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Author Topic: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot  (Read 17184 times)

Offline SheepdogSurvival

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2012, 10:16:47 PM »
@ SheepdogSurvival

Again I agree with you . . . .  I think you do underestimate my preps though.  We have already done most of the things you last posted and are more than familiar with the area we will be going to.  Also, this area is a clean exit from my current home and out through rural country.  It doesn't pass through a town with anymore than 5000 people in total population, with many back doors through and/or around.

We WILL be transporting the last of our preps (what we've kept at our home) via livestock trailers.  These will both aid in transporting large quantities of preps and a few head of livestock to help us through.  These trailers will also offer temporary shelter for our supplies and cover out of the elements for us, along with a few wall tents (all of which will be heated with wood stoves).  I could go on, but you get the picture.

Maybe I do, I'm not sure since I don't know your situation etc etc... But I've tested your view point and maybe others that share it to think logically about it and make sure it's appropriate for their circumstances. I'm used to dealing with people more from the gun-nut/tactical/machoman/hunter type and many are quick to generalize and fantasize about how they would survive an event. So some of my responses are a sorta knee jerk reaction to challenge things I've seen be used to generalize and fantasize about survival as well as my own misjudgments in the past falling into a macho all or nothing survival philosophy. Fortunately jack has really helped me to develop my thinking beyond surviving a zombie apocalypse or patriots.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
- SAMUEL ADAMS

Offline Louisiana Suvivor

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2012, 10:24:23 PM »
Fortunately jack has really helped me to develop my thinking beyond surviving a zombie apocalypse or patriots.

same here. that may be the number one thing that has benefited me from listening to jack and joining the forum. i always thought i'd just bug out but now i know that is the VERY LAST thing i'll do. in a year or two i may be posting pictures of my "bug out boat". me and the mrs. are planning to have the house as self reliant and self sustainable as possible. the only thing that will drive us out would be fire, famine, or flood.

we being so close to building has started the gears in my head to turn about what we'd like to have on our property. it's very exciting!
Contributing to TSP Forum since October 19, 2008.

Offline nelson96

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2012, 11:32:00 PM »
Maybe I do, I'm not sure since I don't know your situation etc etc... But I've tested your view point and maybe others that share it to think logically about it and make sure it's appropriate for their circumstances. I'm used to dealing with people more from the gun-nut/tactical/machoman/hunter type and many are quick to generalize and fantasize about how they would survive an event. So some of my responses are a sorta knee jerk reaction to challenge things I've seen be used to generalize and fantasize about survival as well as my own misjudgments in the past falling into a macho all or nothing survival philosophy. Fortunately jack has really helped me to develop my thinking beyond surviving a zombie apocalypse or patriots.

Me? Nah . . .  I can hold my own, but don't go looking for it and I don't need to fantasize about living in the woods.

Don't take this the wrong way, but in my line of work I deal with people.  Usually people from the cities (mostly Seattle).  Of the people I come in contact with, most consider themselves mens men (and in their own way they are).  Many of which hunt, been in the military, own guns and shoot often.  None of which could make it in the woods away from their camper.  And none believe others can either. . .  I don't hold that against them.  The country, woods, timber, whatever you want to call it, is beyond comprehension to them and they have been taught over many years how tough it is.  Instead of being taught how to appreciate it, use it, and of course respect it.
 
I appreciate your concern and you offer great advice.  You have been right all along . . .  There are other options available, and too most, they are probably better. 

I'm not sure where you're from, but you should take a visit out west (west of the Rockies that is) some time and see what resources we have available to us.  It's a completely different world out here if you choose it to be.  If you do make it out and want some help in the Oregon country, I can help you map it, but remember that I'll keep my favorites to myself.

Oh, and I wouldn't recommend the Oregon Trail for bug-out country.  They pretty much stayed to the open country that traveled well by mule train.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 11:48:13 PM by nelson96 »
“There are few things more pathetic than those who have lost their curiosity and sense of adventure, and who no longer care to learn.”
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One hundred thousand generations of people lived and ate as hunter-gatherers, and only two generations have grown up on highly processed fast foods. . .  It's not too late

Offline Dontforgetyourlipgloss

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2012, 11:53:04 PM »
Great thread, Its give me allot to think about.

With 3 young ones keeping them out of danger and feed is my first priority.
Thinking about it honestly there a few of my neighbours who might cause a little trouble if the SHTF..

Will be looking for house & or land in the next 6 -12months - I wasn't to concern to being just off the highway but this give me a different perspective.

Offline nelson96

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2012, 12:42:05 AM »
Great thread, Its give me allot to think about.

