Author Topic: Concealed Carry "Badges"  (Read 5045 times)

Offline Heavy G

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Concealed Carry "Badges"
« on: September 17, 2012, 07:43:54 AM »
I would rather not be mistaken for the bad guy when I'm carrying concealed and get shot.  It would be nice for the police and other concealed carry holders to know instantly that I'm not the bad guy.

I've seen "badges" that say "concealed carry permit" or something like that.  They don't say "police officer" so, in my mind, a person with such a badge is not impersonating a police officer. 

Any thoughts on whether this is viewed as a crime by the authorities?  I would especially like to hear from LEOs on this.

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Offline fritz_monroe

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2012, 07:46:39 AM »
I seem to recall reading about those badges recently in some book I'm reading.   ;)
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Offline backwoods_engineer

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2012, 07:50:07 AM »
I'm not an LEO, but I think the "badge" worked really well for Pow in the book, and I think its use was pretty realistic.  I've seen those "badges", and since reading your book, G, I've been thinking about getting one for the purpose Pow used it for: conveying "I'm a good guy" to the sheep, who think that LEOs are "The Only Ones" who should have guns.

Offline Cooter Brown

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2012, 08:50:24 AM »
Your CCW card identifies you as being legal to carry. What would a badge do for you that your card wouldn't?
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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2012, 09:06:02 AM »
In the in between state of a society breaking down where people may respect a badge and there will be no follow up from authorities it might have a place...but bear in mind it will be impersonating a police officer.  Its just that at that point in time it doesnt matter much so long as you are not doing anything bad with it.

I have done the reserve LE thing for a few years and i consider it a poor idea in normal times. 

The phenomena you are looking for is a hesitation by LE, so they dont shoot you in a high stress incident.  That is effect you are looking for.  You are getting the effect by making the officer think you are a cop.  I know you are never claiming to be one, but there is a reason the badge tends to work.  This does not tend to put you in the best position afterwards.  The officers may start out perceiving you negatively as a police wannabe or vigilante type.  Is that fair, no, but it is a good possibility.

There are many things you can do to cause the hesitation on the part of the officer.  Have good gear, have a holster and well maintained firearm.  Practicing safe weapons handling procedures.  Dress in a professional manner and be well groomed (yeah yeah, you beard guys can do it, just keep it trimmed).  You carry a bloody gun to be ready to deal with the unlikely possibility that you will need to defend your life, you can dress yourself in a manner that presupposes a need to not look like a scum bad to the authorities.  Basically you want to present an image to the officer that does not fit his concept of a threat.  All those little things add up and he processes them, even if not on a conscious level.  I also keep a blaze orange baseball cap in my go bag.  My thought is that if the threat is down and the police are not on scene yet, putting that on would create an incongruous enough image to get him to slow down.

When I reserved I carried my shield on a chain in the go bag also.  I dont know if I could have gotten it out in time to help in the time that it is really needed, an officer show up as I am shooting someone.  At that point if I reach into a pocket, bag or inside my shirt for a shield he very well could shoot me.  If he doesnt shoot you in that moment and it goes to talking I dont see the CCW badge as value added.  The permit itself does the same thing and the badge may be a negative.

Its my $.02 G, take it for what it is worth.  I dont condemn anyone for doing it, but I do not and would not recommend it to someone who asked me.  A lot more people get arrested by the police than shot by them, and anything that makes your life harder on the right side of the arrest is probably not value added.
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Offline SheepdogSurvival

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2012, 05:26:07 PM »
In the in between state of a society breaking down where people may respect a badge and there will be no follow up from authorities it might have a place...but bear in mind it will be impersonating a police officer.  Its just that at that point in time it doesnt matter much so long as you are not doing anything bad with it.

I have done the reserve LE thing for a few years and i consider it a poor idea in normal times. 

The phenomena you are looking for is a hesitation by LE, so they dont shoot you in a high stress incident.  That is effect you are looking for.  You are getting the effect by making the officer think you are a cop.  I know you are never claiming to be one, but there is a reason the badge tends to work.  This does not tend to put you in the best position afterwards.  The officers may start out perceiving you negatively as a police wannabe or vigilante type.  Is that fair, no, but it is a good possibility.

