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Author Topic: Society SEEMS to've tanked, do you fight for the USA or join the New Republic?  (Read 3039 times)

Offline cptd

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That's certainly an honorable thing to do and I respect that as a noble course of action. It's good to know what you're willing to die for and everyone is different in that way.

Offline nelson96

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I guess that is where we differ. I don't feel I would be taking care of my family if I didn't help preserve my community. I know my actions would never make a difference nationwide, but what I do impacts my family and neighbors. And I personally couldn't walk away and leave them all to fend for themselves. My roots are too deep for that.

+1 Cheryl . . .  I understand cptd's point and if in his shoes I may feel the same way (and do in many ways), but conviction such as yours is what will be needed if our families are to have a future worth living in/for.


In the scenario given here, I'd want to be an observer.  How does this new government treat the people?  How do they deal with dissension in their own ranks?  How do they deal with conflicting opinions?  How do they treat those in their ranks that step over the line?  How do they treat the opposition?

Only after understanding a few of those things will I even begin to take sides.  Maybe this new government is behaving closer to the US Constitution than the old government and deserves my backing.  Maybe they're a bunch of wild tyrants that kill women and eat babies.  Without additional information, I'm not planning on taking sides.

Very good point too endurance. . . .  Observer first (while setting up to protect your family).  Second, be prepared to fight, but only for the right cause.  It could prove to be a very fine line while the new leaders are testing their reach.
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Offline cptd

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I guess another thing to keep in mind is that I'm not planning to stay here regardless of a SHTF scenario, as living on the boat and cruising the world is also my retirement plan. That's what my dad did in his retirement, and I had a great childhood learning lot only about the sea but about the world through my own eyes.

I read a book about Antarctica when I was a 12 and asked my dad if we could go there for my 13th birthday and he said "sure." And we did it. That's something I want to be able to do for my own kids.

I don't have much extended family. I'm an only child and my only living uncle is a jerk. My best friend and his family are part of my crew, and I've got a room for a few more people.

So for me it's not a big leap. I'd just be speeding up my plans and setting sail sooner rather than later.

I wouldn't feel terribly bad about not coming back to the States on a permanent, live-in basis because to be totally honest, life here has been a bit of a disappointment. Growing up on the boat, I probably spent a total of two or three weeks on US soil every year. So what I learned about the United States was mostly not firsthand through experience. I learned our history through books, and our culture by oral history.

Then I went to college, and they were the worst four years of my life. I didn't even live on campus, and still found that life in the states didn't much resemble what my dad talked about from his childhood. The values he spoke of were gone and in there place there was nothing of any real value.

I enrolled in ROTC as a way of finding something of a pocket of "traditional" or "old" america, where people at least talked about things like duty and honor and loyalty. When I graduated college and went out into the larger army, I was again disappointed, over and over again. Years of fighting, loss of friends, loss of my own beloved body and mind, and for what?

I am a US citizen and thus so are my children, but that does not obligate me to bleed for this place any more, or to forfeit their lives, their futures, or their well-being.

As near as I can tell, the America that my dad taught me about is already gone. Maybe it comes back, but probably not in my lifetime, and probably not in theirs, either. Even if the S doesn't hit the F, if we just continue this long, slow, inexorable
march toward socialism - either way, if bullets fly or we just skid along the way Europe does (more likely, I think), bumping
the bottom, bouncing off of it for a little while, then bumping it again. Neither is palatable to me when there is another viable option available.

Offline sdcharger

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It is easy to postulate about what you would or would not do if you have never done it before.

Offline cptd

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One more thought, and it might be a subject for a different thread, but suppose the crisis the crisis that many are predicting is not a sudden drop but a long, slow, decline? Suppose that instead of battalions of people marching around in open defiance of the constitution, suppose instead that we just continue what we've been doing.

It's my view that it is far more likely, in any event, that through the lawful election of corrupt leaders (on both sides of the aisle) America will continue to basically ask nicely to have personal freedoms stripped away. America keeps peeing its money and its soldiers away on foreign wars. America keeps taxing, taking, and redistributing - a little more here, a little more there. Suppose it doesn't happen all at once (I suspect it won't).