With 3 young ones keeping them out of danger and feed is my first priority.
Thinking about it honestly there a few of my neighbours who might cause a little trouble if the SHTF..

Will be looking for house & or land in the next 6 -12months - I wasn't to concern to being just off the highway but this give me a different perspective.

Ahhh . . . .  That's what I was hoping for.  If the thread gives others even just a short pause to think about the what-if's and put things in to a different perspective, then it has worked.  There are a ton of ideas out there on how to prep for it and/or how to avoid it, including opinions how it could go down.  I hope we see more from others. 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 12:47:30 AM by nelson96 »
“There are few things more pathetic than those who have lost their curiosity and sense of adventure, and who no longer care to learn.”
 ~ Gordon B. Hinckley

One hundred thousand generations of people lived and ate as hunter-gatherers, and only two generations have grown up on highly processed fast foods. . .  It's not too late

Offline SheepdogSurvival

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #65 on: September 25, 2012, 01:07:42 AM »
Me? Nah . . .  I can hold my own, but don't go looking for it and I don't need to fantasize about living in the woods.

Don't take this the wrong way, but in my line of work I deal with people.  Usually people from the cities (mostly Seattle).  Of the people I come in contact with, most consider themselves mens men (and in their own way they are).  Many of which hunt, been in the military, own guns and shoot often.  None of which could make it in the woods away from their camper.  And none believe others can either. . .  I don't hold that against them.  The country, woods, timber, whatever you want to call it, is beyond comprehension to them and they have been taught over many years how tough it is.  Instead of being taught how to appreciate it, use it, and of course respect it.
 
I appreciate your concern and you offer great advice.  You have been right all along . . .  There are other options available, and too most, they are probably better. 

I'm not sure where you're from, but you should take a visit out west (west of the Rockies that is) some time and see what resources we have available to us.  It's a completely different world out here if you choose it to be.  If you do make it out and want some help in the Oregon country, I can help you map it, but remember that I'll keep my favorites to myself.

Oh, and I wouldn't recommend the Oregon Trail for bug-out country.  They pretty much stayed to the open country that traveled well by mule train.  ;)

You seem like you have a pretty solid handle on wilderness survival and I appreciate all the input you've put into this thread. I grew up running around the woods and camping etc and I always thought I could make it pretty well in the wilderness and I still do to a degree (I need allot more practice) but I've also falsely I thought that wilderness survival was the end all be all of preparedness too. I like how you have been able to articulate your plans and it has stood up fairly well to my challenges. I was stationed in Oregon for awhile and you're right the pacific north west is God's country and absolutely beautiful and resource rich. Only reason I won't make my home out that way is it is too far from family... But I definitely left a piece of my heart in those woods. Best of luck to you and make sure you have some solid coms plans in place so you can get news and what not and if you feel inclined be on the lookout, there are a few of us like me out there that could either be a good contributor to your camp or help your neighborhood situation dependent.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
- SAMUEL ADAMS

Offline nelson96

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2012, 01:30:44 AM »
there are a few of us like me out there that could either be a good contributor to your camp or help your neighborhood situation dependent.

That's what I'm counting on Sheepdog.  Thank you for your past, present, and future service.
“There are few things more pathetic than those who have lost their curiosity and sense of adventure, and who no longer care to learn.”
 ~ Gordon B. Hinckley

One hundred thousand generations of people lived and ate as hunter-gatherers, and only two generations have grown up on highly processed fast foods. . .  It's not too late

Offline RPZ

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2012, 08:42:29 AM »
Quote
What I thought would be interesting to find out is:

    * Have you already planned for this, or have you not?
    * How do you think these gangs will carry out their task?
    * How have/will you prepare for it?
    * What resources do you have to protect against this (build a plan and carry it out)?
    * What if you have young children?
    * Etc.

1) Yes

2) Brute force and Ignorance

3) Yes

4) Our collective family gray matter, and plans basically, with contingencies for variations and some more likely problems.

5) Do not have any.

6) ... [ETC]. Perhaps the better place to be is in a smaller community or town of roughly 500 people. This is a model based on something along this subject line elsewhere on the forum (do not have thread reference) previously discussed.

There is some safety in numbers from a variety of standpoints. In the case of gangs, several hundred adults and older children protecting their young, and homes, are at least in theory capable of putting to flight, or destruction, any average street mob, regardless of type.

Larger towns with populations running into the thousands ought to be able to do likewise if a sufficient number of townsfolk can organize their resistance in advance. Otherwise they may fall piecemeal.

