OK BP -- let me get this right....

[Cedar]

BP will pay the US a settlement worth $4.5 billion over a period of five years, including $1.3 in criminal fines for the Deepwater Horizon disaster which messed up most of the Gulf.

BP has signed an agreement with Russia’s Rosneft to sell its entire stake in the joint venture TNK-BP. Rosneft will pay $17.1 billion and 12.84% of its shares for the stake. BP’s share in Rosneft will increase to 19.75% after the deal goes through. BP will implement the buy-back only after it resolves all conflicts and claims related to the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico.

In 2010 BP had -$4.91 billion loss recorded in 2010 with some cleanup costs.
In 2011 BP announced profits of $25.7 billion just a year after the Gulf disaster...
By September 2012 BP had $53.06 gross billion for the year

Anyone see anything wonky with these numbers that BP has to pay? CLEANING up the waters and the shoreline of the Gulf of Mexico after the Deepwater Horizon disaster of 2010 cost BP $14 billion, but economic costs were somewhere between $60 and $100 billion. Is BP paying for all the mess or is someone else picking up the tab?

Cedar

[Bob Spelled Backwards]

Isn't it sick!?  Right now in my state of Michigan we have "American" oil and gas companies that are actually Chinese owned fracking and poisoning our water supply.  But it's good for profits for a few so who cares about the consequences down the road, right? 

Threre is a new well I see everyday on my way to work out in the country with a huge flamestack really close to a let of people's homesteads and now with the temperature changes the nasty smell really Hangs in the air. 

[ID_Joker]

You're spot-on Cedar.  Bob Backwards too.  This is one of my biggest intellectual dilemas with completely free market economics.  The approach works IF you can somehow ensure that compensation for actual damages occurs (including all externalities).  In BP's case, if they knew in advance that the consequences for messing something up would be SOOOO severe that they couldn't afford it, they either wouldn't do it or they would take better precautions.  Same with fracking, etc. 

And believe me I use the phrase 'free market economics' very loosely here...obviously that's not what we have, but we can see the results under our system now.    The tragedy of the commons.  Grrrr. 

[nelson96]

Right now in my state of Michigan we have "American" oil and gas companies that are actually Chinese owned fracking and poisoning our water supply. 

Do you know of actual water supplies being poisened?  The media doesn't cover this very well.

[Cedar]

This is one of my favorite sites for looking up such things http://www.rtknet.org/

Scroll down the right a bit to Search for Toxic Releases and put in the info about the town, or company you want info on. Another way is to put in the zipcode and then go to Get list of Facilities

There is an article on Nuclear, Petroleum and Toxic Producing Facilities in Counties Hardest Hit by Sandy and one on fracking, just on the 'front page'. Canada also has a version of RTK, but I will have to remember what it is.

Cedar

[nelson96]

This is one of my favorite sites for looking up such things http://www.rtknet.org/

Scroll down the right a bit to Search for Toxic Releases and put in the info about the town, or company you want info on. Another way is to put in the zipcode and then go to Get list of Facilities

There is an article on Nuclear, Petroleum and Toxic Producing Facilities in Counties Hardest Hit by Sandy and one on fracking, just on the 'front page'. Canada also has a version of RTK, but I will have to remember what it is.

Thanks Cedar, but the article just makes a sweaping statement about water polution from fracking and does not give a direct example (proof).

Even though I do at times, I hate using internet sites to get information such as this.  You don't know what kind of organization manages it (left, right, conservative, liberal, communist, socialist, democrat, republican, etc) and/or their true agenda.  Some are very good at hiding it, even in the way they write. 

I want individual hard cases that can be substantiated.

[Cedar]

I want individual hard cases that can be substantiated.

Go to the Toxic Releases (TRI) Database section. That is what the companies reported themselves and where they were sent or disposed of.

Cedar

[nelson96]

Go to the Toxic Releases (TRI) Database section. That is what the companies reported themselves and where they were sent or disposed of.

I found your link, thanks . . . .  It was a long list, but I couldn't find any pollution attributed to drilling or fracking in Michigan.  There was some for refinery's.

[Shaunypoo]

Anyone see anything wonky with these numbers that BP has to pay? CLEANING up the waters and the shoreline of the Gulf of Mexico after the Deepwater Horizon disaster of 2010 cost BP $14 billion, but economic costs were somewhere between $60 and $100 billion. Is BP paying for all the mess or is someone else picking up the tab?

Where do you get the $60 to $100 billion number from?

[Cedar]

Where do you get the $60 to $100 billion number from?

