Concealed Carry "Badges"

[inbox485]

I read on a forum once of a person who made a citizen's arrest by holding the perpetrator at gunpoint. He had heard the screams of a woman being raped in a nearby ally, and after arriving at the graphic scene was apparently not inclined to allow the offender to leave.

No details on how the handover went down, however. Sounds like it'd be very much at your own risk. 

It happens. Less than ideal ways of handling problems don't always end up as badly as they could. If he had his gun out as a cop who may have also heard the commotion showed up and thought the "good guy" was assaulting a couple, he would likely have been shot (even if he had a badge that the officer may or may not have noticed). I would have made 100% certain not to have a gun out unless shooting was warranted, and preferably not even be physically present as the cops arrived, but circumstances and all that weigh in.

[Jesse2004]

I could write pages on why holding somebody at gun point is stupid unless you are in uniform and required to do so, but this is just one more reason.

Personal defense with a firearm is not my area of expertise.  I understand this may be a stupid idea, but can you provide some more details / alternatives?

The scenario I'm thinking about is if someone defending themselves with a firearm draws and before a shot is fired the bad guy puts his hands up and says "Please don't shoot".  What do you do then?  Police have been called and are on their way.  I can't imagine shooting someone who (even if they just did "horribly bad stuff") doesn't pose an immediate threat.  Also, I would think it would be quite dangerous to holster if the bad guy is still potentially capable of violence.  My thought, unchallenged until reading this thread, was that the correct response would be to keep the gun out and cover the bad guy, until the police arrive at which point, I'd expect both good guy and bad guy to be handcuffed and questioned.

What am I missing?

[Virginian]

Personal defense with a firearm is not my area of expertise.  I understand this may be a stupid idea, but can you provide some more details / alternatives?

The scenario I'm thinking about is if someone defending themselves with a firearm draws and before a shot is fired the bad guy puts his hands up and says "Please don't shoot".  What do you do then?  Police have been called and are on their way.  I can't imagine shooting someone who (even if they just did "horribly bad stuff") doesn't pose an immediate threat.  Also, I would think it would be quite dangerous to holster if the bad guy is still potentially capable of violence.  My thought, unchallenged until reading this thread, was that the correct response would be to keep the gun out and cover the bad guy, until the police arrive at which point, I'd expect both good guy and bad guy to be handcuffed and questioned.

What am I missing?

Every scenario requiring the drawing of your weapon is dictated by the situation,
You should only draw your weapon when confronted with an obvious life threatening encounter or a potential life threatening encounter.
Once you draw you have already made the decision to take another life but if the threat surrenders you need to decide if the individual has the potential to resume being an immediate threat or not, what I mean by this is if you were to holster your weapon will the individual walk away or attack you or someone nearby.
I personally would holster my weapon but be at the ready while Monitoring the situation unless the individual was hostile during the entire encounter then I would order them to place their hands on top of their head and turn around with their back towards me, I would then order them to get down on their knees and remain in place until law enforcement arrived, by taking this action you could  keep an eye on the individual  without them knowing they are no long being held at gun point, this way when law enforcement arrives your weapon is not drawn and you have not become the threat.

This is one technique I personally would use and is in no way legal advise.

[inbox485]

Personal defense with a firearm is not my area of expertise.  I understand this may be a stupid idea, but can you provide some more details / alternatives?

The scenario I'm thinking about is if someone defending themselves with a firearm draws and before a shot is fired the bad guy puts his hands up and says "Please don't shoot".  What do you do then?  Police have been called and are on their way.  I can't imagine shooting someone who (even if they just did "horribly bad stuff") doesn't pose an immediate threat.  Also, I would think it would be quite dangerous to holster if the bad guy is still potentially capable of violence.  My thought, unchallenged until reading this thread, was that the correct response would be to keep the gun out and cover the bad guy, until the police arrive at which point, I'd expect both good guy and bad guy to be handcuffed and questioned.

What am I missing?

If there isn't an immediate threat, your gun shouldn't be out. If there was a threat but there isn't anymore, the gun should go away. Capable and having a history of violence does not constitute an immediate threat once the intent goes away. Sticking around such a person goes under the stupid places with stupid people rules. GTFO. You aren't some beat cop that is required to apprehend this guy then stick around to fill out the paperwork, and chat with the sarge about it. If you were you would have a union, a legal team, and a blatantly biased court system all on your side. You get none of that, so GTFO and don't forget your rights under the 5th.