The worst place by far is the larger city. Since;

a) Police will be looking after their own families (and rightly so)

b) Large city populations lack the social bonds between significant enough numbers of people to organize against even a modest size gang. Unless such organization is made well in advance it will be of little or no avail. Forget Hollywood.

You need alot of manpower, controlling an area with a buffer zone to do this. No one should be deceived here, even a group of a few dozen households or apartment dwellers will not be able to hold off determined street gangs. When the shooting starts and the Molotovs start flying it's just a matter of a short time.

So my advice to city dwellers is be prepared to leave before any of this starts. If this is not possible then at least make the effort to leave when the time comes; whatever the risks are in the latter case, better than staying put until what will almost certainly be a most bitter end.

Very small rural communities, and even remote isolated single households will likely fare better than large city dwellers in my opinion. Firstly because the exposure risk off the main highways etc are less. Perhaps more importantly in such settings one has immediate control over larger land areas compared to the urban dweller. This affords opportunities to plan and put into place and practice some cunning and helpful strategies and even "fortifications" in a manner of speaking. Rather than delve into this subject here, a lengthy one, anyone with the brains to live in the rural and remote settings ought to be able to figure out things they can do to turn their home, or small community, into a little Swiss porcupine. Maybe not prickly enough to turn a very large determined group, but at least enough to defend against smaller straggling bands roving the countryside.

To expand just alittle on this, such scenarios are the subject of many historical narratives, and books - new and old. Wartime, and "peacetime". Some good, some bad.

My three cents worth offhand.   
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 08:49:55 AM by RPZ »

Offline nelson96

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #68 on: October 20, 2012, 02:03:33 PM »
Once more into the breach, my friends, once more. We'll close the wall with our dead. In peace, nothing so becomes a man as modesty and humility, but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with rage and lend the eye a terrible aspect.
- The Postman

Yea, just trying to bring this thread back to the top, but it is a cool quote.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 02:10:14 PM by nelson96 »
“There are few things more pathetic than those who have lost their curiosity and sense of adventure, and who no longer care to learn.”
 ~ Gordon B. Hinckley

One hundred thousand generations of people lived and ate as hunter-gatherers, and only two generations have grown up on highly processed fast foods. . .  It's not too late

Offline flippydidit

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2012, 12:46:42 AM »
Well I'd like to state that a mathematical/physics principle is missing from the general equation here.  It has been skirted around and only somewhat mentioned.  That principle is the Inverse-Square Law.  While not 100% applicable due to variables, roads and human resilience, the basic principle holds true.  In this planning experiment, the further from a population center you are, the fewer the "bad guys" that will make it out to you, AND the more resources they will require to do it.  Simply removing yourself from large populations of sheeple works immensely in your favor.

For our planning, this is not a "brain exercise" in "fantasy land".  These types of scenarios were built into our planning from the beginning.  Is the possibility so absurd that it will probably never happen?  Probably.  Do we plan for "black swans" at our BIL?  Absolutely.  That's why we have designed our property the way it is.  That's also why we have resupply caches and a network of MAG's (Mutual Assistance Groups).  In the event of a "no warning" strike by highly violent "operators", they will quickly learn which side of the "risk/reward" equation they are on.  They won't get to try again.

Additionally, the likelihood of an attack by these "operators" is much smaller for us (I would venture), because in the reconnaissance phase of their planning, they'd recognize "clues" about their target.  It will most likely convince them to pick other targets (far away from the area).  They understand what an area controlled by equally or superior trained/equipped forces looks like from a distance.  A cost/benefit analysis would not weigh in favor of them committing themselves.

As for roving gangs?  They will likely be stopped long before they knew they were observed.  Their scouts would not come back, and be a helpful intelligence asset.  If the odds were in their favor, it will be used to their immediate and decisive disadvantage.

I understand that my post is quite vague, and for that I apologize.  Suffice to say, that this isn't a new idea for our "group".  We have every intention of providing for the security and sustenance of our local community.  We also plan on being a contributing factor in the success of our law enforcement and military.  Their ability to maintain rule of law directly impacts our community success.  My recommendation is that for anyone who can, to develop infrastructure on their property for the production of food and barter items much more than they could ever use.  Being a "producer" is (in my opinion) exponentially more useful than only providing for your group.
Nate
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"One of these centuries, the brutes, private or public, who believe that they can rule their betters by force, will learn the lesson of what happens when brute force encounters mind and force."
— Ragnar Danneskjöld, from Atlas Shrugged (Ayn Rand)


Offline nelson96

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2012, 01:20:14 AM »
In this planning experiment, the further from a population center you are, the fewer the "bad guys" that will make it out to you, AND the more resources they will require to do it.  Simply removing yourself from large populations of sheeple works immensely in your favor.

