Author Topic: antibiotics???  (Read 15311 times)

Offline jr doyle

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antibiotics???
« on: October 23, 2012, 12:29:47 PM »
hello all.
i was listening to an older show yesterday (doc bones and nurse amy) and they had stated that fish antibiotics could be used in place of prescriptions in hard times. i like this idea but i have a problem, which antibiotic for which ailment? is there a publication or anything else out there that could help me figure this one out. maybe it doesnt really matter which one you take but i have doubts because my doctor has always had a "reason" behind whichever antibiotic he has ever prescribed me so i would believe each one has a different use/result right?
 thanks

Offline archer

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2012, 12:33:25 PM »
Check this thread that Doc Watmo put together. http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=15348.0

Offline excaliber

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2012, 08:48:03 AM »
DISCLAMER, not telling this is good or bad or that you should do this, but this is my plan, I have the 3 major antibiotics that are for Fish. I also have a physicians desk reference to help me diagnose my issue and what I need along with a neighbor that is an RN, this is only for a SHTF/civilization colapse scenario. otherwise I use my health insurance and go see a doctor.

here is the reference I was talking about  http://www.amazon.com/Physicians-Desk-Reference-66th-Staff/dp/156363807X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1346938856&sr=1-1&keywords=physicians+desk+reference+2012

Offline PE

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2012, 08:09:51 PM »
I fortunately live in a country where I can consult with a pharmacist (usually at the oldest and most well known of all the pharmacies in town) and get just about anything from them for legitimate ailments.  They are not going to hand out class narcotics by any means, but they know as much or more than the pill-peddling clinics do (that are very prevalent in Thailand).  I needed a steroid for a severe inflammation condition and got Predisone right over the counter...try that in a country where medicine is just a racket.  Having said that....going to one of the clinics...you will be sent home with a bag full of meds....the old shotgun approach.  Needless to say, the down side of this is that antibiotics are so overused here that someday....none of them are going to work.  PE

Offline fred.greek

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Fish Antibiotics
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2016, 09:40:34 AM »
If I read the document at the link correctly, it would seem that fish antibiotics, a popular aspect of “prepper” lore, will as of this coming January require all to go to a veterinarian and get a prescription to make a purchase.

http://www.fda.gov/animalveterinary/developmentapprovalprocess/ucm482106.htm


Pre-new law, do you know anyone who could make a recommendation of product and dose to “stock up”, assuming four mature fish in our tank?

A sample source:
https://www.jefferspet.com/categories/meds-vaccines/by-animal/fish-1


The lady at the youtube link appears to argue the new regulation has the potential to dramatically impact farmers, even cattle owners, if they have to get individual prescriptions to treat each animal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkPl0SZdb1A&feature=youtu.be

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2016, 09:53:40 PM »
.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2016, 10:19:34 PM »
I am on this vet advice forum, and they say there is alot of misinformation and that the new laws only apply to medicated feed, that the same antibiotics that you could get over the counter at the feed store -- excepting medicated feed -- could still be bought.

I should ask about water soluable, like you linked. Could be that water soluable is moving to Rx because it can systemically treat more than one animal at once. they are trying to keep people from giving antibiotics in feed ( or likely water) because of overuse to animals that didnt need to be treated.

It is the antibiotics that we give the farm animals individually by injection that we can still get.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2016, 10:30:47 PM »
found the answer the other day on goat vet corner " Ken Brown Dvm the last post on water soluble and OTC to Rx is referring to ONLY antibiotics when added to WATER as a method of use, not to the injection drugs. it is specific to GFI 213 and is related to the veterinary feed directive to cease using antibiotics in feed or water without a veterinary directive. "

But, it can be messed up for the home or small animal owner if water is best way, such as medicating chickens (and maybe fish ? ) Many areas do not have vets, which is why that forum exists, it is a forum where vets get a small subsidy to answer peoples questions, an outreach service for areas without livestock vets.

Offline xxdabroxx

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2016, 10:54:06 AM »
I think the problem for preppers is that we could previously buy fish antibiotics for use on ourselves but it sounds like that won't be available any more after the first?

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2016, 11:02:10 AM »
After some research, and my own personal experiences, I settled on amoxicillin.

It might not be the best for every scenario, but it does some good in almost every scenario, and is excellent for others.

Offline xxdabroxx

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2016, 11:47:33 AM »
Smurf, were you buying the fish mox?

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2016, 12:03:00 PM »
Smurf, were you buying the fish mox?

https://www.campingsurvival.com/fish-and-bird-antibiotics.html


I went with Fish Mox - Amoxicillin 250mg (100 Count)

I figured the 250mg dose gave more dosage flexibility for lighter duty or small kids.
Also the quantity 100 seemed a sweet spot in pricing.

