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Author Topic: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot  (Read 20622 times)

Offline endurance

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #120 on: November 24, 2012, 05:22:43 PM »
@ endurance

Well said.
Just be prepared to make your realtor insane while you narrow down your options.  We had probably 40 showing (not to mention well over 100 drivebys) over 30+ months before we got our place.  We wanted to keep my commute sub-1 hour to a downtown metropolitan area (where I work) and sub-30 minutes for her (nearest hospital with an ICU, but she hates driving), while wanting horse property, off the beaten path, over 1 acre and under $250k.  We heard "and people in hell want ice water" more than you can imagine, but we finally found it.  I'm pretty sure if we called him today he wouldn't answer his phone.

There's a lot of compromises in the game, but you'll never find what you want if you don't ask the questions to start with.
"There are things that you don't question when your home always smells like baking bread."  From The Hunger Games

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Offline Canadian Prepper

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #121 on: November 24, 2012, 07:53:48 PM »
Thank you Nelson96.  We are all a team and work well when information is shared openly.  I don't know millions of things.  Literally.  I can only speak from my experiences in my own subject fields.  It's pretty apparent to me that if we all work together to educate each other, our community grows exponentially more knowledgeable.  To that task I shall endure.

I'm probably going to be too busy with work the next day or so to provide much by the way of further posts, but I really appreciate the tone of discussion on this forum, which seems far friendlier than most others I've seen. I certainly look forward to your upcoming book for ideas that it will provide in greater detail.

It sounds as if we've got a couple of recurring themes in this discussion to figure out what human threats we may face in the aftermath of natural or human induced events that destabilize the status quo, and how to respond. Here's how I see them in rough order:

If things remain relatively stable (economy improves, the recession continues or we even fall into a bit of a depression but basic civility holds), then the priority remains just maintaining the basic preparedness for routine criminality (i.e. break-ins or the occasional violent activity). People who prep might want to be a bit cautious about their preps in case things quickly change for the worst, while keeping ready for typical disasters that may hit their region from time to time. Barring outbursts of divisions in society (i.e. Rodney King riots, perhaps an acquittal in the Zimmerman trial, an idiot kills the President), crime will probably remain pretty low, even in the aftermath of the typical recurring disaster. It might provide peace of mind to have a CCW permit or some firearms for home self-defence, but those preps shouldn't be anything complicated or take too much of our energies away from everyday living or less dramatic preps that build overall resilience. Choice of where to live or create a second residence will probably have more to do with philosophy and quality of life (i.e. rural hobby farming or owning a secondary hunt camp, cottage or camping getaway that could double as a BOL, etc). I think that people should always try to develop relationships with others in their community that not only enhances quality of life, but could potentially help people band together and help each other in numerous ways should problems arise.

If things turn for the worst, but in a slower, incremental way, we might see increases in criminality that force us to take greater precautions against thefts or more serious violence. That will hopefully just be relatively petty, disorganized crime, but we could see a growth in organized gang activity that may or may not interfere with the lives of everyday people. That brings greater emphasis on choice of locale in order to avoid crime areas in cities, crime areas in the country (smuggling routes or areas that are too easy for criminals and gangs to rob), factoring police and neighbourhood response capabilities against emergencies into ones choices about where to live, greater "camouflaging" of resource preps, and perhaps ratcheting up the community, church and family networks that I mentioned earlier towards more focused responses to the increasing instability. Events related to economic decline, political unrest, or even minor "disasters" might take on a different flavour, as people who might have been more civil in the past take advantage of any excuse to loot and steal. As an example, I'd note the relative orderliness of the 2003 blackout versus the mass rioting and looting that followed a more localized New York City blackout in the 1970s. For those who are really into gardening, small scale livestock production, fishing, hunting and trapping, they might make country living more desirable on account of the greater resilience it offers against economic shocks, but not everyone is going to have that option based upon their resources and how they earn their living.

Things could get much nastier even if everything seems capable of holding together (i.e. we manage to avoid or severely delay the "fiscal cliff") should criminal elements explode like they've done in Mexico. While that would more likely follow from a larger economic decline, l don't think that we should underestimate the ability of a few people to turn really bad if the profits and power/ego boost of gangster stardom gets to their heads. In such circumstances, it becomes particularly difficult to protect oneself, since the criminal element will probably be very intermixed within the broader community and capable of attacking to inflict harm on it's own terms. If it seeks to actively silence all opposition like in Mexico, even our collective preparations to strengthen our communities could put us at risk of reprisals. If the society falls victim to greater threats to its cohesiveness (i.e. the region or country falls into a serious recession or fiscal crisis involving defaults on loans, inflation, etc), then we may sadly need to become VERY vigilant and guarded about protecting our supplies and resources that have been built up and cultivated over the years. People might want to seriously consider the possibility of having to take in relatives and friends or being able to move to other locations (perhaps with other friends and relatives) in the event that people have to flee from criminality, economic misery or the possibility of something worst happening.

I suppose there's always, however unlikely, the possibility of a more thorough breakdown of society through a very serious economic meltdown, largely unanticipated disaster of biblical proportions, or something akin to a civil war, whether openly so or just an angry faction engaging in operations akin to large scale domestic terrorism (i.e. imagine being a Frenchmen living in Algeria during the 1950s or living through the IRA attacks in 1970s Belfast). In those scenarios the state/military remained very strong for the most part, but we could see other scenarios where it's strength and ability to project power is greatly weakened. If the state or military/paramilitary apparatus remains robust, it could either put the civilians stuck in the middle into the same sorts of dilemmas Flippydidit observed in Iraq, or we might see an overly protective militarized state that scrupulously watches and intimidates suspected opponents (i.e.. preppers, religious people, "right-wing extremists" or other groups that have been profiled as dangerous).  If on the other hand the state is greatly weakened, or gives up trying to forcibly control things, we could face threats from private factions (criminal gangs, mafias, self-proclaimed militias or liberation movements, organized gangs of looters/land pirates, etc.) that may treat us as people to rob and kill, or perhaps extort for the promise of "protection." In these latter scenarios we may very well need to employ the defensive tactics that posters like Flippydidit alluded to earlier, though just like all of our other preparations to make us and our communities resilient, it's not something to put off thinking about to the last minute! I think that being in the country, mobile and proactive will be advantageous, though the particulars will be very situation dependent.