This is my point and it sounds like you get it based on the rest of your post.  Unfortunately I'm not in that position and maybe others aren't either.  You've made very good points.

Plus I have kids, do you?  I'm curious, would your planning be any different if you had young children and you didn't have that type of BIL to rely on that you mentioned. . .  If you don't have kids it might be hard for you to imagine the concern of being able to protect them.
“There are few things more pathetic than those who have lost their curiosity and sense of adventure, and who no longer care to learn.”
 ~ Gordon B. Hinckley

One hundred thousand generations of people lived and ate as hunter-gatherers, and only two generations have grown up on highly processed fast foods. . .  It's not too late

Offline flippydidit

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2012, 01:38:32 AM »
Nelson96,

I have three children (the youngest is still a toddler), and the others in our "group" have children as well.  It's for that reason that we are so proactive in taking the fight away from "farm".  I've seen plenty of war in my life, and we're going to do our best to prevent it.  Barring that, it will be over very fast and far away from collateral damage.

Most bikers, gangbangers, and thugs are not at a "competitive" level with their training and combat multipliers.  Even if they are, I would pit our training and knowledge of the area (prepared area), against them with no issue.  Most "bad guys" think a hunting rifle is a sniper rifle, and that it in turn makes them a sniper.  I guarantee I would not take one of those "snipers" with me on a long range reconnaissance patrol behind enemy lines.  There are mall ninjas and real ninjas.
Nate
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CEO and Founder of PermEscapes
PermEscapes
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"One of these centuries, the brutes, private or public, who believe that they can rule their betters by force, will learn the lesson of what happens when brute force encounters mind and force."
— Ragnar Danneskjöld, from Atlas Shrugged (Ayn Rand)


Offline flippydidit

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2012, 01:43:54 AM »
If we didn't have this property, we would do what we did before.  Sacrifice what we needed to sacrifice to get this property.  We started out in a rental house in suburbia.  After envisioning what would happen to our lives by remaining in that BAD situation, we made life changing choices.  If we weren't able to buy our property, we would have purchased raw land and developed it over time.

It all comes down to your deciding factors.  Some people will rationalize all day about why they "can't" do something or move.  "My parents live here, my children live here, my job is here....etc."  At the end of the day, you have to decide what is more important.  No one can make that decision but you.  My wife and I have decided that our family is more important than anyone else, and we plan accordingly.
Nate
Military/civilian gunsmith/machinist
CEO and Founder of PermEscapes
PermEscapes
PermEscapes on Facebook

"One of these centuries, the brutes, private or public, who believe that they can rule their betters by force, will learn the lesson of what happens when brute force encounters mind and force."
— Ragnar Danneskjöld, from Atlas Shrugged (Ayn Rand)


Offline nelson96

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2012, 02:47:16 AM »
If we didn't have this property, we would do what we did before.  Sacrifice what we needed to sacrifice to get this property.  We started out in a rental house in suburbia.  After envisioning what would happen to our lives by remaining in that BAD situation, we made life changing choices.  If we weren't able to buy our property, we would have purchased raw land and developed it over time.

It all comes down to your deciding factors.  Some people will rationalize all day about why they "can't" do something or move.  "My parents live here, my children live here, my job is here....etc."  At the end of the day, you have to decide what is more important.  No one can make that decision but you.  My wife and I have decided that our family is more important than anyone else, and we plan accordingly.

I hear ya . . .  My wife and I are trying to figure out how we can sell this farm and buy another that is better defensable, further away from the city, and not off a highway.  Until then, we have our back-up plan for getting out of dodge (even by foot or horseback if we have to).  I hope it won't come to needing all that, but I hate being out in the open anyway, and the city is slowly creaping out toward us.
“There are few things more pathetic than those who have lost their curiosity and sense of adventure, and who no longer care to learn.”
 ~ Gordon B. Hinckley

One hundred thousand generations of people lived and ate as hunter-gatherers, and only two generations have grown up on highly processed fast foods. . .  It's not too late

Offline Dirk Pitt

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #74 on: October 23, 2012, 03:02:49 PM »
I live in LA too!  Just like alot of you guys responding.  Unfortunately my LA stands for Los Angeles not Louisana.  :(
Answering the questions posed by the OP.

1.Have you already planned for this, or have you not?
Yes, I have planned for this sounds crazy to say that but I did. My son and I did the "zombie invasion" scenario and how we would repel etc.  Lots of interesting concepts and ideas which could be applied to these types of critters.