Lots of sources, but here are two of them
http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/venturebiz/content/so-how-will-florida-really-know-when-bp-has-paid-enough-cover-economic-disaster

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-16/bp-may-saddle-asset-buyers-with-suits-as-claims-rise-toward-100-billion.html

The story gets better. Market Watch is reporting BP plans to take a $10 billion dollar tax credit against U.S. corporate taxes. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bp-taking-10-billion-tax-credit-from-spill-2010-07-27?reflink=MW_news_stmp

Cedar

[Cedar]

More up to date report since the others and wiki was dated 2010 http://www.na-businesspress.com/JAF/LeeY_Web12_1_.pdf

and one report by Oxford Economics, puts damage to tourism in the Gulf over the next three years at $7 - $23 billion. This is based on the tourism losses from prior oil spills around the world and the amount of time it took for tourists to resume previous vacation and recreation patterns. https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:B_FYMeoVyK0J:beyondoil.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/true-cost-of-oil-spill-fact-sheet-as-of-4-22-11.pdf+total+economic+loss+deepwater+horizon&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShafmTXd889VMJrsn3wfFi8dbYb1VMnK7MJLbY1DCYAueJIF9pD9Pto5SUXAyEpDYV7lsp-dXpPiXrQSPaMWwkwZV2-2CSC30qY3u-Q5Q7UxPUx3H1V-Nyr5nkNixxl2X_qs65F&sig=AHIEtbQFc1fwdeft3kRr0QQQAB56nwOzpw

Cedar

[nelson96]

and one report by Oxford Economics, puts damage to tourism in the Gulf over the next three years at $7 - $23 billion. This is based on the tourism losses from prior oil spills around the world and the amount of time it took for tourists to resume previous vacation and recreation patterns. https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:B_FYMeoVyK0J:beyondoil.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/true-cost-of-oil-spill-fact-sheet-as-of-4-22-11.pdf+total+economic+loss+deepwater+horizon&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShafmTXd889VMJrsn3wfFi8dbYb1VMnK7MJLbY1DCYAueJIF9pD9Pto5SUXAyEpDYV7lsp-dXpPiXrQSPaMWwkwZV2-2CSC30qY3u-Q5Q7UxPUx3H1V-Nyr5nkNixxl2X_qs65F&sig=AHIEtbQFc1fwdeft3kRr0QQQAB56nwOzpw

That report could (probably is) be skewed based on the fact that current economy issues has lowered tourism itself.  These reports always represent the worst scenario making their target look as bad as it can.

That said, these guys (all oil) are crooks and something should be done to reign them in.  But, how to do it?  Government only makes things worse and unfair in the process.  We are ALL spawn of our own policies, habits, practices, and greed.  I'll still take capitalism over any other.

[Oil Lady]

It took over 20 years for the courts to FINALLY settle the Exxon Valdez oil tanker catastrophe which ruined a huge section of the coast of Alaska. And the piss-poor settlememnt that Exoon spent millions of dollars to secure was to reduce the claim from $2.5 billlion to just $25 million. The court basically said that an award in the billions was unprecedented and had no basis in past settlements, so they couldn't justify it, especially since it wasn't a malicious event, just a silly accident is all.

To that I say bullshit.

Maybe such an award in unprecedented, but the degree of damage done to the  ecology and to the livelihoods of thousands of people and to future generations of people who would have rpeferred to live in their ancestral home was just as unprecedented.

[Cedar]

That report could (probably is) be skewed based on the fact that current economy issues has lowered tourism itself.  These reports always represent the worst scenario making their target look as bad as it can

True, but they did give a wide range and what the basis for their report was on "$7 - $23 billion. This is based on the tourism losses from prior oil spills around the world and the amount of time it took for tourists to resume previous vacation and recreation patterns.' It sounds reasonable to me.

I try to only drive 2x a week, walk when we can and why we got draft horses. 

Cedar

Cedar

[ttubravesrock]

especially since it wasn't a malicious event, just a silly accident is all.

To that I say bullshit.

Just to be clear, I want to make sure that you aren't saying that the Exxon-Valdez spill was intentional and that you are calling BS on the previous paragraph.

Also, look what has been popping up lately...

http://www.adn.com/2012/11/13/2691777/on-st-lawrence-island-no-clues.html

I suppose that it is remotely possible that the oil is leaking up naturally, but as far as I know there is no drilling for oil within hundreds of miles of this island.  It is also possible that the oil comes from Russian drilling.  Based on the island's location it could come from anywhere. Here is a current map.

The bird and the seal were found right about where the Alaska Coastal Water Current meets the Bering Shelf Water Current and the Aleutian North Slope Current. You will also notice that the Aleutian North Slope Current is fed by the Alaska Stream Current.

[Shaunypoo]

Lots of sources, but here are two of them
http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/venturebiz/content/so-how-will-florida-really-know-when-bp-has-paid-enough-cover-economic-disaster

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-16/bp-may-saddle-asset-buyers-with-suits-as-claims-rise-toward-100-billion.html

The story gets better. Market Watch is reporting BP plans to take a $10 billion dollar tax credit against U.S. corporate taxes. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bp-taking-10-billion-tax-credit-from-spill-2010-07-27?reflink=MW_news_stmp

Cedar

I appreciate the point you are making, and I agree, but none of those sources are definitive.

[Cedar]

I appreciate the point you are making, and I agree, but none of those sources are definitive.

And they might not be for a long long long time either.
Cedar