To wrap these thoughts into a bigger picture (I've gone on longer than I should have), I think that we need to seriously factor in how to make sure that our preoccupation with such matters effects or overall outlook on life. If our preparations make us stronger, more grounded and mature people whatever happens, I think that they contribute to human flourishing in the best sense of the term. If however, we get caught up in fear or disproportionate worry about the most unlikely or extreme scenarios, a lot of our lives could be frittered away hoping for dire predictions to come true so that we might survive in our little ark. Of course there's always subsets of society whose job it is to worry about such potentialities (i.e. military, LEO, EMS, lay and religious and humanitarian organizations, insurance companies and investment forecasters, etc), but we really ought to reflect on whether or how we fit into that picture.

If things ever degenerate into something approaching the scenario that was depicted in the first post, I wouldn't only be afraid of ruthless gangs operating in a state of nature, but perhaps worry just as much about the means whereby they may effectively be dealt with. Post Soviet Afghanistan probably offered something like the closest approximation to that scenario in our time, in which case the Taliban emerged to offer the prospect of peace and order under the banner of their very peculiar version of Islam. I'd be just as concerned about keeping a civilization going that subscribes to the values of our forefathers as I would about simply avoiding the worst in a bad scenario.

I thank everyone for helping to stimulate what looks to be a fruitful dialogue!




Offline cptd

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #122 on: November 24, 2012, 08:48:34 PM »
In the scenario you describe here, anyone who stays in this country is not thinking about survival, they're thinking about fighting a war which is not the same thing as survival. So you first need to just define your goals.

The reality is that if you've got organized, discipline gangs raiding the countryside for a prolonged period of time, you're only going to be able to protect yourself for so long. Sooner or later your number WILL come up and you WILL die defending your land and food and 1,000,000 rounds of ball ammunition. It's that simple. Fixed point defenses fail sooner or later even when they are adequately staffed and resupplied.

You resent a scenario in which the enemy is more mobile than you,and can thus maneuver freely around your defenses; in which that enemy is motivated and unafraid; and in which you've really got no support to speak of.

Think about it. If you're getting hit by this kind of attack over and over again, it's only a matter of time before they find the weak points in your defense. Or before you take a hit. All they need to do is hit you in the hand or the foot and wait for you to bleed out (unless you know someone who has an air medevac crew and a field hospital on standby.)

I think the scenario that you paint is unlikely for a lot of reasons - but it doesn't hurt to think about what to do if it comes to pass, and there are basically two ways to go. You either make a principled stand for your land and your stuff and all that, and expect to die in place (because sooner or later that's what will happen) or you flee and live out  your days in a more stable environment.

As for me and my family, if things get that dicey we won't be here to fight the battle. I've made my plans and will watch it all unfold from a sunny beach elsewhere in the world.

Think about what happened in Benghazi. All a really pissed off enemy has to do is start a fire and you're going to be forced out into the open by the smoke. Fixed point defense against a motivated enemy with superior numbers is a losing prospect for anything but the briefest periods of time. If things get so bad that, like you say, there are basically armed militias running amok in the countryside, and you really want to survive, get the hell out of dodge.

Even if you fall in with some kind of community - really - think about this for a minute. These gangs are from the city, right? And your community is based in the country? Even if you band together and fight, the reality is that there are a lot more city folk thank country folk. They can afford to take losses. You can't. Every man you lose is gone. All they have to do is go back to the city and find some more starving desperate folk to press into service. It's called attrition warfare and sooner or later you're going to get carved up like the Thanksgiving Turkey, even if you take ten of them out for every one you lose.

As a former infantry officer I can tell you point blank that in the situation described in the original post, the position is indefensible against the enemy described, unless you're Captain Indestructo-man or something.

Offline nelson96

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #123 on: November 24, 2012, 08:54:33 PM »
I really appreciate the tone of discussion on this forum, which seems far friendlier than most others I've seen.

To wrap these thoughts into a bigger picture (I've gone on longer than I should have), I think that we need to seriously factor in how to make sure that our preoccupation with such matters effects or overall outlook on life. If our preparations make us stronger, more grounded and mature people whatever happens, I think that they contribute to human flourishing in the best sense of the term. If however, we get caught up in fear or disproportionate worry about the most unlikely or extreme scenarios, a lot of our lives could be frittered away hoping for dire predictions to come true so that we might survive in our little ark. Of course there's always subsets of society whose job it is to worry about such potentialities (i.e. military, LEO, EMS, lay and religious and humanitarian organizations, insurance companies and investment forecasters, etc), but we really ought to reflect on whether or how we fit into that picture.

Thank you for your post Canadian Prepper.  I too appreciate how the dialogue is going and hope it continues.  There is a lot to learn from all thought processes.  I want to thank you also for bringing up the topic in your "wrap up".  Given the type of discussion this is, your point is just as important as the rest of the subject matter.
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Offline cptd

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #124 on: November 24, 2012, 10:38:12 PM »
Seriously, folks. I'm just sayin'.

Unless you've got a platoon sized element to defend with, your position is untenable, no matter your preparations. You're talking about a family - probably a fire-team sized element - squaring off with a company sized element.

We did this in Iraq and Afghanistan all the time.

So let me tell you how this would play out, assuming, as stated, that these guys have raiding and combat experience.

A third or so will lay down suppressive fire from behind the best covered and concealed positions they can take. With thirty or so guys laying down small arms fire on every window and door you will not be able to poke your head up without getting it shot off of your shoulders.

Meanwhile, another thirty guys can maneuver up to the doors of your place, break them down, and rush in, possibly through more than one door at a time. This leaves still thirty more guys in reserve; the enemy hasn't even committed all of his combat power and still has more than enough to take even a well-defended objective.

Let's say you drop two or three or ten. Fine. The other twenty are going to shoot you to pieces. CQB (Close Quarters Battle). With that kind of numerical advantage, I could plan and execute this kind of raid in my sleep. You would be lucky if you got off a shot.