2.How do you think these gangs will carry out their task?
How?  Not sure, but after living through the Rodney King "Civil Unrest" I learned the line between civilization and anarchy is very, very thin. I think at first it would be just opportunist in nature looking for easy pickings. But living where I do, I have learned you put up resistance and they fade off quickly.

3.How have/will you prepare for it?
How will I continue to prepare for it is the question.  It is just the continual acquisition of material. Whatever that may be.  Food, Ammo etc and other force multipliers that would give me any kind of advantage.

4.What resources do you have to protect against this (build a plan and carry it out)?
Do I have a plan written on a piece of paper? No, I don't.  Do I have a general plan in my head, yes I do. My biggest single resource would have to be my son.  USMC reservist.  Infantry MOS.  I did my time in the Army but things have changed quite a bit since then.  He is a student of war and tactics not just a run and gun guy.   BTW Which he is VERY good at and I don't mean video games.  The biggest obstacle I see is just numbers.  If there are a handful of bad guys I think we candle handle it.  50-100 ?  No way.  Game over. Neighbors?  All sheople.  One guy might be of some help.  I do get the "we are coming to your house" from family.  But from a tactical standpoint they are all worthless. 

5.What if you have young children?
Not an issue, unless other family shows up and then the youngest I have are teenagers.

6.Etc.
My position is bleak, and I know it. Lots of stuff I am not going to put here, but I know my overall tactical situation is not good. I am watching the calendar waiting for a specific date to show up so I can get out.  I have too much tied up here that I can't walk away from.  Once there hopefully I can escape to Free America, and my LA address might mean something else.

Offline sdcharger

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2012, 02:53:05 AM »
How do you think these gangs will carry out their task?
How?  Not sure, but after living through the Rodney King "Civil Unrest" I learned the line between civilization and anarchy is very, very thin. I think at first it would be just opportunist in nature looking for easy pickings. But living where I do, I have learned you put up resistance and they fade off quickly.

I was in the middle of the riots, a few blocks away when Reginald Denny was getting beaten.  I couldn't agree more that the thin blue line is especially thin when the SHTF.  I watched LAPD and LASO retreat from the riot.  People were on their own for a long while.  Now imagine the riots were happening all over California all at once.  How would you regain control then?  National Guard and cops from all over California came to LA to allow them to control the riots.  Without this assistance the riots would have continued for a long time.

During the riots, there were two kinds of crime, the general folks who were "rioting" are the ones who were fairly easily repelled by armed shopkeepers, such as happened in Koreatown.  This is what America saw on TV.  Many of the gangs/organized criminal groups were smarter and they targeted high value merchandise.  Over 30,000 firearms were stolen during the riots...

I suspect people would be much harder to put off during a prolonged event, requiring higher levels of resistance as time went on. 

I was thrilled to leave LA about 6 months after the riots and I have returned as little as possible since then.  I hope your stay is short.

Offline osubuckeye4

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #76 on: November 15, 2012, 11:43:20 AM »

What I thought would be interesting to find out is:
  • Have you already planned for this, or have you not?
  • How do you think these gangs will carry out their task?
  • How have/will you prepare for it?
  • What resources do you have to protect against this (build a plan and carry it out)?
  • What if you have young children?
  • Etc.

I live in the subburbs outside of Chicago. 10-15 miles one way is farmland and small towns... 10 miles the other way is O'Hare airport and 10-15 miles past that is downtown Chicago.

As far as this situation and the questions presented?


Have you already planned for this, or have you not?

Not for something as large in scope as the situation the OP provided.

I mean, I'm prepared (handgun and shotgun with a healthy amount of ammo, and I compete in shooting competitions to keep my skills sharp) if panic ensues and an individual or a couple crazies, throw a brick through a window and try to storm into my place.

I'm not really prepared if a group of 50-100 armed badasses attempt to break into my place, I don't think it would be possible for me to do so.

I'd probably abandon my place and head out to the country if something like this happened. I have parents who live up in Northwest Wisconsin on a lake, I'd probably head up there... as it would most likely be safer due to the reduced population.

How do you think these gangs will carry out their task?

In what manner are we talking about?

As far as raiding individual houses? Most likely just surround all exits, kick a front and back door in and storm in and go room from room looking to kill? I mean I guess that is what I would do if I was put into a situation where I had to team up with a mob like this and loot resources?

As far as an overall plan? Probably just hit up small towns and go for homesteads that look more isolated/cut off. I would think that the bigger the home, the greater the liklihood that it gets hit up... smaller homes would (generally) mean less resources.

How have/will you prepare for it?

I have guns, I have ammo, I have "bug out locations" in my place where my family knows to go and hide if SHTF. Outside of that, there's not really anything I can do about a group of 50 people storming my place all at once gunning for me. I guess my thought would be to take down as many of them as possible before they killed me.