There are many things you can do to cause the hesitation on the part of the officer.  Have good gear, have a holster and well maintained firearm.  Practicing safe weapons handling procedures.  Dress in a professional manner and be well groomed (yeah yeah, you beard guys can do it, just keep it trimmed).  You carry a bloody gun to be ready to deal with the unlikely possibility that you will need to defend your life, you can dress yourself in a manner that presupposes a need to not look like a scum bad to the authorities.  Basically you want to present an image to the officer that does not fit his concept of a threat.  All those little things add up and he processes them, even if not on a conscious level.  I also keep a blaze orange baseball cap in my go bag.  My thought is that if the threat is down and the police are not on scene yet, putting that on would create an incongruous enough image to get him to slow down.

When I reserved I carried my shield on a chain in the go bag also.  I dont know if I could have gotten it out in time to help in the time that it is really needed, an officer show up as I am shooting someone.  At that point if I reach into a pocket, bag or inside my shirt for a shield he very well could shoot me.  If he doesnt shoot you in that moment and it goes to talking I dont see the CCW badge as value added.  The permit itself does the same thing and the badge may be a negative.

Its my $.02 G, take it for what it is worth.  I dont condemn anyone for doing it, but I do not and would not recommend it to someone who asked me.  A lot more people get arrested by the police than shot by them, and anything that makes your life harder on the right side of the arrest is probably not value added.

Great post!
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Offline ncjeeper

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2012, 09:09:08 PM »
Your CCW card identifies you as being legal to carry. What would a badge do for you that your card wouldn't?
When I arrive to a shooting scene I cant read your ccw card from 50 ft away when your holding it out as I approach. I can make out a badge from that distance. At the same time you should be verbally stating your a ccw permit holder and armed and not a leo. That way there is no confusing you as trying to impersonate.
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Offline Heavy G

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2012, 11:30:12 PM »

... you should be verbally stating your a ccw permit holder and armed and not a leo. That way there is no confusing you as trying to impersonate.


This is what I would do.

Nice post, chemsoldier.     

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Offline Cooter Brown

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2012, 06:26:57 AM »
This topic is a thread (or 10) on every other forum out there and usually degenerates quickly. A Google search will turn up more than you can shake a stick at. The overwhelming consensus is that it is a bad idea.

The unanimous consensus of LEO's that I have spoken to personally is that it is a bad idea. The why is summed up pretty well in this excerpt from post #7 on this thread http://forums.officer.com/t65765/# at officer.com;

Quote
A badge does NOT let me know who the "good guy" is. People can and do get all kinds of fake badges, stolen real badges, etc. If I'm in a plainclothes, incl off duty, shooting I fully expect to be dropping my gun (and I do mean DROP, trying to gently set it down will get you shot) and getting proned out/cuffed when the cavalry arrives. They will sort everything out shortly, but no one is going to automatically treat me as a good guy because they see some tin.

YMMV.
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Offline Heavy G

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2012, 09:58:10 PM »
Thanks, Cooter.

You might be interested in the ten-book prepper novel series called 299 Days.  I, like, wrote it and stuff.  Prepper Press is publishing it.  Seriously.  Check out www.299Days.com.

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Offline Rickard

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2012, 01:23:56 AM »
This is a little late to the thread, but take a look at Force Science News letter #216. Plain Clothes police officers with legitimate badges but brandishing a gun get shot 95% of the time. With the proper display technique they are able to reduce that to 50%.

Don't want to get shot? DROP the gun. Step on it. Arms fully extended, fingers wide open, palms toward the uniformed officers. Do what they tell you. Expect to be cufffed and put in a squad car. Don't try and explain your way out of the situation.

Carrying a gun that you want to set down instead of drop? You are carrying the wrong gun.

We have a police officer that is a SWAT instructor as one of our instructors and this is his recommendation for not getting shot by arriving officers.

As an aside, in New Mexico, carrying a badge that says concealed carry permit holder will get you charged with impersonating a law enforcement officer.  "We don't need no steenkin badges".

Save your money. Get more training. I would suggest the MAG-20 class. No shooting but a mental overload on the use of the deadly force and the law. Also, consider joining the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. They will be there for you if you are involved in an encounter that requires the display or use of deadly force. They also put out a monthly newsletter that is available to anyone, member or not, that is a great resource for anyone that carries a firearm for self defense.