Answering your situation specifically I might ask what exactly they were defending themselves from. In just about any case, the answer is to leave. You have no duty to stick around, and no benefit to being there when the police show up responding to an altercation involving one or more firearms. You can go elsewhere call 911 if you think you must, and tell police where to meet you individually. Keep in mind though that you have a 5th amendment right for a reason. More often than not, if the bad guy didn't actually injure anybody, there isn't anything worth charging them with that would amount to more than a fine or a slap on the wrist. Even if they had a gun pointed at you and decided to drop it in the moment you drew down on them (I have never heard of this happening outside of Hollywood, but for the sake of argument, say it does), they are looking at maybe a misdemeanor (that's if they don't claim you were the assailant), and you are looking at getting shot when police show up. The word of the day is GTFO.

There are a few things that just shouldn't ever be left hanging out in public any longer than they have to be, and your CCW is one of them.

[Virginian]

If there isn't an immediate threat, your gun shouldn't be out. If there was a threat but there isn't anymore, the gun should go away. Capable and having a history of violence does not constitute an immediate threat once the intent goes away. Sticking around such a person goes under the stupid places with stupid people rules. GTFO. You aren't some beat cop that is required to apprehend this guy then stick around to fill out the paperwork, and chat with the sarge about it. If you were you would have a union, a legal team, and a blatantly biased court system all on your side. You get none of that, so GTFO and don't forget your rights under the 5th.

Answering your situation specifically I might ask what exactly they were defending themselves from. In just about any case, the answer is to leave. You have no duty to stick around, and no benefit to being there when the police show up responding to an altercation involving one or more firearms. You can go elsewhere call 911 if you think you must, and tell police where to meet you individually. Keep in mind though that you have a 5th amendment right for a reason. More often than not, if the bad guy didn't actually injure anybody, there isn't anything worth charging them with that would amount to more than a fine or a slap on the wrist. Even if they had a gun pointed at you and decided to drop it in the moment you drew down on them (I have never heard of this happening outside of Hollywood, but for the sake of argument, say it does), they are looking at maybe a misdemeanor (that's if they don't claim you were the assailant), and you are looking at getting shot when police show up. The word of the day is GTFO.

There are a few things that just shouldn't ever be left hanging out in public any longer than they have to be, and your CCW is one of them.

Check state and local laws  if you were to "GTFO" you could be charged with leaving the seen of the crime unless it was just you and the threat then call 911 and inform them of your encouter before the bad guy does.
As a citizen legally carring concelled you are morally (not legally)  obligated to to defend others from life threatening situations, don't draw a weapon on someone and leave the scene if there are other people around, it could leave the wrong impression about what you have done and you could loose favorable witness assets.
Please keep in mind there is a great responsibility when you carry and it is your decision to involve yourself in a situation, our right to carry can not be impaired by legal carry citezens who "GTFO" after drawing their weapons in public.

[inbox485]

Check state and local laws  if you were to "GTFO" you could be charged with leaving the seen of the crime unless it was just you and the threat then call 911 and inform them of your encouter before the bad guy does.
As a citizen legally carring concelled you are morally (not legally)  obligated to to defend others from life threatening situations, don't draw a weapon on someone and leave the scene if there are other people around, it could leave the wrong impression about what you have done and you could loose favorable witness assets.
Please keep in mind there is a great responsibility when you carry and it is your decision to involve yourself in a situation, our right to carry can not be impaired by legal carry citezens who "GTFO" after drawing their weapons in public.

This might just be my opinion, but I keep seeing situations that account for like 0.1% of likely occurrences. I'm not sure why exactly you would have your life or the lives of those around you threatened and somehow end up holding the bad guy at gun point. I guess if you end up in whatever circumstances that be where you feel you have to do that fine, just understand you stand a fair chance of getting shot for it. More likely, if you are somehow pointing a gun at somebody but not shooting, you are either hesitating when you shouldn't be or keeping you gun out longer than you should be. I'm not talking about leaving the defenseless undefended (that is another topic entirely, but it sounds like we agree morally). There is no state that I know of with a law stating that you can not flee for your own safety. 99% of the time, distance is your friend, and the obsession with standing where your life was just threatened waiting for police to show up and hoping they don't misjudge the situation like some cheesy 80's CCW video is almost always a mistake. Shots fired or not, you don't know if the guy had other friends, or if you just attracted some really unwanted attention. Odds are that spot you had the need to draw a weapon at is about the worst place for you to remain. If shots were fired, you probably do want to call 911 and explain only that you fired shots in defense of your life. But more often than not, you are better off calling from or on the way to the next block over. Most of the CCW training BS comes from cops that frankly have a warped view of self defense. Odds are stacked 100% in their favor and 0% in yours. Their "experience" is also based on times when people do stick around, but somehow don't land themselves in a body bag.

