Author Topic: Change in church policy  (Read 1311 times)

Offline M1Andy

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Change in church policy
« on: November 08, 2012, 07:43:39 PM »
I am interested in your opinions on this change of policy.  Oklahoma recently enacted Open Carry in the state.  Until then it did not appear that the church we attend had a policy regarding guns (stickers, stated policy, etc...), my assumptions was that there was probably a large number of people carrying in the building.  Church has membership of 7,000 plus btw.  When the law went into effect, the church went the other direction and posted stickers and statement of no guns on church property.  When I inquired about the change, the response was that it had to do with "the people that have access to the building during the day".  My thought exactly.  All of us carry understand why.  I am really irritated about this.  Your take?

Offline Mister Dark

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2012, 08:00:56 PM »
There are stickers that say "No open carry allowed"... 

I am somewhat divided on the whole open carry issue. I personally think I would still ccw even if open carry was alloed. The less people know, the less people know, you know?

I work in several area churches, and it has been interesting talking to folks about permission to carry. Some churches allowed it, some vehemently opposed having anyone with a firearm in the building.     

All I can recommend is go talk to a senior member of the staff. If you can get permission from someone high up in the church, then you are in business.
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Offline Torch

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2012, 08:37:35 PM »
Since the law requires you to have a CCW to open carry, why not just continue to carry concealed?  You can talk to the pastor, sure, and express your views and dissatisfaction with the policy but if you like the church just continue to carry concealed and nobody will be the wiser.

Offline M1Andy

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2012, 08:48:26 PM »
I too think that the "no open carry" stickers are the way to go in this situation.  The largest multiscreen theatre in the Norman area just went to that policy.  Very understandable following the Aurora shootings.  But not limiting one's ability to defend themselves.  Good way to go as well, especially where visitors are really looking to feel comfortable.
Talked to an associate pastor but going senior is good idea.  I wasn't openly carrying just didn't like the new policy.  You guys are great for responding so quickly.  Thanks

Offline bdhutier

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2012, 10:11:04 PM »
Does OK have mandatory posting regs like TX?  In TX, the entity can say whatever they want, but if the state mandated sign isn't posted in a conspicuous place, it's legal to carry.
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Offline rikkrack

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2012, 07:50:37 AM »
I would CC. Just me. And like stated about ask seniors in charge.

Where I am at signs have no weight in law. If someone has a LTCH then then they legally can at the places not prohibited (gov building, school, casino, etc). OC or CC doesn't matter. Now if the property owner or manager asks me to leave because of the OC/CC and I refuse then it is tresspassing. I have owned for 16 years. Only OC/CC within the last year. Jack made me open my eyes to my rights and I got informed. In the last year, and I OC/CC just depends on what I am wearing, I have had no issues with any bank, restaurant, store etc. I do not carry in the kids day care of schools (law). But everywhere else. It is also a state law that your employere may not ask if you are CC, have it in your car, or any other gun related question. They may not terminate because you refuse to answer if you CC. My Doc carries in the office. Got robbed for samples of meds they keep in office as hand outs. When he saw mine at an exam got us talking. I think more and more people are carring, and the stigma is going away that it once was.

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Offline soupbone

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2012, 08:07:40 PM »
@ M1Andy,

"Church has membership of 7,000 plus btw."

From a practical standpoint, with 7,000 members in your church, you are statistically likely to have a few people with serious psychological problems. As the Church deals with man's relationship to God and man's relationship to man, and that those relationships are the most ingrained and personal imaginable, a policy banning firearms on church property makes sense - someone MIGHT take it into their head to 'silence that heretic once and for all.' You never know.

I go to a fairly large (for the denomination) church whose theology just doesn't attract the fringes of Christianity, but even so, we have had several incidents with, shall we say, less than stable people; some of them involved asking for police assistance. No harm was done and no one was injured, thank God, but they were tense times. My church is in an area where cc is not really common - if it was, who knows what the outcome would be?

IMHO, some issues are just not worth the hassle. Carrying in church is one of them.

soupbone.
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Offline jim124816

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2012, 07:30:42 AM »
I DO NOT like the gov restricting 2nd amendment rights.  I DO support property owners (to include churches) to make certain rules as they relate to visitors on said property.  If an organization will not let you carry either concealed or otherwise it is your choice to conform or walk. 