Suppose it is all kosher, everything happens according to the law of the land, the actions of Congress, the President, the Courts?

At what point do you cut your losses? Suppose they take 40% of your money in taxes. What if they raise it to 50%. Then 80%.

What about if they institute a federal property tax, and then take your land when you can't pay it, so they can use the money for whatever BS they want to use it for?

Since there has been no total breakdown in society - since the laws were enacted legally - if you fight them violently when they show up to take their cut, you will be taken in as a terrorist and a criminal.

If you refuse to pay, you risk losing everything you own and jailtime to boot.

Or do you pay it, month after month, year after year, no matter how obscene it becomes, privately furious and privately stewing and angry about the whole situation? Suppose you wake up in the morning and suddenly realise that you simply aren't happy and there is no end in sight? Then what?

At what point do you look around and realize that the socialists have basically won, not through force of arms, but by taking over EDUCATION, THE MEDIA, and the ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY.

They already control these institutions pretty tightly and they're not going to let go of them. They can basically say whatever they want to say, regardless of its veracity, and are educating (indoctrinating) America's youth as we speak.

So suppose it just pans out as a slow squeeze instead of a sudden crisis, where the people who have stuff are slowly forced, through the rule of law, to share what they have with the dregs of society.

I'd argue that the train has already left the station and it's going to take a lot to stop it. Maybe at this point it can't be stopped. For me, the threshold has pretty much already been crossed. I don't think the train is going to stop and go back to the station. I think it's going to keep rolling down the tracks. The line for me, as far as defining how much of my stuff I am OK wish sharing, has already been crossed, and unless there was some kind of monumental reform made in the way they ta and spend (and it would have to be earth-shattering), I don't see America as being that far ahead, in actuality, of a lot of other places in the world that I have visited, and I only see it contracting in the future as a result of its chosen leaders and chosen policies.

So maybe you haven't reaching your threshold yet. That's ok. But don't criticize me for bailing just because of where I've set the bar, especially if you haven't yet settled on what you own threshold for freedom looks like.

Offline Oil Lady

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It is easy to postulate about what you would or would not do if you have never done it before.

True.

But engaging in a sheerly mental exercise is better than never having thought about it before ever at all.

While i'm sure we will never truly see this scenario arise (at least I hope not) perhaps there are small conceptual pieces of this conceptual thread which migh have reallife bearing in the reallife future of just one person here at TSP.
 
And perhaps enough batting around of ideas in a thread like this can dispell a lot of erroneous preconceptions people might have --people such as myself***-- about how sh-t really goes down in freaky weird military situations in real life and not in a Hollywood movie.
 


*** I am female, a suburbanite, never served in the military, never fired a gun, never seen TRUE adversity not even a 1960's riot. All I have is what I read and what I see on TV and internet, and that's a mixture of fiction and non-fiction, not all of which is accuarate, although I am not educated enough to discern what's true and what's bull.
"This is the first scenario I've seen where I question the survivability of mankind." -- self-made billionaire Richard Rainwater in his business analysis of Peak Oil, "The Rainwater Prophecy," Fortune magazine, Dec 26, 2005

"This is an emergency far worse than World War I and World War II put together." -- CEO of Virgin Airlines, Sir Richard Branson on Peak Oil in CNN's investigative report "We Were Warned: Out of Gas" June 2007/May 2008 03:05

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"... it doesn’t really matter who is removing your civil liberties, whether it is being done by a democratic government, a kleptocracy, a dictatorship or even the green police. When your civil rights are gone, they’re gone, and you really are in trouble, no matter how good the cause." --UK journalist Anthony Harrington, "Peak Oil and Collapse Scenarios," QFinance, September, 2011

Our parents used to say, "Don't worry, the government will take care of it."
And now our kids say, "Don't worry, the government will take care of us."

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Offline DrJohn

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One more thought, and it might be a subject for a different thread, but suppose the crisis the crisis that many are predicting is not a sudden drop but a long, slow, decline? Suppose that instead of battalions of people marching around in open defiance of the constitution, suppose instead that we just continue what we've been doing...

So maybe you haven't reaching your threshold yet. That's ok. But don't criticize me for bailing just because of where I've set the bar, especially if you haven't yet settled on what you own threshold for freedom looks like.