[Heavy G]

What about the use of a "badge" after SHTF to be able to be left alone because people think you're a cop?

I'm curious what you guys think.

(There are a couple scenes in Book Two of 299 Days that depict what I'm talking about.)

[trekker111]

Laws vary by state, and just as I always do when I reply to a thread as an LEO, a reply as a South Carolina LEO.

The act of impersonating a police officer is not dependent on wearing a badge that says "police", or stating "police" during an incident. If a person intentionally acts in a manner that would lead a reasonable and prudent person to believe the the person is a law enforcement officer, then that person could be charged as such, based on the totality of the circumstances.

When something goes down nobody sees what those 1/4" tall letters on a badge say.

Case in point:

We had a volunteer fire fighter from a local fire department, which issued badges. He was apparently behind a car which he felt was driving recklessly. He turned on his red lights, waited until the driver pulled to the side to let him pass, and pulled in behind him, got out, approached the vehicle, held up his fire dept badge, then began berating the guy for his driving. He was charged with, and convicted of impersonating, even though he never said he was the police, a held up a badge that said the name of his Fire Dept, and "firefighter".

Anyone can buy one of those badges, if they were only available to people that actually have a ccw then it might be different, but the various CCW badges, and security badges, get taken off drug dealers and repeat felons on a semi-regular basis. It's not a epidemic problem, but it happens with enough regularity that most cops should be aware of it.

Cops are used to, and train for, coming across ccw holders, armed home-owners, off duty and/or plain clothes officers from their jurisdiction, an overlapping jurisdiction, and even jurisdictions a 1000 miles away on vacation (that one's kinda rare), and people pretending to be all of the above.

Next point is that badges saturate our society. Beyond LEO's, you have firefighters, EMS personnel, security guards, loss-prevention personnel, repo guys, bail bondsmen, code enforcement, tax inspectors, building inspectors, bailiffs, process servers, IT security geeks, alarm system techs, private investigators, the list goes on and on, who carry badges in some locations. This means that badges don't carry the weight they used to.

All law officers are trained that the ones who show up in marked cars and wearing uniforms are in charge until the situation is under control. Your actions are what the response is going to be based on when law enforcement arrives on-scene, people that appear to be a threat will be dealt with as such, those that immediately yield and follow directions will still be around to explain themselves, regardless of a chunk of metal on their belt or in their wallet.

[Cooter Brown]

What about the use of a "badge" after SHTF to be able to be left alone because people think you're a cop?
I'm curious what you guys think.
(There are a couple scenes in Book Two of 299 Days that depict what I'm talking about.)

Sorry G, but I have to admit that those scenes were "cringe" moments for me where I felt a bit embarrassed for the character in question.

I can think of any number of scenarios post-SHTF in which having others think you're a cop would get you anything but left alone. The sheep would want you to save them, the bad guys would want to get rid of you, real LEO would be pissed, etc...

Just be who you are and do what you do.

[Absit]

Sorry G, but I have to admit that those scenes were "cringe" moments for me where I felt a bit embarrassed for the character in question.

I can think of any number of scenarios post-SHTF in which having others think you're a cop would get you anything but left alone. The sheep would want you to save them, the bad guys would want to get rid of you, real LEO would be pissed, etc...

Just be who you are and do what you do.

I have to agree with this.  Badge or not if a cop doesn't know your face (and you're not in uniform) and you're holding a gun you're perceived as a threat.  Best practice would be to have the gun put away and appear passive when the police show up.  Passing yourself off as a cop when no one's paying attention is about the only valid use for such a badge that I can think of.  By doing that though you're opening yourself up to exactly what Cooter Brown mentioned.

Pre-SHTF, a carry badge can only get you in trouble (legal) in my opinion.
Post-SHTF, a "fake" badge can get you in even worse trouble (worse than legal), or possibly get you through something (as it did in the book) if it involves good people still suffering from normalcy bias - but I think the risk outweighs the reward.

[TexDaddy]

What about the use of a "badge" after SHTF to be able to be left alone because people think you're a cop?

I'm curious what you guys think.

(There are a couple scenes in Book Two of 299 Days that depict what I'm talking about.)

...The act of impersonating a police officer is not dependent on wearing a badge that says "police", or stating "police" during an incident. If a person intentionally acts in a manner that would lead a reasonable and prudent person to believe the the person is a law enforcement officer, then that person could be charged as such, based on the totality of the circumstances.

When something goes down nobody sees what those 1/4" tall letters on a badge say....