Try coupon code "ICE".  Not sure if it's still active.

Only complaint is the shipping speed is not on par with my expectations.  Placed order Thanksgiving weekend and it just shipped yesterday :(

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2016, 12:12:38 PM »
I think the problem for preppers is that we could previously buy fish antibiotics for use on ourselves but it sounds like that won't be available any more after the first?

Sounds that way.

As preppers, we also should not be afraid to do an injection of Penicilin B on any mammal ( goats, dogs, humans...) in need. Some thing are better treated with amoxicillan, some with penicilin....

I have an unopened penecilin B in the fridge, and some siringes, in case of need.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2016, 12:31:13 PM »
https://www.campingsurvival.com/fish-and-bird-antibiotics.html


I went with Fish Mox - Amoxicillin 250mg (100 Count)

I figured the 250mg dose gave more dosage flexibility for lighter duty or small kids.
Also the quantity 100 seemed a sweet spot in pricing.

Try coupon code "ICE".  Not sure if it's still active.

Only complaint is the shipping speed is not on par with my expectations.  Placed order Thanksgiving weekend and it just shipped yesterday :(

coupon code ICE still worked just now, I think it was about 5% ? thanks for the tip !  I hadnt thought about how this ban also applied to the fish antibiotics.

Offline Ms. Albatross

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2016, 01:25:49 PM »
Dr. Joe Alton of Doom and Bloom wrote about this issue on his website back in October. 
https://www.doomandbloom.net/the-future-of-fish-antibiotics-in-survival/

Quote
Lately, I’ve received a lot of mail asking about the upcoming FDA Veterinary Feed Directive. Does it mean the end of the availability of fish and bird meds for placement in disaster medical storage?

Quote
If you look at the list [of the drugs affected by the Veterinary Feed Directive], you’ll see no mention of the common aquarium/avian antibiotics used in the pet industry. Fish-Mox (Amoxicillin) is not included in the list. Neither is doxycycline, metronidazole, nor others that I’ve recommended for disaster storage.

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2016, 01:27:14 PM »
coupon code ICE still worked just now, I think it was about 5% ? thanks for the tip !  I hadnt thought about how this ban also applied to the fish antibiotics.

I'm not a doctor, nurse or anyone who is qualified to give any sort of advice.  From my reading, anything penicillin can do, amoxicillin can do better.  Again, that's my lay-persons opinion.

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2016, 07:04:15 PM »
Dr. Joe Alton of Doom and Bloom wrote about this issue on his website back in October. 
https://www.doomandbloom.net/the-future-of-fish-antibiotics-in-survival/
Thanks for pointing this out.  Dr. Bones & Nurse Amy are as close to definitive as we're going to get on this.  Glad to have the straight scoop.

Offline RitaRose1945

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2016, 07:44:41 PM »
I've probably talked about this before, but I just wanted to give a heads up to everyone thinking about Fish Mox.


Yes, it's a really good prep, and it does work.


But if you do have alternatives you can use, please use them instead.


After I was laid off in 2013, I ended up with a respiratory infection. I didn't have insurance, and oregano oil, which had worked really well for other issues my son and I had, was just not making a dent in it.


I gave in and tried the Fish Mox, and yes, it worked.  The infection left.  But so did a major chunk of my good gut bacteria.  For a long time.


This hadn't happened, at least not to this extent, with any others I had tried - oregano oil, ZPac, and others in past years.  And I know it sounds like no big deal - hey, just have a little yogurt, right? - but it took until just recently (so a  few years) of taking some really good probiotics to finally repopulate my gut and get it healthy again.


Just fair warning, because screwing up your gut bacteria causes all kinds of problems.  Take Fish Mox when you need to, but stick with the more recent, better stuff when you can.

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2016, 09:05:40 AM »
Slightly off topic, but I brought my dogs for their annual veterinary appointment and vaccinations.  One of my dogs had a mild infection on her skin.
Doc gave an RX and suggested I go to Walmart.

2 weeks (twice a day) worth was only $4 cash.  No insurance, nothing.  Just $4.00. 

Obviously you need an RX from a Vet.  but it's curious that when it's prescribed for a pet how the price drops...

Offline CPT Morgan

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2016, 09:37:51 AM »
Obviously you need an RX from a Vet.  but it's curious that when it's prescribed for a pet how the price drops...

Curious is not the word I would use....  Just say'n  8)

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2016, 10:12:46 AM »
Slightly off topic, but I brought my dogs for their annual veterinary appointment and vaccinations.  One of my dogs had a mild infection on her skin.
Doc gave an RX and suggested I go to Walmart.

