Getting started with rabbits?

[Cedar]

Tangent alert -- All this talk about rabbit hutches has me wondering why this seems to be the accepted way to keep rabbits.  Most of us would probably prefer to give as much range as possible  to our chicken, pigs, cows, etc...so why is the rabbit stuck in the lowly hutch with no access to sunshine, its own choice of food, etc? 

Not being critical....just wondering about the logic.  Is it because they dig?  Too easy a target for predators?  To hard to catch?

For many reasons. Even though wild rabbits can live in warrens, they can beat the crud out of eac other. I have seen bucks lose their " livelihood" to leaving them with a die, I have seen torn ears and blindness results.

Management issues, yes the dig. Yes they can escape, yes to predator issues.

Record keeping. When did they get bred and by whom? When are they due. Without good record keeping you have nothing.

My rabbits have always been from show stock lines and often worth $80-200, some of my friends rabbits sell for $300 or more. I don't want to risk them.

That said, I may trial a line of American chinchillas or Americans for a project I have in mind and may "sacrifice" them to free range type system  for a feeding trial for sbout fiurgenerations , and know I am taking a chance with them not surviving due to various issues of weather, fighting, predators or escape.

[john gillis]

There's also parasites and diseases in the vegetation that will kill rabbits, plus the transfer of coccidious from rabbit to rabbit.

[ID_Joker]

Ok....for show rabbits I can totally see it.  To me that's not different than other animals we show.  People keep birds differently to maintain feathers.  Dogs bred for show often have different characteristics (esp coat) than those for work, etc.

I'm thinking meat production here.  And mostly thinking about it because I think I want to give rabbits a try.  And I will likely use hutches.  It just seems a little weird.

If digging is the problem, could you just bury the fence around the run to keep them from getting out?  For predators, I would think it's no different than fencing in chickens -- predator-proof fencing and a net over the top if needed.  Lots of animals can transmit disease on pasture, especially if not managed properly (rotation, etc).

So the biggest issue I can see is their seeming lack of social skills.  Obviously you don't want them tearing each other apart.  Is this just a matter of giving them enough space?  If so, how much space is that?  Is it so big that it is unrealistic to make a pen that large?  Is the problem mostly between bucks or is it between females as well?

What about developing a semi-Salatin-style pen that combined some shelter with the ability to move them around pasture?  Even if you had to have their runs separated within the pen, it would still provide them with natural diet and also distribute the manure without extra work.

[john gillis]

If you want to raise rabbits your way then its your time ,money and land,just do it then let us know your results. Some of us gave reasons why we don't but that's not to say the world is flat. Please let us know your results. Thanks.

[Cedar]

For many reasons. Even though wild rabbits can live in warrens, they can beat the crud out of eac other. I have seen bucks lose their " livelihood" to leaving them with a die, I have seen torn ears and blindness results.

Management issues, yes the dig. Yes they can escape, yes to predator issues.

Record keeping. When did they get bred and by whom? When are they due. Without good record keeping you have nothing.

My rabbits have always been from show stock lines and often worth $80-200, some of my friends rabbits sell for $300 or more. I don't want to risk them.

That said, I may trial a line of American chinchillas or Americans for a project I have in mind and may "sacrifice" them to free range type system  for a feeding trial for sbout fiurgenerations , and know I am taking a chance with them not surviving due to various issues of weather, fighting, predators or escape.

Yikes, I replied from my phone... gotta love auto correct....

For many reasons. Even though wild rabbits can live in warrens, they can beat the crud out of eac other. I have seen bucks lose their " livelihood" to leaving them with a doe, I have seen torn ears and blindness results.

Management issues, yes they dig. Yes they can escape, yes to predator issues.

Record keeping. When did they get bred and by whom? When are they due. Without good record keeping you have nothing.

My rabbits have always been from show stock lines and often worth $80-200, some of my friends rabbits sell for $300 or more. I don't want to risk them.

That said, I may trial a line of American chinchillas or Americans for a project I have in mind and may "sacrifice" them to free range type system for a feeding trial for about four or five generations , and know I am taking a chance with them not surviving due to various issues of weather, fighting, predators or escaping.

Cedar

[Cedar]

Ok....for show rabbits I can totally see it. ... I'm thinking meat production here.  And mostly thinking about it because I think I want to give rabbits a try.  And I will likely use hutches.  It just seems a little weird.

Don't get me wrong, my rabbit herd is a working herd and not just for their pretty looks. They are bred for their original purpose, which is meat (and fur as a byproduct). I showed rabbits from 1977 to 2001. From 2001- present, I have not shown, the vast majority of them go into the freezer and my dinner table. I do not sell any culls which I would not keep and use in my own breeding herd. The lines of Americans and American Chinchillas I have are from very good lines and I wish to preserve those lines as they are some of the most rare rabbits in the United States. One day I might show again, but even if I don't, those which I sell live are nothing less than show quality and good breeding stock.

If digging is the problem, could you just bury the fence around the run to keep them from getting out? 

Sure, but how do you move your fencing to make a 'rabbit tractor'? What happens then the grass is ate up and it all turns to mud?

Lots of animals can transmit disease on pasture, especially if not managed properly (rotation, etc).

For example Coccidia is a good killer of young rabbits. It is a single celled protozoan parasite. The cysts are resistant to the effects of sunlight, desiccation, freezing and numerous disinfectants and they can persist in the environment for a very long period of time (many months to years), long after the visible feces themselves have broken down and disappeared. Consequently, wherever there has been coccidia-contaminated feces in the past (indoors or outdoors), there are potentially infectious coccidia organisms still remaining in the environment. Rabbits that recover frequently become carriers. Sure you can treat the animals with Sulfaquinoxaline which is administered continuously in the drinking water (0.04% for 30 days). Ammonia (10%) solution is lethal to oocysts, but bleach is not, either would be bad for your ground/soil. A withdrawal period has not been established for Sulfaquinoxaline in rabbits. So I prefer not to take a chance with it, and use prevention instead.