What resources do you have to protect against this (build a plan and carry it out)?

Gun, ammo, training on how to use them. I also don't flaunt my possessions so I wouldn't be in a position where I made my place an attractive one for bandits to raid. Outside of that, I don't really have a bigger plan.

If things got REALLY bad (a situation the OP presented), I'd probably just abandon my place and end up living in a remote cabin/home in the woods or in an RV. Go as remote as possible and stay off main roads.

What if you have young children?

I have a young daughter on the way. I'd do everything I could to keep her out of harms way. Set up a place for her to hide if a situation like this presented itself... but honestly if a gang of 50-100 armed people get the drop on me... I'm most likely gonna be dead in a hurry.

Offline thefuzz1290

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #77 on: November 15, 2012, 03:16:29 PM »
Have you already planned for this, or have you not?

Mentally, yes, which is pretty much the only way you can prepare. I worked the gang unit for my old department for a while, so I have an insight into how most gangs are operated. Luckily, in Atlanta, most gangs aren't as organized as the LA, Chicago, or NYC gangs are. We have a few loosely organized gangs with defined leaders, but we do have a large Mexican Mafia presence and the Outlaw MC Club is big in GA.

How do you think these gangs will carry out their task?

They'll go for the easiest targets first, and if a situation is prolonged (several months), then everyone is fair game. Look at the LA riots and the Asian store owners defending their stores against overwhelming odds with just a handful of rifles. Now I know that's more of a mob mentality, but most gangs aren't much better. If you shoot a few of them coming after you, they'll leave you alone until they're better armed.

How have/will you prepare for it?

Guns, training, ammo, and mindset.

What resources do you have to protect against this (build a plan and carry it out)?

I plan on grabbing my family and going to my brother-in-laws, then eventually to my mother-in-laws (who lives further out). My brother-in-law has a more easily defensible home, with better line of sight and shooting angles, than where I currently live. My mother-in-laws house isn't ideal, but further from the city and she's a nurse. Its also larger and can accommodate more people.

What if you have young children?

I have a toddler and my brother-in-law has 2 toddlers. It will be easier for us to bug-in than bug-out. If we can stay in one place for an extended period of time, we're going to do that. I have enough food on hand for 3 months (working on more), so hopefully things will either get better or enough people will die off where it'll be safer to hunt.

Offline nelson96

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #78 on: November 15, 2012, 06:22:01 PM »
@osubuckeye4 and thefuzz1290

It appears you get my point.  I guess I started contemplating this thought after I read some saying that they would bug-in and only had plans to run for the woods temporarily if mob's showed up (uhhhh, good luck on that). . . .  Depending on where you live (how well it can be defended) and how young your family is, I just feel one should have a plan.

Go Ducks !!
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One hundred thousand generations of people lived and ate as hunter-gatherers, and only two generations have grown up on highly processed fast foods. . .  It's not too late

Offline joeinwv

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2012, 10:18:52 PM »
In the very low chance that this is the way it plays out - why be a victim? These roving gangs will be unorganized and starving refugees. They will need people with leadership and organizational skills. Embrace the horror and become the barbarian / feudal warlord you've always dreamed of being. Start reading up on Machiavelli and Sun Tzu.

Get me a sweet muscle car, hit the road, join up with the Toecutter: "I am the Nightrider. I'm a fuel injected suicide machine. I am the rocker, I am the roller, I am the out-of-controller!"

</sarcasm>

Offline Joe_Nobody

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #80 on: November 15, 2012, 10:23:11 PM »
Some great posts on this thread.

I believe security is job one. Before food, water, medical and energy. You can have all of the food, water and generator gas you want - but if desperate, well armed people take it, then it does you no good.
 
I also believe security is the top priority because of what we saw in Iraq. When the government fell, our forces didn't provide security and that allowed the "gangs" to take control. I know they were different than our street gangs in many ways - but the same in many others.

Also, without security, nothing will happen. If people are too frightened to come out, then there isn't any community, barter or social support. Again, we saw this over and over again in Iraq. A vacuum of authority will be filled, and often it is filled by undesirable people.

I live in suburban Houston, and my home is not defendable. Even if I could manage hiding in plain sight, it isn't workable in the long run. The population density is too great for both security and food gathering. The land simply cannot support this number of people. I've got no choice but a bugout.

Offline nelson96

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2012, 11:01:22 PM »
Some great posts on this thread.

I believe security is job one. Before food, water, medical and energy. You can have all of the food, water and generator gas you want - but if desperate, well armed people take it, then it does you no good.
 
