaiable) and things like tazers, and riot control pepper spray canisters, train, and carry and deploy those measures effectively. Just my thoughts on the matter. Just for balance, I have heard on news about invasions and crimes being stopped with paintball markers, but not often enough to plan it as a primary, secondary, or even tertiary or even quaternary measure. They were always instantaneous response scenarios and unplanned. Hope this helps you choose wisely one your tactics and equipment.

[Chemsoldier]

No.

Save money, buy another gun. Oh lords I cant believe I am about to say this...I would rather have a hi-point than a marker any day...and the hi-point is likely cheaper than a decent marker.

[jlknauff]

FWIW - frozen paint balls will just roll out of your barrel. When they freeze, they contract, so there is no seal between the ball and barrel. That means no pressure, and no velocity. Completely ineffective.

[Shaunypoo]

I had someone the other day ask me why don't I just use my paintball marker for home defense.  I just looked at her.  I asked her she has ever been hit with a paintball.  She said no.  I told her they are not a deterent.  I have also been hit with frozen paintballs.  Left a nasty welt, but not as bad as the welt the guy got who shot one at me. 

If this is what you are depending on to defend your home in ANY circumstance, you have a severe deficiency in your preps.

[sdcharger]

Paintball?  Not even close.  Pepperball, maybe?

Pepperball is a less lethal technology that I have used against hundreds of inmates during riots.  It has a very limited application - to deliver OC to a target.  OC is commonly the lowest form of force in law enforcement.  Lower than using your hands.

The launchers are essentially paintball guns.  If you could get your hands on the OC projectiles they would work in your launcher but they don't sell them to the general public.  The delivery system is unreliable, as the very nature of paint markers make them so.  We would frequently encounter problems with the launchers so we would bring several to the scene and hope one or more would work.  Anyone who has ever played paintball can imagine the problems you may encounter with the equipment - nothing you want to place odds on.

My opinion of the pepperball product is that it has no use at your home or as a part of your defensive battery.  As an OC delivery system for a riot team, sure.  Buy yourself an extra large sized OC can for your house instead, if you want some less lethal deterents.  They actually work when you need them.

[blademan]

Honestly, while I am not arguing against the use of pepper spray as a part of home defense, I would prefer the pepperball option over the riot can otpion. IF, the reliability was there. Apparently, its not according to Charger. The reason for this is that, with a riot can, you will contaminate the air in your house with oc and this could be a bad issue if you were dealing with more than one person as an intruder. The collateral contamination is greatly reduced with the pepper ball to my understading, and you have the benefit of the distraction of the impact of the ball which can be delivered in rapid succession, to great effect. Still though, while no one tool is the best tool and your home defense syatem shoudnt just consist of "shotgun" or "pistol" or "cricket bat" or what have you, if I was or had to incoproate an air powered solution into my system, I would skip the paintball or pepper ball altogether in most scenarios and go with some of the high power high caliber hunting air rifles that I have mentioned above. I know I'm beating a dead horse here but even cold flying lead beats a paint or pepperball.  All day.

[pokeshell]

FWIW - frozen paint balls will just roll out of your barrel. When they freeze, they contract, so there is no seal between the ball and barrel. That means no pressure, and no velocity. Completely ineffective.

Maybe not with the new guns, but we froze and shot paintballs around 1988ish. Shot them till we had a very close call. Frozen will easily shoot out a car side window, dent a car, kill a squirrel, shoot through a radiator, a microwave door, just about anthing you can imagine 16 year olds will shoot at. It will also go though a football helmet at 40 feet and send your friend to the hopital with a cracked skull. We were being "safe" and the helmet saved his life. I would imagine that in 25 years that the guns can only be more powerfull.

But, you can purchase a shotgun for $99 and have real home self defence.

[Economan]

Maybe not with the new guns, but we froze and shot paintballs around 1988ish. Shot them till we had a very close call. Frozen will easily shoot out a car side window, dent a car, kill a squirrel, shoot through a radiator, a microwave door, just about anthing you can imagine 16 year olds will shoot at. It will also go though a football helmet at 40 feet and send your friend to the hopital with a cracked skull. We were being "safe" and the helmet saved his life. I would imagine that in 25 years that the guns can only be more powerfull.

But, you can purchase a shotgun for $99 and have real home self defence.

The OC or ^^ This is more what I am thinking.  I have seen a typical paintball sail straight through a chicken.  It wouldn't be my first choice by any means.  But I think that if you have one... use it.  I think it would be better than having absolutely nothing to use at a distance.  I would be much better with this than a slingshot or sling, and probably do more damage.  I have seen a frozen paintball take out a window, crack a fiberglass basketball backboard, and do some serious damage to a road sign.  I'm guessing it might be able to knock out a bad guy or two.

Again, not for the only weapon or even first line of defense.  But if you've got more people than guns, I think it might be better than nothing.

