Author Topic: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place  (Read 3181 times)

Offline mgw44

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Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« on: September 06, 2012, 11:51:43 AM »
So, say we have a scenario like the theater shooting where a gunmen starts firing.  You have your pistol.  My worry is that if you were to defend yourself and pull your firearm that a first responder would show up (like a security guard) see your weapon and fire on you.  Any ideas or comments on how to defend yourself and not get shot by first responders?

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Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2012, 12:36:39 PM »
Any ideas or comments on how to defend yourself and not get shot by first responders?

I don't know.  Have a beautiful woman wrapped around you?  I think that always works in the movies. :-\

Depends on the situation, I guess.  If the Bad Guy has been stopped before the cops arrive, the armed citizen probably ought to holster his weapon, get the heck out of the battle zone, call 911, and call a lawyer.

If the cops arrive and see you holding a weapon, your best bet is probably to do exactly what they tell you, call a lawyer as soon as you can, and call a friend or relative to bring you fresh underwear.

I'm just guessing, because I've never been in a situation like this (and hope to never be!).

Offline endurance

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2012, 03:20:44 PM »
The general rule is to identify yourself as a good guy.  Good guys are polite and might say something that sounds like "Po-lease, drop your weapon" or "Po-lease, don't move" if they are in a shoot scenario.  And as Bill said, you do not want to be holding your gun when the police show up.  You want to extricate yourself from the situation as quickly as possible, because even if you are not carrying, nervous cops sometimes shoot the wrong person in a confusing, chaotic scene (see the Empire State Building incident for an example).  First call should be to 911 saying there has been a shooting, the second call should be to your attorney.  When the police arrive and the scene is secured, explain that you will be happy to speak with them as soon as your attorney arrives.  Then shut up.

The only time you might want to volunteer any additional information is if the scene is still active, there's still a shooter on the loose, and other lives are at risk.  But otherwise, shut the hell up and listen to your attorney.  You've just been through the most stressful incident you'll likely encounter in your entire life; you are not in the position to give testimony that may land you in jail.
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Offline Ronin4hire

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2012, 04:20:47 PM »
Echoing what Endurance said-  Be respectful to the responders.  Give them your ID and limit ALL conversation-
Everything you say will be noted and presented to the Prosecutor, best to say NOTHING beyond:
"My life was threatened.   I was forced to defend myself.  I want to speak to my attorney." 
This presents you as the victim and the other party as the hostile actor/aggressor.

Also helps that you have a stock pistol and FACTORY duty ammo, not some customized super gun and home loads...

Offline jim124816

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2012, 09:13:16 PM »
Reality?  I am in a movie theater and I have a handgun (doesn't matter what kind).  Some nut walks in with a rifle and starts firing randomly, I will not worry about consequences ( hopefully) of my returning fire.  All the legal stuff takes a sideline to the immediate survival needs of me and all of those around me.  I will allow my peers to try me for doing the right thing. 

 This is a rare thing that happened in Aurora.  Most other scenarios where one is most likely to run into a dirtbag with  bad ideas and witnesses of varying remembrances is where I would really start thinking about legal consequences.  I would follow the preceding advice in most situations.


Offline mgw44

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2012, 07:49:32 AM »
I didn't even consider the legal ramifications.  I am worried about getting shot by first responders.  As first responders enter a firefight I would think there is a low probability that they would look for or expect a good Samaritan with a firearm engaging the threat.  Does that make sense? 

It would seem like you would need to assess every room, every event to see where likely first responders would come from.  Also, you would need to take a look around for first responders, other bad guys, etc. before engaging the immediate threat.  It would seem to me that once your gun is exposed you have to expect that you have no allies.