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Offline Oil Lady

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2012, 09:16:14 AM »
This is a little late to the thread, but take a look at Force Science News letter #216. Plain Clothes police officers with legitimate badges but brandishing a gun get shot 95% of the time. With the proper display technique they are able to reduce that to 50%.



What is proper display technique in such a situation?
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Offline ncjeeper

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2012, 12:48:37 PM »
We train to shoot center mass. So If your badge/ID is hanging around your neck its seen faster and identified easier versus having it in your hand or clipped on your belt.
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Offline flippydidit

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2012, 04:49:02 AM »
You'd probably have better luck dressing as a priest.  You can't get in trouble for "impersonating a clergyman", and a cop is going to be very careful to "verify the threat" before blasting a pastor.  Just a thought to get people thinking about the mental process a law enforcement officer goes through in a shooting.  Threats are usually generalized by our own normalcy bias.  Whether we are soccer moms or sheriff deputies, we all have some preconceived notions about "bad guys".  Right or wrong, many are very difficult to remove from your mindset.

Keep in mind what everyone else has posted already.  Many officers are killed off-duty even with "real" badges.  Many officers would not take kindly to finding out your "CCW badge" was not an "official" badge after the shooting.  Use your own logic to determine if there is a better way to address the situation.  My own actions would be to unload my weapon, throw it aside and lay on the ground with my arms out.  I'm trying to show I am not a threat.  We can sort out my carry permit after the adrenaline stops flowing.  Relying on that piece of tin alone may get you a trip to the morgue.
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Offline Jeff NH

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2012, 05:38:30 AM »
Your CCW card identifies you as being legal to carry.

Actually, the constitution identifies me as being legal to carry.  The card just identifies that I am allowed to wear a coat if it gets cold.

Offline Thom

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2012, 07:23:37 AM »
I've never seen one of these badges until my first drill weekend at my new NG unit last weekend.  A sergeant in my squad was showing his to one of the kids at lunch.  I assumed he was a LEO and asked him where he was a cop.  He said it was a "carry badge". I thought it had a kind of shady feel to it.  Not "technically" impersonating, but really close in my opinion.

I'm a big proponent of the "make yourself not look like a threat" method of not getting shot by the cops.  I've never had to do it after a shooting (bar parking lots are a different story), but every cop that I've ever known prefers to show up to the scene of an altercation and have no hostilities occurring when they show up.
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Offline outdoorman63

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2012, 04:30:37 PM »
have to say i think its a bad idea
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Offline jim124816

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2012, 06:21:11 PM »
I also agree that it is not a good idea to carry a badge if not a LEO.  The best way not not get shot by a first responder is to not look like a threat.  I.e. don't have your piece in your hand when cavalry arrives.  This advice stands for plaincloths cops and ccw guys as well. 

Offline Cooter Brown

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2012, 06:24:32 PM »
Because somebody had to do it...

http://youtu.be/TFwprS_L6tg
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Offline jim124816

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2012, 06:30:48 PM »
Because somebody had to do it...

http://youtu.be/TFwprS_L6tg

Lmao,  good reference.  Cogent if I must say...

Offline Rickard

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2012, 08:19:03 AM »


What is proper display technique in such a situation?

The research that has been done shows that holding your badge over you head and moving it in a circle reduced the shooting of plain clothed officers by uniformed officers to about 50%. Not exactly good odds in my book. Keep in mind this is in training, where people are prepped to shoot.

What we teach and what officers that have come to our class for seminars suggest is gun on the ground, arms fully extended, fingers spread and palms toward arriving officers. This is the least threatening posture.

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Offline joeinwv

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2012, 08:40:41 PM »
CCW badges are for whackers. See also "ninja, mall"...

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2012, 11:27:11 PM »
CCW badges are for whackers. See also "ninja, mall"...
Hey, ninjas need no badges.  They wouldn't do any good because you wouldn't see the ninja, just a badge floating in the air.
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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2012, 12:26:40 PM »
My take on this is that the only possible use for a badge like that is if you were to have the badge over your holster so if there was an accidental failure to conceal, and somebody saw it, they would see the badge also and not freak out. That is about the only upside IMO. If police are responding to a shooting, they are looking for hands. If something is in your hands it will have 100% of their attention.