A choice to ignore the will of the property owner IS disrespectful and maybe illegal in this case.  I recommend that if the church does not change the rule, then you leave the piece at home or find another place of worship that shares your beliefs.

We loose our moral high ground as a community if we violate the rights of others; in this case the sovereign right of the church to prohibit a certain activity on it's property.

Offline Torch

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2012, 08:38:02 AM »
Quote
a policy banning firearms on church property makes sense - someone MIGHT take it into their head to 'silence that heretic once and for all.' You never know.

soupbone, I appreciate where you're coming from but this comment just highlights why one SHOULD carry everywhere that they can.  You said it best yourself, 'You never know'.  You can rest assured that the crazy that might do harm will pay zero heed to the 'no firearms policy'.

As I see it there are three options here.

1.  Talk to the pastor, express your position, and hope and pray for a change in the policy.  But carry concealed in church anyway.
2.  Keep your mouth shut and carry concealed anyway.
3.  Find another church.

Offline Oil Lady

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2012, 08:58:18 AM »
Just an odd anecdote from my life ...

I went to a very small church about 20 years ago. And there were (about) 15 men in the church who were seen as the upstanding leadership-worthy caliber of church-goer. (My uncle was one sich upstanding member.) 

One of the decons was a postal worker, and during a few instances of mid-week Bible study, he would show up wearing his postal unifrom because he had JUST come from work and didn't have time to change. No big deal. We all knew him and we all knew he was a letter carrier, so it was just ... life, ya' know? Same with a few nurses and truck drivers -- they'd show up on Sunday mornings right after a shft wearing their uniforms.

My uncle was a state cop, so he was obligated to work every other weekend, so he mssed church a lot. And one year for Mother's Day, his wife (my aunt) was asked to speak briefly from the pulpit about motherhood. But he had to work that day so he was going to miss her one moment of speaking to the congregation.

Well ... he deliberately timed it so that he showed up at church --in full uniform, including his smokey hat-- right when she took the podium. He quickly slipped in the back, took off his hat, sat down, waved at her from the back, and she spoke. A few heads turned at his entrance, and a lot of knowing grins were sent his way (he is allowed to stop off and go to the bagthroom or pick up a cup of coffee from time to time, after all, so this was a "bathroom break" for him). 

After she was done speaking (she spoke for barely 5 minutes) he got up, waved at her with a smile, and left, heading back out to his squad car for the rest of his shift.

Anyway .... he came in with his gun in his holster in full view of anyone who was also in the back and able to see his sidearm. And that is a fact that never struck me before I came to TSP. Here at TSP I keep reading about the ongoinng conflicts with concealed carry and open carry. Granted, he was a cop (retired now) so he was expected to carry openly. But still, he brought it into the church. And yet no one batted an eye at the gun, just like no one bats an eye at othre pew-sitting people in uniform such as the guy in the postal uniform or the nurse in scrubs or the UPS driver in his brown suit. 
"This is the first scenario I've seen where I question the survivability of mankind." -- self-made billionaire Richard Rainwater in his business analysis of Peak Oil, "The Rainwater Prophecy," Fortune magazine, Dec 26, 2005

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Our parents used to say, "Don't worry, the government will take care of it."
And now our kids say, "Don't worry, the government will take care of us."

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Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2012, 10:16:10 AM »
One of the decons was a postal worker, and during a few instances of mid-week Bible study, he would show up wearing his postal unifrom because he had JUST come from work and didn't have time to change. No big deal. We all knew him and we all knew he was a letter carrier, so it was just ... life, ya' know?

was anyone else expecting a he went "postal" at church story here?
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Offline Thom

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2012, 10:28:28 AM »
was anyone else expecting a he went "postal" at church story here?

That's what I was waiting for.  But she makes a good point.  Nobody thinks twice about seeing a LEO with a sidearm.  Personally, I carry both openly and concealed (not generally at the same time) but nobody has said anything to me about it.  I generally steer clear of places that post their signs (in accordance with state law) stating that you're not allowed to carry there.  On occasion, I have gone concealed in such places.  I figure the point in carrying CONCEALED is so that people don't know you have it to begin with.  If the need for it arises, they're probably not going to complain about you having it.
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Offline Oil Lady

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2012, 11:00:54 AM »
was anyone else expecting a he went "postal" at church story here?