So where you going?  I got here by my ancestors seeing the writing on the wall and they left Europe, but there is no other Shinning City on the hill, to retreat to this time, so like I asked, where do you go?
"In the end, more than freedom, they wanted security.
They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all - security,
comfort, and freedom. When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for most was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free and was never free again."
- Edward Gibbon

Offline chrisdfw

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I think it would be pretty hard to protect ones family in the event of a failure of rule of law in most parts of the US. I can tell you the rule of law barely keeps control in many parts of many cities in the US.

Its pretty hard to hide, and I don't have the resources to run. The population is too dense to live off the land, the herds of buffalo roaming the plains are gone and the nomadic lifestyle with them. (sad)

We will need to be a part of some sort of society, and in my mind that will ultimately involve choosing sides, maybe not with a rifle, maybe just with a checkbook, or material support.

I don't know if it will come to it, there will be hard times, but I like to think that economic reality will destroy the notion that we can rob everyone of freedom and still be productive. Freedom and economic prosperity are linked, and those who choose to ignore it in the short term (Obama voters) will ultimately face it in the long term (with the rest of us). But even an idiot will be able to see that people work when they reap the rewards, and freedom is the correct path. How much pain is the only question.

I believe Winston Churchill said you can always count on America to do the right thing, after exhausting all other possibilities.

I hope we don't have a fight, but rather a peaceful reckoning with the natural laws of human nature and mathematics.

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I've observed several "collapses" from a distance as most here have, and I've lived in a post "collapse" nation for a couple years not long after the fact and got to talk to a lot of people that went through not just that collapse but the one before it and in the older population's case, the one before that. The common thread is that there is that each collapse creates some sort of void, and the void gets filled quickly and there are winners and losers. Some rendition of a military coup wouldn't shock me in the least. The US has screwed a whole lot up, but there absolutely won't be an arms vacuum (either public or private), and the vast majority of the military still believes in the constitution. I doubt there would ever be a forceful take over, but say one day the currency really does implode, the government miscalculates its response, and essentially dissolves in the fallout. I'd be shocked if the military wasn't the first to step in to claim interim authority, and private arms would likely own local security. That would be about the worse case IMO.

Offline ttubravesrock

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I suggest for anyone interested in this topic to read A Canticle For Leibowitz by Walter Miller Jr.

It touches on almost every subject mentioned here in this thread.

Total Collapse - Check
Self Government - Check
Multiple Governments - Check
Greater Good vs. Self - Check
Theocracy - Check
Food & Water - Check
Wars - Check

The entire book is really like three books spanning a couple millennium.  It doesn't start until several hundred years after the total collapse though.



However, assuming the collapse is something along the lines of either Jericho, Jeremiah, or Walking Dead, my loyalties would be concentric around my family.  Family first, then neighbors and friends, then the community. USA is pretty far down that list.

Honestly, with the combination of my location (Alaska) and the federal debt, I have done some thinking about what my life would be like in the same location but under a different federal government. I really don't think it would be any different than it is now. I would have access to the same things I have access to right now.

In my opinion, the United States has already collapsed... it just hasn't died yet.  As someone has mentioned previously in this thread, you can support the Constitution without supporting the government. Just make sure you have a copy of it in case you need to use it one day. 

Offline endurance

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I suggest for anyone interested in this topic to read A Canticle For Leibowitz by Walter Miller Jr.

It touches on almost every subject mentioned here in this thread.

Total Collapse - Check
Self Government - Check
Multiple Governments - Check
Greater Good vs. Self - Check
Theocracy - Check
Food & Water - Check
Wars - Check

The entire book is really like three books spanning a couple millennium.  It doesn't start until several hundred years after the total collapse though.



However, assuming the collapse is something along the lines of either Jericho, Jeremiah, or Walking Dead, my loyalties would be concentric around my family.  Family first, then neighbors and friends, then the community. USA is pretty far down that list.

Honestly, with the combination of my location (Alaska) and the federal debt, I have done some thinking about what my life would be like in the same location but under a different federal government. I really don't think it would be any different than it is now. I would have access to the same things I have access to right now.