On a slight tangent, I really don't think their is ever really a good reason to have the gun out before or after the point of the active shooting. Every time I've heard of the wrong guy getting shot on account of misinterpreting the the situation it was because they were trying to hold somebody at gun point. I could write pages on why holding somebody at gun point is stupid unless you are in uniform and required to do so, but this is just one more reason.

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2012, 12:35:50 PM »
I just don't see the use of a badge in any circumstance as beneficial.  If the shooting is over, reholster, and keep your hands out in the open.  Tell the LEO's that you are carrying and probably turn over your gun, then get handcuffed and explain when your lawyer arrives.  If you did nothing wrong then you should have nothing to worry about. 

If you are in the middle of something and the cops are already there, then DO NOT pull out a gun.

Having a concealed carry permit is not a license to do something dumb like put yourself in a situation where you can get shot.  I consider myself somewhat of a good samaritan, like I am sure most of you do, and want nothing more than to help someone else in the right situation, but purposely putting yourself in a life threatening situation is against basic common sense.


My reason for carrying is basically as a last resort.  No cops around and if I don't shoot someone then someone I love or I will die.  Otherwise there is no justification for pulling the gun out.
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Offline Thom

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2012, 05:38:17 PM »
I could write pages on why holding somebody at gun point is stupid unless you are in uniform and required to do so, but this is just one more reason.

This is a GREAT statement.  Besides, if you have time to hold them at gunpoint, you should have time to restrain them.  You had just better make damned sure you're in the right before doing so.

Never have ANYTHING in your hands when the cops show up.  You might as well go ahead and get down on your knees and interlock your fingers on the back of your head.  They'll sort things out without your help.  If they DO need your help, I'm sure they will ask...maybe even politely.
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Offline DocRokRx

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2012, 01:05:54 AM »
you always hear the "ccw sash" get ripped on, but I think its a better idea than a badge-
especially if you drop your gun and do YESDONTSHOOTMEIAMSUBMITTING dance
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Offline Rickard

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2012, 08:15:53 AM »
On a slight tangent, I really don't think their is ever really a good reason to have the gun out before or after the point of the active shooting. Every time I've heard of the wrong guy getting shot on account of misinterpreting the the situation it was because they were trying to hold somebody at gun point. I could write pages on why holding somebody at gun point is stupid unless you are in uniform and required to do so, but this is just one more reason.

That says it all right there. Don't hold anyone at gunpoint. Don't have anything in your hands when the police show up. Don't get shot.

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2012, 11:59:28 AM »
This is a GREAT statement.  Besides, if you have time to hold them at gunpoint, you should have time to restrain them.  You had just better make damned sure you're in the right before doing so.

I've had the training to restrain a person at gun point solo. It'll be a cold day in hell before I'd consider doing it. The context of that training and about the only real reason to do that is capturing somebody while they are still a threat to go off to some dark hole and do bad things to them. I don't do that. It isn't a pretty method, and breaks several universal academy rules, and if you do it on US soil, you are being an idiot. Unless you are on duty and have help, guns and restraints don't mix.

What it boils down to is (outside of circumstances where you have the duty to arrest) if you have the time to hold somebody at gun point, you either A) had plenty of time to shoot to incapacitate the threat and egress, or B) are being an idiot for pointing a gun at something that doesn't need shooting.

This is what happens when you hold an intruder at gun point:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/phoenix-family-lawsuit-cops-shot-homeowner-intruder/story?id=8756441#.UKPXE65-jcs

This is the caliber of bone headed mistakes that happen all too often when police show up:
http://www.foxreno.com/news/ap/crime/police-officer-killed-by-friendly-fire-remembered/nS4H2/ (Shot a uniformed officer - I'm assuming a badge was involved ;) )
http://www.10news.com/news/woman-injured-in-shooting-involving-sheriff-s-deputy (Officer f'tard with his finger on the trigger had a "spontaneous reaction" and shot a woman that even by police accounts was no threat - quote from SD Sheriff Gore - the same Gore from Ruby Ridge BTW)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 12:31:32 PM by inbox485 »

Offline Dainty

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Re: Concealed Carry "Badges"
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2012, 12:42:25 PM »
I read on a forum once of a person who made a citizen's arrest by holding the perpetrator at gunpoint. He had heard the screams of a woman being raped in a nearby ally, and after arriving at the graphic scene was apparently not inclined to allow the offender to leave.

No details on how the handover went down, however. Sounds like it'd be very much at your own risk.