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Offline Cooter Brown

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2012, 08:49:58 AM »
One of the many reasons I'm a big, big fan of the Downrange Radio Podcast is that every time there's an incident of this nature, Bane does a "lessons learned" debrief. His comments on the Aurora shooting are on this episode;

http://www.downrange.tv/blog/down-range-radio-275-protecting-yourself-in-an-unsafe-world/15461/

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Offline gilevi

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2012, 02:28:37 PM »
as a cop i can give u some tips

Reholster your pistol after u use it
make sure u call 911 and identifiy yourself so the arriving officers have knowledge you are there.
Keep yelling and identifying your self as someone there to help

Offline mgw44

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2012, 11:47:56 AM »
thanks for the posts.  gilevi, that makes a lot of sense.  I'll check out the podcast Cooter.  I drive 80 miles a day so that will give me something else to listen to.

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Offline CR Williams

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 09:27:40 AM »
If you have time after the shots, get the pistol back in the holster and under concealment. Keep your hands in sight and follow all instructions issued by law enforcement. As soon as possible once LE has initial control in place, inform them that you are armed and then follow their directions. Keep your hands away from the weapon while you inform them of your status.

If you have the weapon in hand as they make entry, GET RID OF IT and get your empty hands into sight. Follow instructions and let them establish control. Sort out your status after that.

(Note: If you cannot bear the thought of getting your carry gun scratched by throwing it down like that, you need to get another gun to carry. I've thrown an RMR'd Glock [total retail about 1100.00] onto a carpet-covered concrete floor just demonstrating this concept. I would certainly not hesitate to throw it down after a shooting with LE coming in 'hot' like they will be. If you can't do that with your gun, you're carrying a liability that could get you shot in some circumstances.)
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Offline SheepdogSurvival

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2012, 05:57:08 PM »
I agree with what others have stated and wanna add a couple of things.

-If practical issue a strong verbal command to the offender to drop his/her weapon prior to use.
-If possible immediately put your weapon back into concealment if the threat has been eliminated.
-Call 911 and tell them:
        1. You were in fear for your life and shot someone
        2. Where you are, and where the shooting took place
        3. What you look like, what you are wearing, and that you are still armed
        4. That you are hanging up to render first aid to others on scene
-Offer first aid and any other help you can to others on scene.
-When you observe the police entering the scene immediately put your hands up and inform them that you are armed and were scared for your life and shot someone trying to kill you/others.
-Follow the police's instructions EXACTLY.
-Reiterate to the police that you were in fear of losing your life and do not wish to make a statement at that time.
-Ask to speak to your attorney prior to making any statement.
-Expect the police to arrest you and take your weapon.
-Do not talk to anyone, even other family members about the events in question until after you have time to process everything and consult your attorney.

A couple of other tips/ideas:

One thing you can do is not look like a criminal. If your a military age male dress appropriately in clean, neat, and properly fitting clothing avoiding things that are loud or portray a strong belief or opinion, have a good clean haircut, keep your face/beard/etc neatly trimmed.

Get good training and learn to shoot and handle your weapon like a professional, use the same types of weapons that LEOs use nothing crazy looking so if you are observed by LE while defending yourself you look like a good guy. (This is especially true for long guns, if you keep an active shooter kit in your vehicle or whatever no AKs or tripped out foreign weapons, remember you wanna look like you belong on the good guy's side.)

Volunteer in your community and try to get to know the cops that patrol your area if possible, this would include things like volunteer Fire, EMTs, and Coast Guard Auxiliary etc.

NEVER turn toward the police with anything in your hand, just drop that shit and get on the ground.
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Offline ID_Joker

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2012, 06:29:38 PM »
I agree with Sheepdog.  I would add/modify a one small points.  If at all possible, I'd keep the cell phone line open.  The operator should not drop you if you don't hang up.  That way you at least have a chance of having the line recording if things flare up again, if there is a question about what happened when officers arrive, etc.