I also believe security is the top priority because of what we saw in Iraq. When the government fell, our forces didn't provide security and that allowed the "gangs" to take control. I know they were different than our street gangs in many ways - but the same in many others.

Also, without security, nothing will happen. If people are too frightened to come out, then there isn't any community, barter or social support. Again, we saw this over and over again in Iraq. A vacuum of authority will be filled, and often it is filled by undesirable people.

I live in suburban Houston, and my home is not defendable. Even if I could manage hiding in plain sight, it isn't workable in the long run. The population density is too great for both security and food gathering. The land simply cannot support this number of people. I've got no choice but a bugout.

So right.
“There are few things more pathetic than those who have lost their curiosity and sense of adventure, and who no longer care to learn.”
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One hundred thousand generations of people lived and ate as hunter-gatherers, and only two generations have grown up on highly processed fast foods. . .  It's not too late

Offline osubuckeye4

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #82 on: November 16, 2012, 10:31:49 AM »
@osubuckeye4 and thefuzz1290

It appears you get my point.  I guess I started contemplating this thought after I read some saying that they would bug-in and only had plans to run for the woods temporarily if mob's showed up (uhhhh, good luck on that). . . .  Depending on where you live (how well it can be defended) and how young your family is, I just feel one should have a plan.

Go Ducks !!

While the liklihood of this happening in our livetimes is pretty unlikely, it's always fun to run "what if's".  :)

Also, even if a situation is impossible to 100% prepare for, sometimes the ideas you get while in thought can be applied on a more micro level to situations that are more likely to occur.

Example: It's very improbable that a large and organized group of certified badasses are going to kick in your door and open fire indiscriminately. That being said, it's much more likely (especailly if one lives in an urban area) that an unorganized group of idiots might start rioting. It's also possible that the rioters start banding together and doing idiotic things like throwing bricks through windows and attempting to loot homes.

Realistically it's still pretty unlikely that this happens to any of us... but it's possible so having a general plan is better than completely panicing.

Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #83 on: November 16, 2012, 12:57:47 PM »
While the liklihood of this happening in our livetimes is pretty unlikely, it's always fun to run "what if's".  :)

Also, even if a situation is impossible to 100% prepare for, sometimes the ideas you get while in thought can be applied on a more micro level to situations that are more likely to occur.

Example: It's very improbable that a large and organized group of certified badasses are going to kick in your door and open fire indiscriminately. That being said, it's much more likely (especailly if one lives in an urban area) that an unorganized group of idiots might start rioting. It's also possible that the rioters start banding together and doing idiotic things like throwing bricks through windows and attempting to loot homes.

Realistically it's still pretty unlikely that this happens to any of us... but it's possible so having a general plan is better than completely panicing.

If you are prepared for the organized horde, and all you get is the idiotic rioters, then even though it is a dire situation, it is still not as bad relatively speaking than what you were preparing for.
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Offline livinitup0

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #84 on: November 16, 2012, 03:37:11 PM »
IMO the only way the average family can defend against the organized horde is to simply not be there.

Offline TexGuy

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2012, 04:39:37 PM »
How come those of us who have the "wilderness" in our plans are so limited by others? How come we can't go to the fuel depot, the bartering station, or the store that is still opened with food for sale? How come we are limited to being "survivalman" having to eat grass hoppers and grubs?

People seem to think a guy in the woods can't have a stove, that we have to rub sticks together everytime we want a fire.  How come we are not allowed to garden if we took seeds with us?

There are more than one way to skin a rabbit. If you can survive in a town grouped up with your neighbors so be it. If you can live in the woods away from anyone else so be it. It just seems everyone limits the person in the woods. I may be able to live off the land but rest assured, THAT IS NOT REQUIRED OF ME just because I might flee to the woods for a while.


Offline nelson96

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #86 on: November 16, 2012, 09:56:47 PM »
How come those of us who have the "wilderness" in our plans are so limited by others? How come we can't go to the fuel depot, the bartering station, or the store that is still opened with food for sale? How come we are limited to being "survivalman" having to eat grass hoppers and grubs?

People seem to think a guy in the woods can't have a stove, that we have to rub sticks together everytime we want a fire.  How come we are not allowed to garden if we took seeds with us?

There are more than one way to skin a rabbit. If you can survive in a town grouped up with your neighbors so be it. If you can live in the woods away from anyone else so be it. It just seems everyone limits the person in the woods. I may be able to live off the land but rest assured, THAT IS NOT REQUIRED OF ME just because I might flee to the woods for a while.