In my opinion, the United States has already collapsed... it just hasn't died yet.  As someone has mentioned previously in this thread, you can support the Constitution without supporting the government. Just make sure you have a copy of it in case you need to use it one day.
Cool, it's even available on Audible.  On my wishlist - Check 
Thanks!
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Offline cptd

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I guess what it comes down to is your faith in whether things will restructure in a way that makes riding out the storm worth while. THat's a personal leap of faith, one that some might make but I'm not willing to go there.

Personally I think it's unlikely that order will ever decay to the degree we're talking about, or that the government as we know it will fall apart. I've posted a lot of hypotheticals mostly as an exercise in creative thinking. What I think will happen is the slow, steady errosion of freedom through the power the goverment already has. It will continue to wrap its tentacles around you and squeeze no matter how hard you try to be independent.

I don't think, for example, that a guy like Obama would let people starve in the cities if there was food out in the country. Those are the people who put him in power. He's already written the country people off and could care less whether they approve of him or not. Probably what you would see if people were really having trouble eating would be the use of the Posse Committatus Act (also known as Operation Garden Plot).  The Army would set up field kitchens in the city to feed people, and if they ran out of food to cook, they would go out to the country where people were growing it, or fishing for it, or whatever, and requisition it. This is already legal and can be done by executive order without Congressional approval. In a nutshell, what the law says is that in a civil emergency the president can order the army to take what it needs to pursue its mission from citizens, as long as they issue a handreceipt promising future payment from the government as compensation.

It's one thing to fight off a gang or something, but what do you do when the army shows up, acting under lawful orders, and asks for your stuff? Do you really want to start something with the 82nd Airborne Division? Now on top of insane tax burdens you're busting your butt in your garden, turning over all of your spinach and sweet potatoes, and collecting a drawer filled with worthless hand receipts, probably promising a fraction of the fair price of what was taken. Maybe they offer you the privilege of eating in the soup kitchen they set up to cook your food, too.

Again, maybe another thread - but this place has already given so much power to the federal government, its scary.

Offline nelson96

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Probably what you would see if people were really having trouble eating would be the use of the Posse Committatus Act (also known as Operation Garden Plot). The Army would set up field kitchens in the city to feed people, and if they ran out of food to cook, they would go out to the country where people were growing it, or fishing for it, or whatever, and requisition it. This is already legal and can be done by executive order without Congressional approval. In a nutshell, what the law says is that in a civil emergency the president can order the army to take what it needs to pursue its mission from citizens, as long as they issue a handreceipt promising future payment from the government as compensation.

Because I had never heard of it, I read up a little on this Posse Comitatus Act - Operation Garden Plot.  It is very old with some recent updates.  It's also full of a lot of mumbo jumbo . . . .  But I don't read in to at all what you suggest it will provide above.  It mentions nothing, that I can find, concerning your specific points. 

Can you help me find what I may have missed?

To sum up what I understand of the Posse Comitatus Act:
The President is authorized by the Constitution and Title 10 (10 USC 331-334) to suppress insurrections, rebellions, and domestic violence. After issuing a Cease and Desist Order, the President issues an executive order that directs the Attorney General and the SECDEF to take appropriate steps to disperse insurgents and restore law and order. The Attorney General is then responsible to coordinate the federal response to domestic civil disturbances. The restrictions of the Posse Comitatus Act no longer apply to federal troops executing the orders of the President to quell the disturbance in accordance with Rules of the Use of Force (RUF) approved by the DoD General Counsel and the Attorney General.

To sum up what I understand of Operation Garden Plot:
Garden Plot is the DoD Civil Disturbance Plan, the generic Operations Plan [OPLAN] for military support related to domestic civil disturbances. The department of the Army Civil Disturbance Plan (DA GARDEN PLOT), is the governing publication for planning, deployment, employment, and redeployment of federal military resources involved in countering domestic civil disturbances. Military assistance to Federal, State, and local government (including government of U.S. territories) and their law enforcement agencies for civil disturbances and civil disturbance operations, including response to terrorist incidents, are referred to cumulatively as "Military Assistance for Civil Disturbances (MACDIS)."
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One hundred thousand generations of people lived and ate as hunter-gatherers, and only two generations have grown up on highly processed fast foods. . .  It's not too late

Offline cptd

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Because I had never heard of it, I read up a little on this Posse Comitatus Act - Operation Garden Plot.  It is very old with some recent updates.  It's also full of a lot of mumbo jumbo . . . .  But I don't read in to at all what you suggest it will provide above.  It mentions nothing, that I can find, concerning your specific points. 