If you think this is a real possibility and you want to survive, the only option is to figure out a way to abandon your position and move faster than the approaching gangs. This will generate other problems as you will probably not be able to carry all of your provisions with you. But staying and fighting against impossible odds is not a way to survive; it might make you hero/martyr, and that's all cool, but if you want to be actually alive you need to get the heck out.

Unless maybe you've got a buddy who keeps a Spectre Gunship in his barn. Then I'd say you have a chance. . . maybe.

That all failing, one guy throwing a malatov coktail through the window and setting the place on fire ends the fight.  They could surround the place and set it on fire and that's it for you.

And suppose they've gotten ahold of a mortar or something? What about pipe bombs or similar home made grenades thrown through windows?

Think it through.


Offline flippydidit

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #125 on: November 25, 2012, 01:10:16 AM »
Cptd,

Were you responding to a particular post, or is this in response to the broad picture of responses you've read?
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Offline cptd

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #126 on: November 25, 2012, 01:27:51 AM »
Cptd,

Were you responding to a particular post, or is this in response to the broad picture of responses you've read?

I'm responding to the original scenario, which started this thread. The author described a hypothetical situation in which he was being approached by a gang of 50-100 well armed, combat hardened raiders and wanted to know basically how he could plan to deal with that situation.The raiders are intent on kllling/raping/pillaging. They are experienced, disciplined, and highly mobile, riding on motorcyles or ATV's.

I stand by my tactical assessment, that in this instance, holing up in your home with your family is a bad idea. If it's just you and your family against a force that big you stand absolutely no chance.

Offline flippydidit

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #127 on: November 25, 2012, 02:13:13 AM »
In that scenario I would agree with you.  That would be suicide.

I would also state that if you've put yourself into that position to begin with, you did many things wrong.
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Offline nelson96

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #128 on: November 25, 2012, 09:57:47 AM »
I'm responding to the original scenario, which started this thread. The author described a hypothetical situation in which he was being approached by a gang of 50-100 well armed, combat hardened raiders and wanted to know basically how he could plan to deal with that situation.The raiders are intent on kllling/raping/pillaging. They are experienced, disciplined, and highly mobile, riding on motorcyles or ATV's.

I stand by my tactical assessment, that in this instance, holing up in your home with your family is a bad idea. If it's just you and your family against a force that big you stand absolutely no chance.

For the record, I made up that original scenario as an example of a worse case scenario.  And in case you didn't read further, I am a proponent of getting out of dodge, before they come.  I believe that you don't stand a chance with even a much smaller force given the fact that they don't have to play by any rules.  Since I have a family, I have to play by all the rules. 
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One hundred thousand generations of people lived and ate as hunter-gatherers, and only two generations have grown up on highly processed fast foods. . .  It's not too late

Offline sdcharger

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #129 on: November 25, 2012, 11:14:24 AM »
I have a very good friend that I've known since 2004 who lives in Monterrey, Mexico, which is by no means the worst, but lying at the intersection of two warring cartels over the last few years, it's a reasonable sample of what life is like in a state that is sorely broken...

The situation begs the question, what would you do in the situation?  This isn't a run into the woods situation.  It's not a hunker in your bunker situation with six years of escalating violence and counting.  It's a make the best life you can situation...

Both your friend and his wife have been in life threatening situations that are only going to get worse.  The situation becomes more dire all the time along both sides of the border, especially in MX.  MX is a failed state, dying a slow death perhaps from cancer and not a massive heart attack but dying all the same.  Frankly, if I was him I would be trying to move north of the border - his is exactly the type of family we want to immigrate here.

I have known people like him who came to the US for a safer life and many of them took a step down in pay or prestige while they establish themselves here.  Ultimately it is a choice one will have to weigh the pros and cons for ones family and the choice is not always clear.

Offline RPZ

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #130 on: November 25, 2012, 03:42:40 PM »
I'm responding to the original scenario, which started this thread. The author described a hypothetical situation in which he was being approached by a gang of 50-100 well armed, combat hardened raiders and wanted to know basically how he could plan to deal with that situation.The raiders are intent on kllling/raping/pillaging. They are experienced, disciplined, and highly mobile, riding on motorcyles or ATV's.

I stand by my tactical assessment, that in this instance, holing up in your home with your family is a bad idea. If it's just you and your family against a force that big you stand absolutely no chance.
And they do not even have to be hardened thugs. An armed rabble of even a dozen will soon figure out that all that have to do is enfillade your windows and doors to keep your head(s) down while a few get up close and work from there. If they lose a few getting inside rushing in they won't care. If you prove to be a real tough nut to crack they will simply toss in some Molotovs and and cut you down when you run out.

Really folks, securing a house, block or street requires a buffer zone of 360 degrees, some organization and manpower. Just having armed and even very able people inside and around your home(s) is not going to deter a hungry mob of real gangbangers.

Offline nelson96

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #131 on: November 25, 2012, 03:54:57 PM »
Really folks, securing a house, block or street requires a buffer zone of 360 degrees, some organization and manpower. Just having armed and even very able people inside and around your home(s) is not going to deter a hungry mob of real gangbangers.

Someone here on this thread talked about the fact that you would need the ability to have your own roving scouts (multiple placements 360 degrees around you) ranging out to a mile or more to not only protect your home but to have the ability to even warn others in enough time to realistically prepare to fight.  That's the best assessment I've heard.

If they do get close, they don't have to invade your home to ruin your day, they can burn you out. 
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One hundred thousand generations of people lived and ate as hunter-gatherers, and only two generations have grown up on highly processed fast foods. . .  It's not too late

Offline RPZ

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #132 on: November 25, 2012, 03:59:21 PM »
Someone here on this thread talked about the fact that you would need the ability to have your own roving scouts (multiple placements 360 degrees around you) ranging out to a mile or more to not only protect your home but to have the ability to even warn others in enough time to realistically prepare to fight.  That's the best assessment I've heard.

If they do get close, they don't have to invade your home to ruin your day, they can burn you out.
Yes, roving scouts would be a real asset too if you have the resources.

Offline Canadian Prepper

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #133 on: November 25, 2012, 06:06:24 PM »
This is the thread that just keeps on giving.