^This.

[SeePhour]

I remember those scenes from the books and I think the whole thing boils down to what "you" are trying to accomplish. Camouflage, deception, ease of movement? Who is it being used against? Civilians, military, law enforcement?

Pre-SHTF, the badge idea seems to defeat the whole premise of being concealed. If I don't keep my carry gun out of sight, its brandishing. Or "going armed to the terror of the people" as our statutes put it. So the badge seems like a sign that says "Hey, I have a gun on me" and might arguably be considered not staying concealed. In re: an encounter with law enforcement, I am either vacating the area before they know I'm around or I'm getting rid of my gun as soon as possible in such a manner that they don't think I'm armed.

Post-SHTF, it would be a great tool for "herding sheep" who would be willing to do whatever an authority figure tells them. Flash a badge and tell them to remain calm and stay indoors or something like that. I'm here to confiscate your ammo, cars, fuel, whatever. And at that point law enforcement will have bigger issues to deal with. 

[inbox485]

IMO credentials can have extremely random effects. If death looks eminent, random is your best friend. Owning some various credentials just in case they make sense in the future might not be a bad idea. Having a private security badge might be just perfect in a collapse type environment. You would have some measure of authority by appearance, might fall under the category of attracting trouble if harmed, wouldn't be desirable for ransom, and wouldn't piss off any actual police, so I could make a case for that.

Post-SHTF, it would be a great tool for "herding sheep" who would be willing to do whatever an authority figure tells them. Flash a badge and tell them to remain calm and stay indoors or something like that. I'm here to confiscate your ammo, cars, fuel, whatever. And at that point law enforcement will have bigger issues to deal with.

Ya'll aint from around here are you? Hugel beds are likely to be formed on such thoughts.

[Adam B.]

Having a "CCW Badge" makes about as much sense as a mall security guard having a badge...

[Shaunypoo]

In the long run realize that badges are purely symbolic.  They represent an ideal.  In this circumstance, a badge represents law and order, and you are not yourself part of the law and order, you should not wear a badge.

[TexDaddy]

Having a "CCW Badge" makes about as much sense as a mall security guard having a badge...

Actually, it doesn't make anywhere near that much sense. Non-commissioned ecurity officers like you have depicted are licensed by the state. The way biggest part of their job is to "observe and report." They are also trained in CPR and first aid. They are there to call for whatever help is needed and some states require them to wear a badge. They are not police and they are not impersonating anyone and the uniforms they are wearing make it clear they are not police officers.

[inbox485]

Actually, it doesn't make anywhere near that much sense. Non-commissioned ecurity officers like you have depicted are licensed by the state. The way biggest part of their job is to "observe and report." They are also trained in CPR and first aid. They are there to call for whatever help is needed and some states require them to wear a badge. They are not police and they are not impersonating anyone and the uniforms they are wearing make it clear they are not police officers.

I see security trying to look as close to police as they can possibly get away with all the time.

Also on the impersonating side topic, all the states I'm familiar with require that not only do you represent yourself as an officer, but that you use said representation in an act of fraud, coercion or violence.

[Absit]

IMO credentials can have extremely random effects. If death looks eminent, random is your best friend. Owning some various credentials just in case they make sense in the future might not be a bad idea. Having a private security badge might be just perfect in a collapse type environment. You would have some measure of authority by appearance, might fall under the category of attracting trouble if harmed, wouldn't be desirable for ransom, and wouldn't piss off any actual police, so I could make a case for that.

Selco tells a story with similar effect, it was a friend or relative if I remember right but he had a set of novelty dog tags made and that got him out of a situation (without him saying a word) that could have ended up with him dead.  It was purely by accident, he didn't claim to be authority or military, the guys harassing him just were confused as to who he was so thought it best to let him go.  I wish I could remember the source on that to cite for you.

Ya'll aint from around here are you? Hugel beds are likely to be formed on such thoughts.

I laughed out loud.

[inbox485]

Selco tells a story with similar effect, it was a friend or relative if I remember right but he had a set of novelty dog tags made and that got him out of a situation (without him saying a word) that could have ended up with him dead.  It was purely by accident, he didn't claim to be authority or military, the guys harassing him just were confused as to who he was so thought it best to let him go.  I wish I could remember the source on that to cite for you.
I laughed out loud.

That was on a TSP episode. I've played the "I'm a foreigner that will attract enough attention that your own gang will chop you into dime sized chunks to thank you for the headache if you make me disappear" card. So if you want to know if it can work, the answer is yes. But it is kind of like flipping a quarter where heads you live, tails you die. It is horrible idea unless the alternative is don't flip the quarter and just die. Problem is that just having the credential on you can effectively flip that quarter even if you didn't need to.