[blademan]

Its all goint to come down to tactics. IF you had to do this, and I am dead set AGAINST this use of a marker, you would need to utilize this person from a highly mobile and extremely well protected position, relying on them to provide harrassment and distraction as a force multiplier.  Using this person as a stationary firing position with a static field of fire would almost certainly be sacrificing them with absolutely minimal benefit. The training needed for this type of work would be intense, and couple that with the limited range of a marker, and its relative anemic power, you would have to have one hell of a unique situation for me to consider giving the nod on this tactic.
You make a good point with the more people than guns scenario. There are some people who will say that people without a gun shouldn't be in a gun fight.  And they are right. I agree wholeheartedly. %100. No arguments in a normal situation.
 If you are still talking about a repelling an invasion type of scenario, then before you give someone a paintball marker and tell them to hit shit that moves, I would see if that person can fullfill some other necessary and useful task during the fight. Such as reloading something if you are talking about an extended engagement or running logistics or combat coordination, I'm not sure if those are the right words for what I'm thinking but I think they are clear enough for what I mean. If you are in the situation where every bit of whatever flying toward your enemy is what's going to carry the day, then do what you have to do. I personally think that archery or a crossbow solution is probably more effective in the sense of threat resolutions per shot.
    You are still talking about a situation in which you have firearms and plan on having more.
  I appreciate the lateral thinking and creative problem solving and crowd sourcing approach you are using, but I hope that short of a hail mary type of situation, or if you can safely use less lethal force to solve a problem, you use the right or most appropriate tool available to solve your defense needs.

[Economan]

+1 Blademan

[blademan]

Thanks economan,  trust me I'm all about creative defense solutions. Trust me I do a lot of thinking about non ballistic defense solutions or alternative ballistic solutions. Its nice to know or have if you need it, but its better to have the real thing. I really liked this thread, a lot of different opinions on this.

[Shaunypoo]

Sounds to me like the limiting factor is ammo, if you are going to use a marker for home defense at all.  Frozen paintballs will hurt like hell and will deter many from continuing.  But you are refilling the paintball marker nightly, at least once, with frozen paintballs, and by morning they will have completely thawed.  And if you do that over and over again to a paintball, it will lose any elasticity and will very quickly become deformed and the marker will be rendered unusable until thoroughly cleaned.  You would have to be diligent about removing the paintballs every morning and refilling them every evening.  And if you had a gun and were being broken in to, you probably would have used it.  Now the intruders will wonder why you didn't use a gun and might be willing to come back.  Probably not, but you never know, they were dumb enough to break into a house the first time, maybe they will be dumb enough to try your house again.

The other alternative is some kind of sphere that is the same caliber as a paintball.  I believe they are .68, but don't quote me with that.  A bearing, whether metal, wood, or even glass, would pack a wallop and you would get in a ton of trouble knowingly putting that in your marker.  You would go to jail defending with that.

Nevermind, get a shotgun.  The piece of mind alone is worth the difference in price.  And you can hunt with it and even skeet shoot for fun.  The versatility alone is worth the difference in price.

I'm sorry, what was the question again?

[blademan]

"Yep" leans against the fence and hands shauny a beer.
Deffinitely worth the price difference. And with some markers and some shotguns, the difference I in the favor of the shotgun anyhow.

 

[StephenInSC]

Off topic but your paintball marker could be a good garden defense aid against four legged thieves when you are worried about property / garden damage. Its probably excessive force against two legged garden thieves though.

[blademan]

Yeah you could use the paintball as a pest control tool. And I'm not totally against it. Its a bit of a wonky thing though. I don't like just hurting an animal, pain is one thing, but injury is another thing altogether. Something like a rabbit or squirrle, a paintball might or not kill and could just injure the heck out of it so I'm going to put a run around a garden if possible and put a dog in it.
   Now, for larger pests, like possum, coyotes, foxes, even the occasional deer if you can get close enough, the painball may spook it enough to keep it from comming back. It has some uses. But I'm not sure there aren't things that do it better.

[pokeshell]

Sounds to me like the limiting factor is ammo, if you are going to use a marker for home defense at all.  Frozen paintballs will hurt like hell and will deter many from continuing.  But you are refilling the paintball marker nightly, at least once, with frozen paintballs, and by morning they will have completely thawed.  And if you do that over and over again to a paintball, it will lose any elasticity and will very quickly become deformed and the marker will be rendered unusable until thoroughly cleaned.  You would have to be diligent about removing the paintballs every morning and refilling them every evening.  And if you had a gun and were being broken in to, you probably would have used it.  Now the intruders will wonder why you didn't use a gun and might be willing to come back.  Probably not, but you never know, they were dumb enough to break into a house the first time, maybe they will be dumb enough to try your house again.

The other alternative is some kind of sphere that is the same caliber as a paintball.  I believe they are .68, but don't quote me with that.  A bearing, whether metal, wood, or even glass, would pack a wallop and you would get in a ton of trouble knowingly putting that in your marker.  You would go to jail defending with that.

Nevermind, get a shotgun.  The piece of mind alone is worth the difference in price.  And you can hunt with it and even skeet shoot for fun.  The versatility alone is worth the difference in price.

I'm sorry, what was the question again?

Frozen balls can kill you. Depending on where you live, they may not thaw(like here in Minnesota in the winter). It is situational.

I own real guns for killing stuff like food. But in a backup (SHTF), I may give my kid a 60 cal frozen ball and let him go crazy on the living food in our back yard. He knows only to kill food. We also have some air rifles that would make for better use. We could put out a little corn, and take a nice dinner shot from the kitchen without any noise. My sliding glass door makes more noise, and I would have my dogs retrieve it.

[blademan]

Yeah I'm totally unfamiliar paintball markers except for knowing what caliber they are and the velocities involved. I've never used frozen balls or improvised ammo for a paintball markers, but if a frozen ball can put meat on the table, its a bullet saved for a larger animal or an emergency situation. That's a good point. Regardless of the lethality or inurous nature of frozen paintballs, I still can't see using them tactically except as I described above.
   The other thing about using it in a shtf type situation, is getting co2 for it. It might be a problem and I don't think it stores well, but hey every little thing to help. If you can squeeze some usefulness out of it, the go for it.