Can you help me find what I may have missed?

To sum up what I understand of the Posse Comitatus Act:
The President is authorized by the Constitution and Title 10 (10 USC 331-334) to suppress insurrections, rebellions, and domestic violence. After issuing a Cease and Desist Order, the President issues an executive order that directs the Attorney General and the SECDEF to take appropriate steps to disperse insurgents and restore law and order. The Attorney General is then responsible to coordinate the federal response to domestic civil disturbances. The restrictions of the Posse Comitatus Act no longer apply to federal troops executing the orders of the President to quell the disturbance in accordance with Rules of the Use of Force (RUF) approved by the DoD General Counsel and the Attorney General.

To sum up what I understand of Operation Garden Plot:
Garden Plot is the DoD Civil Disturbance Plan, the generic Operations Plan [OPLAN] for military support related to domestic civil disturbances. The department of the Army Civil Disturbance Plan (DA GARDEN PLOT), is the governing publication for planning, deployment, employment, and redeployment of federal military resources involved in countering domestic civil disturbances. Military assistance to Federal, State, and local government (including government of U.S. territories) and their law enforcement agencies for civil disturbances and civil disturbance operations, including response to terrorist incidents, are referred to cumulatively as "Military Assistance for Civil Disturbances (MACDIS)."

Operation Garden Plot gives the president authority to deploy the army stateside. This can be done and has been done in recent history; I was part of a Garden Plot operation that was planned in 2000 as a contingency in case there was significant civil disturbance at Bush's inauguration (if you remember, there was some fuss and bother over whether Gore or Bush won). It was kept quiet. Command elements of my Brigade stayed in a hotel in Washington and quietly made plans to surround various buildings. We picked out where we would set up our command post and all of that kind of thing. If things got ugly, the plan was for 1st Battalion would load up on Chinnook helicopters and fly to Washington, landing at pre-designated locations and taking control of the situation. It never happened because the  people who were threatening violence never showed up (which was smart of them, as they'd have had their butts handed to them on a platter).

As far as seizing your property goes, you have to turn a bit further back in history, but our government has a robust history of doing this. As far as I can tell, the most recent example is the civil war, which was, admittedly, a long time ago; but as far as my research indicates, nothing was ever done, in terms of legislation, to tie the army's hands and prevent it doing so again; there simply hasn't been an instance of the Army operating at home and running out of its own supplies of food. So there has been no need to go down that path - but that doesn't mean it can't, or that it won't.

The Confederate army did this too, only people in the south sort of screwed themselves because they demanded cash instead of IOU's. The Confederates said fine, and paid for their stuff in cash - Confederate dollars, which, after the war, didn't even make very good toilet paper.  In a sort of comical incidence of this, Lee's quartermasters - when they marched into Pennsylvania - followed policy, and, when taking food from Northern farmers, paid them with Confederate dollars. I would have liked to see the WTF look on those farmers' faces when handed a bunch of monopoly money to pay for the fruits of their labor.

It is just my opinion, and as such could be wrong (as could yours or anyone else's on this forum) that there is both legal and historic precedent for the situation I described, and if things got really bad in the cities it's not a stretch at all for me to see the people we've elected as our leaders using military force to maintain order, and doing whatever it takes to make sure that that happens. And if that means taking your stuff, they'll take your stuff.

The larger point I was trying to make is that I don't think it's smart to ignore or to underestimate the capabilities of a government that is desperate to maintain its grip on a decaying society.

inbox485

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Because I had never heard of it, I read up a little on this Posse Comitatus Act - Operation Garden Plot.  It is very old with some recent updates.  It's also full of a lot of mumbo jumbo . . . .  But I don't read in to at all what you suggest it will provide above.  It mentions nothing, that I can find, concerning your specific points. 