The arguments against remaining to wedded to a specific local or homestead certainly carry lots of merit, despite the fact that we've rarely ever seen the types of violence anticipated by the original thread in North America. The LA Riots, civil war in the Balkans and Mexico's drug wars are the best examples I've heard thusfar that might give us insight as to what can happen here, with more dire examples in the developing world. It's assumed that we're trying to develop rational preparations and potential responses for people with at least an immediate, if not extended family and friends to take care of, so that adds additional logistics and security considerations to the mix.

While getting out of particularly dangerous regions/conflicts is generally agreed upon (though I think we ought to develop criteria for that, since there's lots of less extreme scenarios where we can and should sit tight if we've prepped for them), the question of where to go or how wedded we can and should get to the new location still remains, since trouble could still flow out from the major urban centers to rural areas.

Perhaps on account of the mention of organized crime by myself and others, the discussion of that lesser but still serious threat seems thusfar to vary from simply enhancing the security of our homes and workplaces (least effective), ideally moving away from the bigger cities, perhaps sending children to relatives in other locales until the parents can move from their jobs, emmigrating away from the problem area (the Mexican from Monterrey should really consider immigrating to Canada!), or perhaps moving to the country and quietly hunkering down or collectively organizing a defence against any violent groups that follow.

Whether responding to something like narco-terrorism or heading out of the city to escape a more thorough breakdown of the social order, even isolated country homesteads and communities remain highly vulnerable. Some hardening of defences might be preferable to none, but depending on the severity of the threat, it almost sounds as if a more flexible response is required. Perhaps smaller towns and communities could try to establish local citizen defence forces of a couple companies to battalion size, or alternately groups of families and armed men and women could form into groups akin to the Jewish Partisans in the movie Defiance, whose experience of blending into the forests, setting up camp and moving as required to escape the Germans at least worked better to survive than any ghetto uprising ever did. That kind of activity (with families and children!) takes us far from the usual stockpiling of goods and localized defence that most people into prepping regularly think about, so it raises more questions in my mind than it answers. But since it's not the most likely scenario by a long shot, I think that we need to think of how much flexibility we should work into our other preparations to ensure that we're somewhat ready for it without turning around the rest of our activities and routines.  I can dig up several magazines from the 1970s and 80s about preparing for societal breakdown that look comical in retrospect, and consequently think that the trend of modern survivalism to evolve towards a more holistic approach to individual and group resilience capable of responding to a broad array of unknown challenges represents a positive development.

So my questions to the rest of you are what do you think we should be doing to build up resilience to these threats? If narco-terrorism expands further north and begins threatening our livelihoods, what can we do aside from move to another unaffected country. For other disasters and temporary or longer term breakdowns in order, what king of prepping and planning can or should we be doing, aside from moving to the country or developing a BOL? How can we judge whether an emerging threat is temporary and localized or a forewarning of greater troubles to come. And what kind of networking or community organizing should we be doing, especially considering that we won't be in control of much when things go south! If we could nail down a few guiding principles and perhaps a sense of the types of preparations they'd entail, I think we'd get a lot out of that.

Just one last further observation. Moving beyond individual preps, all this talk of the challenges following societal breakdown reminds me of the effectiveness of a few private military companies or small deployments of well trained soldiers to restore order in WROL regions, even in the face of far greater numbers of opponents. The few hundred soldiers of Executive Outcomes who quickly brought to its knees a much larger rebel force terrorizing Sierra Leone in the 1990s suggests that judicious deployment and use of force might sometimes counter a very substantial threat. After the departure of Executive Outcomes from Sierra Leone and utter failure of a large UN/African Union force to restore order, I think about 1-2000 British troops were deployed to set things aright in pretty short order.

P.S. I missed the past few posts as I was writing this.....so none of this was directed at the discussion about attacks on homes, etc.

Offline TexDaddy

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #134 on: November 26, 2012, 12:13:53 AM »
I have done some clean up work on this thread.

Personal attacks are not tolerated.

Keep the ideas going, keep the discourse open. Different points of view can help us find the best course.

The discussion must be kept civil.
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Offline flippydidit

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #135 on: November 26, 2012, 02:53:19 AM »
My perspective on this is coming from some of the same background as Cptd.  Thankfully we differ on quite a bit both philosophically, and strategically.  I'll do my best to clarify what I think we could be up against and offer some options that don't require taking to the seas.  Besides, I'm not at all convinced that putting yourself in a position that leaves you at the mercy of foreign countries and their navies or the open sea are a better option than U.S. soil.

First, the possibility of large gangs (motorcycle, narco-terrorists or gangbangers, et al) should not be ruled out.  Many of them have in fact been infiltrating military branches and law enforcement agencies to study tactics and command chains.  They have brought that acquired knowledge back to their groups and couple that with illegal firepower that the average law-abiding citizen cannot even attempt to compete with.  Second, should the U.S. government have a large hiccup and the power vacuum be filled with those who would vilify the prepper community, they would most likely have a large pool of resources and a substantial amount of CONSCRIPTS or VOLUNTEERS to deal with.  It depends on how they market the recruitment.

To address these, I'll start with the criminal element.  In the days of the Wild West (and it was wilder than some were taught), there really was only one way to deal with criminal gangs.  If you have delicate sensibilities you may want to stop reading.  That way was to deputize posses of armed men, hunt down every member of the gang and kill them, sometimes with public execution.  It didn't get any more simple than that.  You didn't fight fair.  Ambush them at a brothel, kill them in their sleep at camp, put a bounty on their heads and let mercenaries (American, Mexican, Native American) handle the dirty work for you.  It was a different time with different rules.  Dead or alive was not just a cliche.  There was no requirement for due process if they resisted capture.  For some thugs it was more or less just shoot first and haul the bodies in for identification and payment.  That was back when we had a spine.

Quote
"Grandpappy told my pappy, back in my day, son
A man had to answer for the wicked that he done" -Toby Keith: Beer For My Horses

We've allowed these cartels to develop into highly versatile syndicates.  We've given them time to train, arm and organize.  Simply picking a BOL and fortifying it isn't going to work.  You will need to be better trained, better coordinated and more ruthless than them.  The good news is that it is possible.