Offline Saber19

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2013, 11:35:37 PM »
If you're the one who put the assailant down and you can help any injured, holster and do so. As soon as you hear the first responders coming in, drop to the floor spread eagle and wait until they come to you.
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Offline mgw44

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2013, 08:07:28 PM »
I like this thread.  thanks for the input

Offline CR Williams

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2013, 10:38:36 AM »
-If practical issue a strong verbal command to the offender to drop his/her weapon prior to use.

Don't recommend you do this with an active shooter. At least one good guy was shot and paralyzed doing that. Active shooter is more likely to shoot you. Active shooter most often does not expect to survive the shooting. They won't care enough about living to throw the weapon down. If you have a good shot, take it. That's the surest way to stop them and prevent further loss of life, including yours.
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Offline livinitup0

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2013, 01:05:52 PM »
My suggestion would be to call the police departments that would be the 1st responders and ask them that same question. We can thoerize or even use real examples all day, but if those suggestions come from people other than the actual 1st responders that would actually BE there then its really all subjective. Id go straight to the source and follow their directions to a T.

Offline endurance

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2013, 02:39:01 PM »
My suggestion would be to call the police departments that would be the 1st responders and ask them that same question. We can thoerize or even use real examples all day, but if those suggestions come from people other than the actual 1st responders that would actually BE there then its really all subjective. Id go straight to the source and follow their directions to a T.
And depending on which officer you get ahold of, you're likely to get a dozen different answers, including "call 911 and wait for us to arrive."  In my opinion, if you want good legal advice, talk the the attorney who you will be calling after the incident.  He's the one who's going to have to defend your actions. 

Besides, in any given day, I'm in 5-6 different jurisdictions with different response plans.
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Offline CR Williams

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2013, 09:26:31 AM »
Agree with endurance. Your most likely answer is some variant of "run away and leave the others do die" or "find a hiding place and watch everybody else get shot until we get there". It will also depend on how high up in the administration the officer you speak to is. The closer they are to Chief, the more likely you will get a PC response that doesn't acknowledge the ability of civilian shooters to alter the outcome in favor of the innocent and the good.

Also depends on where you are in the US. Some places, the line officers will tell you to shoot the SOB if you can. Other places, they will be conditioned to the socialist only-we-can-do-that-because-we're-official line.
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Offline livinitup0

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2013, 09:54:19 AM »
You guys have a point. I didnt think of that. Id be hesitant to ask a lawyer either though, considering pretty much any law is subject to interpretation to most attorneys.

Offline xsquidgator

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2013, 06:03:33 PM »
I'm not a cop, but +1 to what gilevi said.
This topic is covered in fairly deep detail (up to 4 hours worth out of a 40 hour class) in Massad Ayoob's MAG-40 class.  Certainly, the way any trainer tells you to deal with this situation is going to be a matter of opinion, and there probably isn't a single best answer.  But, things like reholstering asap if it is safe to do so, IDing yourself as a good guy, making sure everyone else is ok and getting other people around involved to help make your area secure and call for help, and also to get the message out to dispatch and to the responders your description and that you're an armed citizen who stopped the bad guy and/or is holding him at gunpoint.
Even if you do all that there are still risks but that may be about the best that you can do. 

Offline liftsboxes

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2013, 04:10:18 PM »
... and coordinate with those most likely to be around you.  My wife and kids are part of my plan.  If we were all at a movie/sporting/event/whatever the default is for her to get the kids to safety while calling 911 and identifying me as a good guy returning fire.  My job is to watch her six and return fire if appropriate and safe.  If absolutely necessary, we can reverse roles (but I'm a better shot and likely carry more ammo while she a much prettier talker).  Of course, we also have let the kids know that under some circumstances they might be dialing and id'ing. 

Offline joeandmich

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2013, 10:10:01 AM »
The Outdoor Channel has a tv show called "Best Defense" which covered this situation in detail. They came up with 3 scenario's. If you have the Outdoor Channel I would recommend watching this show. I am a Krav Maga instructor and many of the tips they offer are very sound.

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Offline Mexican_Hippie

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2013, 11:14:17 AM »
My suggestion would be to take a MAG40 class. 