[Absit]

That was on a TSP episode.

Thank you, I couldn't remember if it was from a TSP episode or from Selco's private site/audio.

[TexDaddy]

I see security trying to look as close to police as they can possibly get away with all the time...

Actually, the security uniforms are selected by the clients. We have officers that wear full suits with ties, those that wear more business causual, those that wear the 'hard' white uniforms and those that wear 'hard' black. We have unarmed officers and armed officers. It is all about providing what the client wants.

[inbox485]

Actually, the security uniforms are selected by the clients. We have officers that wear full suits with ties, those that wear more business causual, those that wear the 'hard' white uniforms and those that wear 'hard' black. We have unarmed officers and armed officers. It is all about providing what the client wants.

Well, yeah, I would figure that the client would choose the outfit one way or the other. My point was more that there are plenty of security outfits that are trying to toe the line on looking like police. And they have badges that deliberately mimic police badges.

[Meibanfa]

What about the use of a "badge" after SHTF to be able to be left alone because people think you're a cop?

I'm curious what you guys think.

(There are a couple scenes in Book Two of 299 Days that depict what I'm talking about.)

If you really want a badge why don't you check with you local law enforcement agencies and see what kind of reserve program they have set up. Our local Sheriff  requires a meeting one night a month and would like for to participate for another 8 hours a month. A two hour patrol late in the evening one night a week will do the trick. The requirements are about the same as a concealed carry permit, a background check, basic physical ability and some training.

When I see one of these badges I can't help but think the person is a fraud. Maybe I associate with too many officers and I am biased, but trying to look like something that you are not will not portray you in a favorable way to most people.

rjd

[cptd]

Having a concealed carry permit doesn't doesn't make you a law enforcement officer, "good guy", or anything with any kind of authority to deal out justice on your own. If you pull that sucker and you're involved in an incident, at the very least, you're going to be disarmed, cuffed, put in a car, and taken downtown to explain yourself, and if you discharge the weapon - whether or not you hit someone - you are going to need to be able to justify it, because in most municipalities it is in itself a crime to discharge a weapon in city limits, weather or not you have a concealed carry permit. And the police are not going to take any chances with their own lives - if you are not smart enough to drop that weapon when the cops show up, you deserve the double tap to center mass that you're about to receive.

You have that weapon for one reason and one reason only - to protect yourself in a life and death situation. You're not going to be assisting the cops when they show up. If anything, you're going to be in their way, and a complicating factor in getting control of the situation.

Once you see that they're on the scene, your need to brandish a gun is gone. They're going to move quickly and according to their training to establish control of the situation. You'd best not interfere with that.

I've known many cops over the years and all of them have said pretty much the same thing about this. They all say that whether they shoot you on sight or not is a snap assessment that they make in a fraction of  second and it mostly has to do with what you're doing with the gun (is it pointed at the cop or at some other person or otherwise pose an instant threat). The thing that is most telling to me, though, is that they have all pretty much agreed that they would never - under any ccircumstanes - shoot a guy who dropped his gun and put his hands up in surrender.

So if it's me, I'm dropping that sucker as soon as I see the blue lights. If the "bad guy" gets away, it ain't my problem. The cops can run him down if they want to. My job was not to apprehend some guy, my job was to survive the enounter, and once the cops show up my role in the incident is over as far as gunplay goes. Remember, you're issued that permit to protec yourself, not to be an unpaid cop.

Just food for thought.

[RitaRose1945]

Actually, the security uniforms are selected by the clients. We have officers that wear full suits with ties, those that wear more business causual, those that wear the 'hard' white uniforms and those that wear 'hard' black. We have unarmed officers and armed officers. It is all about providing what the client wants.

Interesting, because I work for a utility company and have to deal with all kinds of corporate security and celebrity bodyguards, etc.  I never look for a badge or a uniform, I look for the earpiece with the coiled cord.  I don't know why, but that always seems to be the tell when I'm figuring out who is really in charge as far as security.  They're also the guys that don't generally engage anyone, they're just watching.

I'm not thinking the "badge" would be a great idea either.  It would make you look like either a whack job or someone trying to commit crimes under cover of authority.

[markl32]

Way to close to impersonating an officer.  Everything you need to carry, say, and do should have been covered in whatever state program you went through to get a CCW. 

Additionally the consensus of the LEO community seams to be anyone with a CCW badge is a holster sniffer and least and impersonating an officer at worst.