Quote
And one free man defending his home is more powerful than ten hired soldiers. -Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves

It's not an issue you can sugar coat.  In fact, many people choose to end their planning/assessment just shy of the real dirty business.  They get to that self-imposed mental block, "If they go after my loved ones, I'll just shoot them."

Then what?  There's still a few miles of planning beyond that, but many don't go any further.  I'd wager that the reasons are numerous.  Some have never taken a life.  Some don't want to think about what happens when their seemingly adequate plan doesn't go the way their mind's eye perceived it.  Others listen to people like Cptd and assume that it's futile because they might get killed or injured.  Boo hoo.  Contrary to some beliefs, you can't run forever.

That doesn't mean you have to throw up your hands.  It means that it's time to dig down and pull up the big boy pants and put on your thinking cap.  Does war suck?  Yes.  Do people get killed?  Yes.  Is your freedom worth fighting for?  Our forefathers thought so.  Personally, I couldn't run off in a boat even if I wanted to.  Silly me.  When I swore to defend our Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, I actually understood why....and meant it.  It isn't some "boastful, chest-beating, masculine" testosterone fueled patriotism that resulted in my service.  It was the understanding that in the history of our world this is the most free nation to ever exist.  Our nation's existence is a mere speck in the history of the world.  What are the chances of ever creating that again?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 03:23:45 AM by flippydidit »
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Offline flippydidit

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #136 on: November 26, 2012, 03:21:51 AM »
Sorry, I figured I'd split it into another post because of the length.

So.  How do we address a squaring off with the government?  Well first, and most critical, is that it is identified as a tyranny by our Constitution.  Just because you don't like some of the laws or programs in effect, does not make it a tyranny.  When you were a child and your parent swatted you on the butt and took away your toys did not make them an abusive parent worthy of having their rights stripped (not so sure the law agrees now).  Every organization, no matter how big is made up of individuals.  Under no circumstances will everyone agree or share the same beliefs.  Ever.  That's wishful utopian thinking and not reality.  That's why we have a government.  It's why we have a Constitution.  So for those out there that espouse anarchy, I've got a news bulletin.  You don't know what you're talking about.  If you think that "only the strong survive" is the answer for this nation, you'll be dead by about Day 2 (my guess).  So DON't BREAK ANY LAWS, and DON'T COMMIT CRIMINAL OR TERRORIST ACTS!!

Moving into it a little deeper I will say that you MUST be sure it is an unConstitutional government tyranny.  Full blown dictatorial Fascism, Nazism, Communism, etc.  You must also determine if this is something that must be fought.  If we're talking gas chambers, ovens, mass murder, or some other crimes against humanity then I would venture to say, "Wolverines!"  But if this is a case of a Depression with austere living and stricter enforcement of laws then you aren't even close yet.  Think about it.  You haven't revolted yet.  The U.S. and local governments have trounced on every Constitutional Right you have.  They've already done it.  Why haven't you revolted yet?  You know why.  We still have a modicum of Rule of Law, and it is for the most part Constitutional.

So let's say the day has come where all the T's are crossed and the I's are dotted.  We have a sociopathic "government" that makes the Nazi's look like the local stamp collecting club.  What can we do to restore rule of law in accordance with our Constitution?

First, my earlier statement.  Any organization is made up of individuals.  Other statements made regarding going toe-to-toe with the military of a developed nation (America or Amerika) are absurd.  Cptd was correct in that regard.  You will be slaughtered quite swiftly.  That is an example of "attrition warfare".  It's well suited to most larger military missions.  You and Grandpa Joe are not a large army.  We need to focus on small unit tactics.  The term we want to utilize is "maneuver warfare" or "guerrilla warfare".  It's much more involved than what most people conceptualize.  Hit and run is only one aspect.  The actual goal should be (my opinion) to make each and every individual fear to put on the uniform each morning.  Do more than "blend in".  Be a quiet, submissive citizen of this new government.  You are an example of "hiding in plain sight".  Don't use electronic or other sophisticated means to "communicate and plan" with other resistance fighters.  Be a single cell.  Execute your missions and go right back to producing apples.

I'd recommend reading "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross.  It's a very awesome book and goes into different plots with a lot of helpful suggestions.  I'll wrap up here and listen to what others have to add.  After all, I'm not going to live on a boat, so I don't need to practice hijacking anything (threads or otherwise).

 ;D
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Offline cptd

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #137 on: November 26, 2012, 03:47:42 AM »
cr
My perspective on this is coming from some of the same background as Cptd.  Thankfully we differ on quite a bit both philosophically, and strategically.  I'll do my best to clarify what I think we could be up against and offer some options that don't require taking to the seas.  Besides, I'm not at all convinced that putting yourself in a position that leaves you at the mercy of foreign countries and their navies or the open sea are a better option than U.S. soil.

First, the possibility of large gangs (motorcycle, narco-terrorists or gangbangers, et al) should not be ruled out.  Many of them have in fact been infiltrating military branches and law enforcement agencies to study tactics and command chains.  They have brought that acquired knowledge back to their groups and couple that with illegal firepower that the average law-abiding citizen cannot even attempt to compete with.  Second, should the U.S. government have a large hiccup and the power vacuum be filled with those who would vilify the prepper community, they would most likely have a large pool of resources and a substantial amount of CONSCRIPTS or VOLUNTEERS to deal with.  It depends on how they market the recruitment.

To address these, I'll start with the criminal element.  In the days of the Wild West (and it was wilder than some were taught), there really was only one way to deal with criminal gangs.  If you have delicate sensibilities you may want to stop reading.  That way was to deputize posses of armed men, hunt down every member of the gang and kill them, sometimes with public execution.  It didn't get any more simple than that.  You didn't fight fair.  Ambush them at a brothel, kill them in their sleep at camp, put a bounty on their heads and let mercenaries (American, Mexican, Native American) handle the dirty work for you.  It was a different time with different rules.  Dead or alive was not just a cliche.  There was no requirement for due process if they resisted capture.  For some thugs it was more or less just shoot first and haul the bodies in for identification and payment.  That was back when we had a spine.

We've allowed these cartels to develop into highly versatile syndicates.  We've given them time to train, arm and organize.  Simply picking a BOL and fortifying it isn't going to work.  You will need to be better trained, better coordinated and more ruthless than them.  The good news is that it is possible.