Sorry. I wasn't making that connection as I unearthed that memory and as I composed it's retelling in my head.   
"This is the first scenario I've seen where I question the survivability of mankind." -- self-made billionaire Richard Rainwater in his business analysis of Peak Oil, "The Rainwater Prophecy," Fortune magazine, Dec 26, 2005

"This is an emergency far worse than World War I and World War II put together." -- CEO of Virgin Airlines, Sir Richard Branson on Peak Oil in CNN's investigative report "We Were Warned: Out of Gas" June 2007/May 2008 03:05

"We've got provisions and lots of beer. The key word is survival on the new frontier." --Steely Dan 1983

"... it doesn’t really matter who is removing your civil liberties, whether it is being done by a democratic government, a kleptocracy, a dictatorship or even the green police. When your civil rights are gone, they’re gone, and you really are in trouble, no matter how good the cause." --UK journalist Anthony Harrington, "Peak Oil and Collapse Scenarios," QFinance, September, 2011

Our parents used to say, "Don't worry, the government will take care of it."
And now our kids say, "Don't worry, the government will take care of us."

No food shall be grown that Monsanto does not own. (It all started with the disastrous 1980 SCOTUS ruling on Diamond v Chakrabarty. Petition your Congressman to revoke all patents on living things.)

"The nation that destroys its soil destroys itself." FDR 1937

The Tin Foil Hat Song by the League of Lady Conspiracists

Offline joeinwv

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2012, 11:54:21 AM »
I carry concealed. My theory being, I am responsible for me and if no one knows, no one knows.

I completely ignore these signs.

Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2012, 12:23:48 PM »
Sorry. I wasn't making that connection as I unearthed that memory and as I composed it's retelling in my head.   

no worries.  I just wanted to make sure that I was not the only one...
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Offline M1Andy

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2012, 07:27:02 PM »
I have really appreciated the replies.  Thank you so much for all the opinions.  I think what has bothered me the most is the desire to respect the wishes of the property owner, especially with it being the church, and taking responsibility for protecting myself and the family.  Nobody there can do that for me.  Several things to consider, this is just the latest with the church.

Offline flippydidit

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2012, 05:18:26 AM »
If they are adamant on the "no firearms in the church policy", I'd personally respond with my own policy that I utilize with businesses.  "A gun-free zone is a Nate-free zone."  If they restrict my safety or that of others, they don't get my patronage.  It's just easier to take that stance than to get into squabbles at every place with "gun free zones" of any kind.  That's why there is COMPETITION!  Yay for the Republic!
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Offline Thom

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2012, 07:05:30 AM »
I would have a conversation with church leadership and, if they are unwilling to change the policy or at least bring the issue up before the congregation, then I would find another church to attend.
I'm tired of having to filter the crazy out of the news.

Offline Dainty

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2012, 06:37:50 PM »
Another way to approach it would be to bring up a concern of church security. The 2007 Church Life shooting was truncated because a security officer neutralized the shooter quickly. Depending on what sort of security (of any) your church has, you could point out how sorely lacking the response would be if the shooter had shown up at your church, and how many more lives probably would have been lost. Then would be the time to mention that you are licensed CCW and would be happy to volunteer to carry while at church so that if there ever was a shooting scenario you would be equipped to respond if/as appropriate.

That isn't to say anytime there is a shooting it is appropriate to pull your gun, but the idea is to simplify the argument so that those behind this policy can see the benefit of having you around and armed.

In fact, another idea would be to suggest they create a process for approving certain members carry, for this purpose. Really, it's doing the church a service. I understand not everyone who carries would like the church leaders knowing that they do, but I see it as an additional possibility for remaining in the church, carrying, and complying with the leadership's wishes.

Offline backwoods_engineer

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2012, 07:02:17 PM »
I'd be finding another church.  It's that important to me.

Someone said, "church carry is just not worth it."  I disagree.  Even Jesus' apostles were armed.  I will be armed in worship, and I will protect the lives of my family and my fellow worshipers.

Every Sunday I'm strapped.  As are several fellow concealed-carry permit holders at church.  It's the way it is.  If they ever said no, I would continue until they threw me out, and then I would find another church.

Offline cheryl1

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Re: Change in church policy
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2012, 02:34:40 PM »
Can't believe no one has posted this verse yet-Luke 22:36: The one who has a purse must take it, and likewise, a bag; the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one.

Carry in church anyway. Jesus trumps church policy. :)
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