2 weeks (twice a day) worth was only $4 cash.  No insurance, nothing.  Just $4.00. 

Obviously you need an RX from a Vet.  but it's curious that when it's prescribed for a pet how the price drops...

yes, I was proscribed a long course of Bicillin some years ago (never took it as I couldnt afford a local doctor visit twice a week to inject, and my dd was too young), Bicillin is basically just Penicillin G, but pre-loaded in syringes for the human market ( the livestock one is penicillin G procaine, the human is penicillin G benzathine). I have a 100ml bottle in the fridge for livestock that costs $8. The box of Bicillin syringes was very expensive, thousands maybe ? I forget -- but, it is crazy.

The feed stores also sell penicillin G benzathine, for horses as Dura-Pen. One of the differences between pen...procaine and pen...benzathine is release time. the benzathine is slower release, so if you ever had to substitute and use the procaine one, unlikely for people here in normal circumstances, but if you did, you would likely need to take lower doseage more often.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 10:33:58 AM by mountainmoma »

Offline Chris Gilliam

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2016, 03:54:58 PM »
I had a toothache last Saturday. Did some Google and figured out it was a root canal. Well, it's the weekend, and it was getting bad, so I started my fish mox. By the time I got to the dentist on Monday it was already getting better. She prescribed Clindamycin, so I spent $76 on a bottle of crap that tasted too bad to use. (I do not swallow pills. Never have, never will. Gag reflex.) So, less than half of my $15 bottle of fish mox saved my butt. So yeah, it works.

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2016, 04:04:06 PM »
(I do not swallow pills. Never have, never will. Gag reflex.)

stock up on IV supplies...

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2016, 02:47:11 PM »
stock up on IV supplies...

Not IV supplies, injection supplies. Injection would likely be IM, Inter Muscular.

IV ( Inter Venous ? ) is more serious, more possibility of infection, IM is pretty easy. And, Penecillin G can kill you given IV, needs to be IM missing veins, so given in the Gluteous Maximus....which is why I cant reach on myself. I can do IM into my thigh just fine for other meds. I have had routine pushed IV Antibiotic meds for a few months, have to be much more careful on keeping everything clean. Rocephin is a IV delivered antibiotic, not penicillin, penicillin is IM. Not sure about other liquids antibiotics, do not do any without knowing.

Offline Knecht

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2016, 10:09:52 AM »
Can anyone please direct me to some reliable, straightforward information about fish antibiotics for prepping? What types, what they for, how much should one use?

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2016, 10:34:26 AM »
Can anyone please direct me to some reliable, straightforward information about fish antibiotics for prepping? What types, what they for, how much should one use?
Dr. Joe and Nurse Amy Alton's book "The Survival Medicine Handbook" is the complete source on the topic.  Here is the Amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Survival-Medicine-Handbook-essential-medical/dp/0988872552/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482081911&sr=8-1&keywords=joe+alton

You can find much of the information quickly and for free (though not as well organized) at their web site's articles page: https://www.doomandbloom.net/articles/.  The antibiotics info is here: https://www.doomandbloom.net/category/antibiotics-2/

Offline Knecht

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2016, 01:07:17 PM »
Thanks man!

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2016, 07:23:05 PM »
Thanks man!
You're most welcome.  How's non-medical-doctor access to this stuff in the Czech Republic?  (or if you prefer not to say, that's not a problem on this forum)  So far, access is still pretty good here.

Offline Greekman

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2016, 02:03:50 PM »
Dr. Joe and Nurse Amy Alton's book "The Survival Medicine Handbook" is the complete source on the topic.  Here is the Amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Survival-Medicine-Handbook-essential-medical/dp/0988872552/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482081911&sr=8-1&keywords=joe+alton

You can find much of the information quickly and for free (though not as well organized) at their web site's articles page: https://www.doomandbloom.net/articles/.  The antibiotics info is here: https://www.doomandbloom.net/category/antibiotics-2/

in contrast of this i have foudn a tidbit of info by "themountainRN", where he states that fish antibiotics are the same with human ones, BUT they are not to be cosnidered the same quality
somethign expected for any kind of mass production. Batches that are "off" are sold for other uses or different markets where the deviation from specs is admitable

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: antibiotics???
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2016, 06:24:47 PM »
in contrast of this i have foudn a tidbit of info by "themountainRN", where he states that fish antibiotics are the same with human ones, BUT they are not to be cosnidered the same quality
somethign expected for any kind of mass production. Batches that are "off" are sold for other uses or different markets where the deviation from specs is admitable
That's certainly plausible, GM.  Got any links?