It's not an issue you can sugar coat.  In fact, many people choose to end their planning/assessment just shy of the real dirty business.  They get to that self-imposed mental block, "If they go after my loved ones, I'll just shoot them."

Then what?  There's still a few miles of planning beyond that, but many don't go any further.  I'd wager that the reasons are numerous.  Some have never taken a life.  Some don't want to think about what happens when their seemingly adequate plan doesn't go the way their mind's eye perceived it.  Others listen to people like Cptd and assume that it's futile because they might get killed or injured.  Boo hoo.  Contrary to some beliefs, you can't run forever.

That doesn't mean you have to throw up your hands.  It means that it's time to dig down and pull up the big boy pants and put on your thinking cap.  Does war suck?  Yes.  Do people get killed?  Yes.  Is your freedom worth fighting for?  Our forefathers thought so.  Personally, I couldn't run off in a boat even if I wanted to.  Silly me.  When I swore to defend our Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, I actually understood why....and meant it.  It isn't some "boastful, chest-beating, masculine" testosterone fueled patriotism that resulted in my service.  It was the understanding that in the history of our world this is the most free nation to ever exist.  Our nation's existence is a mere speck in the history of the world.  What are the chances of ever creating that again?
My perspective on this is coming from some of the same background as Cptd.  Thankfully we differ on quite a bit both philosophically, and strategically.  I'll do my best to clarify what I think we could be up against and offer some options that don't require taking to the seas.  Besides, I'm not at all convinced that putting yourself in a position that leaves you at the mercy of foreign countries and their navies or the open sea are a better option than U.S. soil.

First, the possibility of large gangs (motorcycle, narco-terrorists or gangbangers, et al) should not be ruled out.  Many of them have in fact been infiltrating military branches and law enforcement agencies to study tactics and command chains.  They have brought that acquired knowledge back to their groups and couple that with illegal firepower that the average law-abiding citizen cannot even attempt to compete with.  Second, should the U.S. government have a large hiccup and the power vacuum be filled with those who would vilify the prepper community, they would most likely have a large pool of resources and a substantial amount of CONSCRIPTS or VOLUNTEERS to deal with.  It depends on how they market the recruitment.

To address these, I'll start with the criminal element.  In the days of the Wild West (and it was wilder than some were taught), there really was only one way to deal with criminal gangs.  If you have delicate sensibilities you may want to stop reading.  That way was to deputize posses of armed men, hunt down every member of the gang and kill them, sometimes with public execution.  It didn't get any more simple than that.  You didn't fight fair.  Ambush them at a brothel, kill them in their sleep at camp, put a bounty on their heads and let mercenaries (American, Mexican, Native American) handle the dirty work for you.  It was a different time with different rules.  Dead or alive was not just a cliche.  There was no requirement for due process if they resisted capture.  For some thugs it was more or less just shoot first and haul the bodies in for identification and payment.  That was back when we had a spine.

We've allowed these cartels to develop into highly versatile syndicates.  We've given them time to train, arm and organize.  Simply picking a BOL and fortifying it isn't going to work.  You will need to be better trained, better coordinated and more ruthless than them.  The good news is that it is possible.

It's not an issue you can sugar coat.  In fact, many people choose to end their planning/assessment just shy of the real dirty business.  They get to that self-imposed mental block, "If they go after my loved ones, I'll just shoot them."

Then what?  There's still a few miles of planning beyond that, but many don't go any further.  I'd wager that the reasons are numerous.  Some have never taken a life.  Some don't want to think about what happens when their seemingly adequate plan doesn't go the way their mind's eye perceived it.  Others listen to people like Cptd and assume that it's futile because they might get killed or injured.  Boo hoo.  Contrary to some beliefs, you can't run forever.

That doesn't mean you have to throw up your hands.  It means that it's time to dig down and pull up the big boy pants and put on your thinking cap.  Does war suck?  Yes.  Do people get killed?  Yes.  Is your freedom worth fighting for?  Our forefathers thought so.  Personally, I couldn't run off in a boat even if I wanted to.  Silly me.  When I swore to defend our Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, I actually understood why....and meant it.  It isn't some "boastful, chest-beating, masculine" testosterone fueled patriotism that resulted in my service.  It was the understanding that in the history of our world this is the most free nation to ever exist.  Our nation's existence is a mere speck in the history of the world.  What are the chances of ever creating that again?

Now that's just plain insulting. I fought for the flag, too, and as a consequence of that I'm missing my left arm, six toes, two fingers on my good hand, and have minimal use of my left leg because when they removed the shrapnel from my brain cavity there was, shall we say, collateral damage.

You're telling ME that I need to "put on my big boy pants?"

Go back to your video games, kiddo. I don't need a lecture from you on the nature of war.

If there are battalions of enemy soldiers moving openly across our country then the America we know of - the America that I fought for - is dead, and I'm not too proud, vain, or stupid to recognize that. My goal at this point in life is to survive and to ensure the survival of my family. Besides which, I wouldn't have much to contribute to a war effort anyway. I can barely walk.

I gave my allegiance to the constitution. THe government squandered that allegiance in wars that were completely unncessary and have nothing to do with our security.

Fight for your principles if it  comes to it. I hope it works out and that you restore the US to its former glory. I'll be praying for you if it comes to that, really I will.

My fighting days are done and there's nothing wrong with knowing when it's time to step down and let someone else fight the good fight. I've done enough.

Offline flippydidit

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #138 on: November 26, 2012, 04:13:40 AM »
Now that's just plain insulting. I fought for the flag, too, and as a consequence of that I'm missing my left arm, six toes, two fingers on my good hand, and have minimal use of my left leg because when they removed the shrapnel from my brain cavity there was, shall we say, collateral damage.

You're telling ME that I need to "put on my big boy pants?"

Go back to your video games, kiddo. I don't need a lecture from you on the nature of war.

If there are battalions of enemy soldiers moving openly across our country then the America we know of - the America that I fought for - is dead, and I'm not too proud, vain, or stupid to recognize that. My goal at this point in life is to survive and to ensure the survival of my family. Besides which, I wouldn't have much to contribute to a war effort anyway. I can barely walk.