Can you help me find what I may have missed?

To sum up what I understand of the Posse Comitatus Act:
The President is authorized by the Constitution and Title 10 (10 USC 331-334) to suppress insurrections, rebellions, and domestic violence. After issuing a Cease and Desist Order, the President issues an executive order that directs the Attorney General and the SECDEF to take appropriate steps to disperse insurgents and restore law and order. The Attorney General is then responsible to coordinate the federal response to domestic civil disturbances. The restrictions of the Posse Comitatus Act no longer apply to federal troops executing the orders of the President to quell the disturbance in accordance with Rules of the Use of Force (RUF) approved by the DoD General Counsel and the Attorney General.

To sum up what I understand of Operation Garden Plot:
Garden Plot is the DoD Civil Disturbance Plan, the generic Operations Plan [OPLAN] for military support related to domestic civil disturbances. The department of the Army Civil Disturbance Plan (DA GARDEN PLOT), is the governing publication for planning, deployment, employment, and redeployment of federal military resources involved in countering domestic civil disturbances. Military assistance to Federal, State, and local government (including government of U.S. territories) and their law enforcement agencies for civil disturbances and civil disturbance operations, including response to terrorist incidents, are referred to cumulatively as "Military Assistance for Civil Disturbances (MACDIS)."


I don't have time to pull the quote, but I think the above was actually referenced from NDAA powers. Essentially, NDAA says that if the president claims national emergency, he can also claim what essentially amount to dictatorship powers.

Offline Shaunypoo

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If the S has REALLY HTF, then I dont really care what flag people are waiving...I wont be taking a side...
 Im going to be with my family living sustainably without the need for a government....I mean if you've got all your survival needs met and you're thriving, why the heck would I want to risk aligning myself with any government entity? they can fight it out, i'll stay out of it and eat bacon.

This is an admirable attitude, and probably taken by more than a few on the forum, but what if there is no choice.  Option 3 was a baddie telling you my way or the highway.  You get government whether you like it or not.  Most of us here think we could live fine without a government if everyone honored their obligations like we believe we do, but the reality is that not only is there a government now, if something happens and the government dissolves, there will be something to fill the void.  Maybe it will be something that we agree with and maybe not. 

If it is a government that endorses the lifestyle I agree with and I think it is better than what we have, then I would be more inclined to endorse it.  If I think it is worse than what we have, then depending on how oppresive it is, I may or may not openly oppose it, but would oppose it nonetheless.  And if someone forces it upon me, I will join the rebel alliance.
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Offline livinitup0

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This is an admirable attitude, and probably taken by more than a few on the forum, but what if there is no choice.  Option 3 was a baddie telling you my way or the highway.  You get government whether you like it or not.  Most of us here think we could live fine without a government if everyone honored their obligations like we believe we do, but the reality is that not only is there a government now, if something happens and the government dissolves, there will be something to fill the void.  Maybe it will be something that we agree with and maybe not. 

If it is a government that endorses the lifestyle I agree with and I think it is better than what we have, then I would be more inclined to endorse it.  If I think it is worse than what we have, then depending on how oppresive it is, I may or may not openly oppose it, but would oppose it nonetheless.  And if someone forces it upon me, I will join the rebel alliance.

maybe its just me but Im not especially worried about the new world order going door to door wanting to know if we're with or against them.

Maybe its selfish, but if the S REALLY hits the fan, Im not really concerned about the big picture, i'll be much more worried about myself, my family, my friends and my immediate community.

that being said... I highly doubt anything even remotely close to this scenario will ever happen to begin with. 

Offline Shaunypoo

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  • "He is a platypus, they don't do much." - Phineas
maybe its just me but Im not especially worried about the new world order going door to door wanting to know if we're with or against them.

Maybe its selfish, but if the S REALLY hits the fan, Im not really concerned about the big picture, i'll be much more worried about myself, my family, my friends and my immediate community.

that being said... I highly doubt anything even remotely close to this scenario will ever happen to begin with.

I understand that, I am not worried about it a whole lot either, it is just a mental exercise.
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”  Robert Heinlein

"There's this new thing called Situational Awareness!"  Sterling Archer