YEA !! . . .  +1 Tex, well said. 
“There are few things more pathetic than those who have lost their curiosity and sense of adventure, and who no longer care to learn.”
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One hundred thousand generations of people lived and ate as hunter-gatherers, and only two generations have grown up on highly processed fast foods. . .  It's not too late

Offline Canadian Prepper

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #87 on: November 16, 2012, 11:15:00 PM »
There's lots of interesting and respectful discussion on this thread that will take more time for me to digest. In the meantime I thought I'd point out a slightly different line of thought that arose while perusing the discussion.

A few months back I read a fairly concise yet thorough article written by a friend of mine about Mexico's gang problem and its spread throughout North America. If I understood it correctly, the network of gangs there has succeeded in terrorizing the rest of the population, mass media and government officials. Police chiefs are routinely killed, sometimes within hours of taking on their jobs, and when a public official praised a fallen officer on national television, the gangs dispatched a hit squad to murder the rest of his family within hours of the broadcast. Media outlets no longer report on gang violence in fear of reprisals from them, drug rehab centers are routinely bombed and the gangs frequently conduct attacks on public celebrations or kill groups of innocent civilians simply to frighten the population. Their victims number in the tens of thousands. These cartels aren't turning Mexico into a completely failed state, mainly because they benefit from the basic infrastructure provided by the government, but they've otherwise turned the country on its head and are spreading their reach northwards up to the Canadian border.

Long before we get to the type of scenario that would have desperate roving bands searching for food and supplies, I could picture something more like the gang problem in Mexico arising here to terrorize the general population, especially if a more realistic scenario of economic downturn with its increased crime and decreased resources for law enforcement allows such groups to flourish. Whether or not there's connections to groups south of the US border, I could see such an explosion of gang activity threaten all of us, and especially leave our wives and young ones particularly vulnerable. Thankfully Americans aren't as disarmed as the Mexican citizenry, but protecting ourselves from such a threat involves far more than a collection of tacticool guns, even if people know how to use them. I suspect that proximity to others for mutual protection and even relatively quick access to LEO reinforcement might be helpful, but am largely at a loss as to how I'd try to deal with such a scenario. Perhaps this discussion is meant for another thread, but it seems as if this is the type of crowd that's thinking about these types of threats. In the event of a wider breakdown of the rule of law as described in the original post, perhaps elements from these types of gangs could emerge to lead any large scale pillaging that might take place.

Offline nelson96

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #88 on: November 16, 2012, 11:39:26 PM »
@ Canadian Prepper

Thank you for that gut check, I think it's perfect for this thread and welcome any thoughts on this or the original OP.  It is this kind of reality that led me to start the discussion.
“There are few things more pathetic than those who have lost their curiosity and sense of adventure, and who no longer care to learn.”
 ~ Gordon B. Hinckley

One hundred thousand generations of people lived and ate as hunter-gatherers, and only two generations have grown up on highly processed fast foods. . .  It's not too late

Offline sdcharger

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #89 on: November 17, 2012, 12:31:12 PM »
Perhaps this discussion is meant for another thread, but it seems as if this is the type of crowd that's thinking about these types of threats. In the event of a wider breakdown of the rule of law as described in the original post, perhaps elements from these types of gangs could emerge to lead any large scale pillaging that might take place.

I think the model fits.  Mexico is a failed state with a failed economy.  Over 35,000 people have died in their civil war in the last 6 years.  Many of the dead are not combatants, but innocent civilians.  The cartels used to work under the radar and avoid civilian deaths and at all costs tourist deaths.  They had an uneasy peace with the MX government when there were just a few cartels.  As smaller groups began fighting for control of the drug trade, the violence began to escalate in the early 2000's, affecting civilians and tourism more and more.

When Calderon became president in 2006, he escalated the war on the cartels.  WROL is now a daily occurance in many places in Mexico.  Several large areas in Mexico are no longer controlled by their government, but rather by different cartels.  The last time I was in Cabo San Lucas there were gangs members dealing drugs on the main boardwalk right in front of the police kiosk, in the middle of the day, in the main tourist thoroughfare.  These gang members were sporting gang tatoos from Southern California gangs btw.  This type of open defiance would never have happened ten years ago.  Americans used to travel Baja with little worry other than being shaken down by some cops, now I would steer clear of MX completely the rules have totally changed.

I think the pattern in MX is similar to what we could see here if we experience a slow decline in the US.  I could make the argument that in the US we have already seen this occur in some zip codes where gangs dictate everything and the police don't go unless they have at least 4 officers, and then leave asap.  The infrastructure is certainly in place with several large US gangs having interstate networks or control over one or more large metropolitan areas.