I gave my allegiance to the constitution. THe government squandered that allegiance in wars that were completely unncessary and have nothing to do with our security.

Fight for your principles if it  comes to it. I hope it works out and that you restore the US to its former glory. I'll be praying for you if it comes to that, really I will.

My fighting days are done and there's nothing wrong with knowing when it's time to step down and let someone else fight the good fight. I've done enough.

It wasn't meant as an insult or a lecture, and I'm sorry if you took it personally.  We're allowed to disagree in this country.  There's nothing wrong with that, and I'm sorry that you feel my disagreement with you is a personal attack.  Your decisions on what you would do don't work for me, but that doesn't mean they won't for you.  The last statement was meant to tease you a little, not to be disrespectful.  Unfortunately there's no sarcasm font.

I appreciate your service and thank you for it.  I'm in agreement with you about the direction our foreign policy has gone, and the illegitimate wars our brothers in arms have all been in.  I've also served active duty in the Infantry.  For 10 years.  I've been shot and blown up a few times myself.  After I got out I ended up going back to Iraq and Afghanistan.  In fact, I'm in Afghanistan right now.  Still have my fingers and toes, and probably the same number of metal objects still in me.

Should our nation reach the point of having battalions of professional soldiers across the countryside it might be too late.  It's doubtful that would ever happen.  There's a build up to that.  Besides, I've seen the soldiers of today.  I'm sure those were the video game kiddos you were thinking of.  In the event that fighting needs to be done, I'll be there to join the fight.  Should we prevail, please come back.  We need all our veterans.
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Offline nelson96

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #139 on: November 26, 2012, 09:23:40 AM »
Gentle nudge guys >>>>>> We're heading a bit off topic and maybe even mixing scenario's set up from different thread topics.
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Offline flippydidit

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #140 on: November 26, 2012, 10:01:01 AM »
Indeed!  Continue mission.

The topic being gang's afoot; how best to best them?  It is true that with training, firepower and organization a fighting force can be many times more lethal than a lesser force many times larger.  With the use of combat multipliers and devastating tactics a group can become exponentially more lethal than the first two options.  Add in that those defenders are fighting for their lives, families and home?  Well....
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Offline cptd

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #141 on: November 26, 2012, 10:32:00 AM »
Indeed!  Continue mission.

The topic being gang's afoot; how best to best them?  It is true that with training, firepower and organization a fighting force can be many times more lethal than a lesser force many times larger.  With the use of combat multipliers and devastating tactics a group can become exponentially more lethal than the first two options.  Add in that those defenders are fighting for their lives, families and home?  Well....

Either way, if it's that bad I'm not sticking around. I have plenty of good reasons.

As for not being able to "run forever" I think a lot of the early settlers of this country would disagree. The good ol' USA exists largely because people in Europe fled when things got bad for them. People hopped on boats and set sail for a better life.

There will be stable, English-speaking democracies out there when the SHTF here. I've spent a lot of time and energy researching where to go to wait it out. There is no place quite like home, I suppose, but if home has deteriorated into a daily gunfight to protect my barrels of rice and beans. . . that's not exactly the quality of life that I want for myself, or for my kids. Talking about marauding, well-armed gangs staging organized raids? What kind of life is that? That's North Africa. I don't have any desire to live in conditions like that.

Even if I were fit to fight (which I'm not) why would I want to live that way? Raise my kids that way?

My advice to the original scenario stands. Get out and make a new life somewhere else.

Offline livinitup0

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #142 on: November 26, 2012, 10:44:33 AM »
"As for not being able to "run forever" I think a lot of the early settlers of this country would disagree. The good ol' USA exists largely because people in Europe fled when things got bad for them. People hopped on boats and set sail for a better life."

Different world IMO
Different times IMO

Im interested in your research of where you're going to ride all this stuff out and what your backup plan is if you cant get there.


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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #143 on: November 26, 2012, 11:44:45 AM »
Gentle nudge guys >>>>>> We're heading a bit off topic and maybe even mixing scenario's set up from different thread topics.

Wow,

There were a bunch of posts that came and left between the last time I posted. Hopefully everyone's calmed down a bit since then.

I hope I'm not going too far off topic if I post an article in today's Daily Mail about a former mayor and mother of three kids whose been executed by Mexican Drug Gangs. In addition to adding the issue of ongoing gang violence to the discussion, it also offers an uncomfortable indication of the types of characters who may come to the fore if we ever lost the rule of law:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2238577/Maria-Santos-Gorrostieta-executed-surviving-assassination-attempts.html

As for some of the previous entries speaking about the original post as a reason to be prepared to fight a guerrilla war, I suppose that's relevant insofar as it speaks to the dangers of a static homestead defence in a WROL/wartime scenario, but I'm still at a loss as to what that means in practical terms. Sure, one might want to work some sort of mobility into one's emergency planning as well as avoid the "bunker mentality" so often associated with prepping/survivalism, but for private individuals to essentially prepare to fight a guerrilla war in the event of a breakdown of our social fabric certainly appears impractical, unless we're simply talking about developing an awareness of what could happen and how to respond if we ever came to that point. I doubt that anyone here is advocating that we make arming ourselves and training for such an unlikely scenario the focus of our lives, but I'm still at a loss as to what to make of this discussion.

In the more likely scenario of increased violence within a somewhat ordered society (i.e. the drug wars aluded to above), is there anything we can and should do to prepare ourselves for that, since nobody is going to advocate living in the wilderness like guerrilla warriors to protect their families from that. Furthermore, what might or should we do in our everyday lives and preparations to ready ourselves for something more akin to the larger scale looting that might happen in the worst case scenario. Note that "should" in the previous sentence doesn't just mean what we can do, but whether or not it's worth the trouble given the real likelihood of the threat.

Any ideas?

Offline Canadian Prepper

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #144 on: November 26, 2012, 11:50:57 AM »
"As for not being able to "run forever" I think a lot of the early settlers of this country would disagree. The good ol' USA exists largely because people in Europe fled when things got bad for them. People hopped on boats and set sail for a better life."

Different world IMO
Different times IMO

Im interested in your research of where you're going to ride all this stuff out and what your backup plan is if you cant get there.