Offline PlunjProtection

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2013, 07:29:13 PM »
Finish the job within five minutes before they arrive and return your gun to the concealed holster. . . . . sorry, I couldn't help it.  And when you pulled the gun on the shooter, you are the first responder.

I haven't attended a mag40 but I have read Myoob's books, The Best Defense has good tips, and there are other places to find good info.  Sticking with the don't get shot scope, doesn't it all boil down to getting the info to the good guy with the gun that you are not a threat to them with a gun.  That info needs to get to whoever is showing up by all means reasonably possible.  One thing to consider, I don't know if I would be taking the firearm from my hand when no other responders are there or showing up right away because you don't know if there is another threat.


Offline PAGUY

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2013, 07:50:04 PM »
Number one is to neutralize any and all threats.  Remember that we use the amount of force needed  to neutralize a threat to yourself or a third party.  Now that the threat is neutralized you do not have a need to have your firearm in your hand.  Holster it.  Call 911 and get help on the way.  When LE arrives you do not want to be the one jumping up and down with your pistol in your hand yelling "I got that mother F___er that killed my friend" or" Did you see the way that his head came apart as my sixth and seventh round hit it?" Co-operate with LE when they arrive. Give basic info and use your lawyer.   
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Offline Mortblanc

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2013, 02:42:30 PM »
Get a badge and holder from any of the thousands of sources on the internet.

Get one that is neutral, like CCW permit holder, but looks official.

When all the shooting is done take out the badge and flash it at anyone approaching. 

That is exactly what a plainclothes or an off duty LEO would be doing in that situation.

Responders often react to badges better than announcements.

 

Offline PAGUY

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2013, 08:17:13 PM »
Get a badge and holder from any of the thousands of sources on the internet.

Get one that is neutral, like CCW permit holder, but looks official.

When all the shooting is done take out the badge and flash it at anyone approaching. 

That is exactly what a plainclothes or an off duty LEO would be doing in that situation.

Responders often react to badges better than announcements.Use caution with any statements made.  Impersonating a LEO is a felony.
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Offline thewarriorhunter

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2013, 10:52:45 PM »
i saw the MAG40 class mentioned and massad recently did a podcast with jack on this very subject. while i haven't taken the class (i would love to) i will say this show was full of great info. i think i've listened to it three times and it is on my phone in case i want to listen to it again.

http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/episode-1094-massad-ayoob-on-lethal-force-aftermath


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Offline Mountain State Prepper

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2013, 08:05:00 AM »
In my NRA Basic Pistol class my instructor had some different advice than some above.  Not saying he is right, but this is what he said.   If you have shot in self defense...

  • DO NOT render first aid to the person you just shot, you were in fear for your life, you should not approach that person at all.   If they are not dead, however injured they may be, they still can inflict harm on you, and may very well attempt to take your life again.
  • DO NOT reholster your weapon.   You can not be 100% sure your life is not still in danger until the police arrive.  Too many "what if's"
  • DO call 911, when police arrive do EXACTLY what they say.   Lay your weapon down marking the spot from where you shot and make sure the police take note of that position
  • DO tell the responding officer that YOU want to file the complaint.
  • DO NOT say anything else until you have an attorney.  You almost assuredly will be taken into custody, at least for the short term.   
  • DO have an alternate backup CCW weapon.  Once you are out and things are cleared up, you very well may be without your primary CCW pistol for a very long time
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Offline thewarriorhunter

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Re: Conceal carry and a shooting in a public place
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2013, 09:00:12 AM »
  • DO have an alternate backup CCW weapon.  Once you are out and things are cleared up, you very well may be without your primary CCW pistol for a very long time

this is really critical. if this happened to me i would have to use my wife's pistol while i got a new one. i would like to get a backup now but there is no way i could sell my wife on that... she thinks i only need one of everything... still working on the two is one philosophy.


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