I share the same sentiments.

While I should be pursuing my Hungarian and by extension EU citizenship that would at least give me a few more options, the list of alternate places to head to are sparse. It's something I'd consider adding to my bag of tricks, but I wouldn't leave it as my only option if at all possible.

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #145 on: November 26, 2012, 12:08:52 PM »
"As for not being able to "run forever" I think a lot of the early settlers of this country would disagree. The good ol' USA exists largely because people in Europe fled when things got bad for them. People hopped on boats and set sail for a better life."

Different world IMO
Different times IMO

Im interested in your research of where you're going to ride all this stuff out and what your backup plan is if you cant get there.

My apologies for the multiple postings, but I just perused the other threads and noticed the others about the end of the republic, life at sea, etc. and see what Nelson was getting at when he said that we're mixing a bunch of topics into one!  I know that I've brought some outside topics into this discussion (mainly the Mexican drug cartels) but perhaps we should ascertain to what extent the option of emmigration applies to this thead. If I have a family to raise, I'm going to want to raise them in one place for the most part and perhaps plan for an alternate region or country, but that option is hardly available or ideal for everyone. 

Offline flippydidit

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #146 on: November 26, 2012, 12:56:07 PM »
There definitely is a mixture in these threads with similar subjects.  It's difficult to decide which one to post in sometimes.  I'm going to put mine here, and maybe it's a better choice than the other threads.

I'll admit that I have a partial bias to life at sea.  I'm not a fan of seafood, and I hate sharks.  That's about the end of my bias with that bug out plan.  The rest is math and history.  As near as I can tell, their aren't the available sensors on the ground to pinpoint my family's location (civilian owned).  On a boat you have commercially available radar, sonar and radios to locate a vessel at sea.  Yes I know the sea is a big place.  However, the navies of countries out there have VERY developed sensors.  They can and will find you.  I'm not saying that post-event the country of Argentina is going to suddenly begin hunting down American civilian vessels.  I'm saying there is the possibility that military warships may be sold to "other" groups (anyone remember the Soviets?).

So I brought up the boat issue in this thread to highlight the importance of land based bug in and bug out reasons.  You need land to grow crops and livestock.  Especially if you want to feed a family.  You need it to be secure from the roving gangs of doom, and with land you can really store a lot of things you'll need (it might even be enough).  If you've ever moved from one place to another (new home) you know it isn't a one or two hour ordeal.  Many people think they're going to pack up everything they need into a vehicle, bug out, and then automagically live happily ever after.  I'd recommend looking at the way early American and Australian pioneers prepared for their journeys.  They planned as if they wouldn't have access to stores for years or decades.  They packed their buckboards and Conestoga's to the brim, then tied things to the side.  We need to be more realistic with what we're trying to accomplish and why.  Then we can handle the how's.  Lets not put the Conestoga before the ox.

The reason I bring up the pioneers, is that even with all that "stuff", they knew that it would ASSIST them in making a new life.  That new life needed to be productive.  They had to grow crops, raise livestock, cut timber, do anything that would provide for their family.  Eventually those "things" will run out.  Either on land, at sea or in outer space.  With that in mind I'm always leaning toward bugging in at your bug out location (on land).  If you can actually live at the property where you will ride out the tumultuous change, you will exponentially increase your ability to be self-reliant.  Are you really going to load up all that food, water, ammo and your firearms and bug out to another location?  Does your trunk have room for 5-10 head of cattle?  How about their feed?  That's the point I wanted to make.  It just took me a few posts to get my thoughts straight.

Also, if you're already at your BOL, you have the opportunity to develop relationships with your neighbors.  <GASP>  What?!?  Actually get to know my neighbors?  Crazy talk.  Develop your community now.  Do like Jack has said and develop that strong community now.  Remember what he said, "If times get bad, or even if they don't."
Nate
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Offline cptd

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #147 on: November 26, 2012, 02:08:42 PM »
I think it unlikely that communities of farmers will have any kind of quality of life if there are gangs of disciplined, organized raiders running amok and the government can't contain them for whatever reason... I'm not saying you won't survive for a year or three but against the kind of threat that was mentioned in the original post, if you are constantly fighting off these raiders as a small community, sooner or later attrition will do you in. they can go back to the city for replacements. you can't .

its not a sustainable situation no matter how much you do, which is why my assessment of the original post is still my best advice.

no one can live forever under constant attack. and even if you could your quality of life would be pr

Offline livinitup0

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #148 on: November 26, 2012, 02:39:04 PM »
"sooner or later attrition will do you in...."

actually... if they're not producing their own resources then they're living on borrowed time and if thats the case then you've kind of got that backwards. If Im holding them off, and other survivors are holding them off... then what are the gangs living on? On top of that... gangs organize for a reason, numbers = resources... i mean its not for friendship or songs around the campfire. If a gang member isnt getting resources from their gang... they wont be a gang member for much longer.

I think the roaming gangs would definitely be a problem... but only for a time. That kind of anarchy is not sustainable.

Offline endurance

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Re: Bugging Out - Bugging in?? . . . Gangs are Afoot
« Reply #149 on: November 26, 2012, 02:45:56 PM »
"sooner or later attrition will do you in...."

actually... if they're not producing their own resources then they're living on borrowed time and if thats the case then you've kind of got that backwards. If Im holding them off, and other survivors are holding them off... then what are the gangs living on? On top of that... gangs organize for a reason, numbers = resources... i mean its not for friendship or songs around the campfire. If a gang member isnt getting resources from their gang... they wont be a gang member for much longer.

I think the roaming gangs would definitely be a problem... but only for a time. That kind of anarchy is not sustainable.
+1  At some point they'll have to realize that if they kill the goose that laid the golden egg, they'll be very hungry. 

Without access to farm machinery, fertilizer, and pesticides, farmers will be less productive, not more.  There will be a need for more people who know how to produce food, not less.  There will be a demand for more field labor, not less.

Of course if your idea of prepping is putting up a five year larder of food and have no active food production, well, that's easy enough to take.  But if you have enough to get you through to next season cached and secured plus a large garden or acreage under cultivation, they'd be fools to take you out.  Not saying it wouldn't happen, but they'd be fools.
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