So the biggest issue I can see is their seeming lack of social skills.  Obviously you don't want them tearing each other apart.  Is this just a matter of giving them enough space?  If so, how much space is that?  Is it so big that it is unrealistic to make a pen that large?  Is the problem mostly between bucks or is it between females as well?

Some people are using 12x12' for does and litters, some use 20x20', some use 8'x8' for bucks.  However, if they get along in there.. and you bring in a new animal, or switch them around... they tend to fight and it breaks whatever peace you had in the colonies. Every single person I know who did colony rearing quit within a year. Took more time, more space, more beat up rabbits, more dead kits..

If you put a buck into a does space, she will tend to beat the snot out of him. Which is why you take the doe to the bucks cage. Can't leave the buck in with the doe (or vice versa) all the time either, as she will likely get rebred too soon. Does might get bred too early etc.

But give it a try and like John said, if you give it a try report back to us.

Cedar

[AguangaPrepper]

I just joined the forum today.  We are raising rabbits for meat and pelts.  Started with rabbits (commercial whites) about 20 years ago and had them in a rabbit barn with swamp cooler for summer.  Then we stopped for several years.  Just started up with rabbits again a couple years ago with outdoor cages and mister system instead.  Much better and easier this way.  We raise a some NZWs but mostly Standard Rex which we prefer.  Had only a few at the beginning with sore hocks and with quick selection eliminated the problem, have very good fryer size and large litters that tolerate or summers well.  Their temperament is wonderful compared to the NZWs, Californians, and Commercial Whites that we've had.  Docile and friendly and calmer.  Rare to get scratched up when handling.  Do take a couple extra weeks to make weight, but they need to be around 12 weeks for pelt quality anyway. 

I think it's already been said but good genetics and strict selection and culling to improve the bloodline gets you far with the rabbit very fast due to their quick maturity and reproduction. 

We feed organic pellets and forage a lot for the rabbits (grass, broadleaf plants, mulberry branches).  Give them cans and rattles, etc to play with and plywood pieces to rest on and chew on as they need to wear down their teeth.

This time around with the rabbits the water is automatic and the misters are auto/thermostat controlled which is such a time saver.  Outdoor hanging cages are much easier to clean under and more air flow keeps them much healthier for us too.

When we first got the Rex rabbits, I had the idea of letting them live on the lawn and move the fencing around (x-pens) like a rabbit tractor.  They quickly became expert diggers and made huge warrens...10' + under ground maze in all directions.  We have to reclaim our lawn using our tractor to cave in all the burrows.  It was a failed experiment..cute when the rabbits were young and didn't really know how to dig that well, but afterwards it destroyed the lawn.  Never again...now I bring the grass to them in their hanging cages.

There are been a huge interest in raising rabbits in our area and we've held two rabbit raising and butchering workshop for local preppers and back to basic groups already and was pleasantly surprised by the turnout.   20 years ago when we raised rabbits the first time, most people were very negative about raising rabbits for food (for us and our dogs).  Now most people have a positive response.

** I tried several times to figure out how to put images of our rabbit set up..but, failed.

[ID_Joker]

Cedar, Aguanga, and John -- Thanks very much for humoring me.  I am really interested in doing rabbits in the next couple years and don't want to reinvent the wheel.  However, I also don't want to be a slave to convention.  I appreciate you all taking the time to give me solid answers to these questions.  I just want to use a system that is easy from a management perspective and also best suited to the intrinsic needs of the rabbits.  Sounds like the hutches are defintely the way to go, especially starting out!

[AguangaPrepper]

Watched the tutorial on posting pixs..here goes with some of our current rabbitry.










One of the workshops on raising and butchering rabbits.

[jlknauff]

Maybe a dumb question, but when I put the doe into the buck's cage, shouldn't they just do their business right away? Mine seem confused. I'm not sure their exact age, but they are close to 4 months old.

[Cedar]

Maybe a dumb question, but when I put the doe into the buck's cage, shouldn't they just do their business right away? Mine seem confused. I'm not sure their exact age, but they are close to 4 months old.

Too young.

Cedar

[jlknauff]

How old do they need to be?

[Cedar]

How old do they need to be?

I don't breed commercial breeds before 6-7 months. I try to hold off until 7. With my larger breeds I hold off until 7-9 months.

Cedar

[AguangaPrepper]

I agree.  We breed the Standard Rex and NZWs at 7-8 months.   If done before that you can have poor success...even when the very young doe has babies...a lot of loss or all dead babies as she is too young mentally. 

The old commercial system of breeding back the does right after kindling has been proven inefficient as well as it wears them out so fast and you have to keep back so many extra does to feed up to 6+ months old for breeding.  The doe would be ready to kindle right when you were pulling her litter out, which really wore out the does fast. 

We breed back the does when litter is 6 weeks old.  We replace our does between 3-4 years of age.

[Cedar]

We breed back the does when litter is 6 weeks old.  We replace our does between 3-4 years of age.

And I rebreed the day I cull the litter which is at 56 days of age. I only do 5 litters per year per doe. Keep does around 2 years and maybe 3.

Cedar

[john gillis]

My new Zealand Whites are bred at 5 1/2 months and min. of 8 pounds for does, 6 1/2 months and 8 pounds min. for bucks, due to the fact a lot of them are still being shown some are older. I try to have them bred before 15 months of age. Depends on customer demand and condition of doe , but breed back from 21 to 42 days, I replace doe when better stock is growing usually 3 to 4 years, have some after 5 years still have 8 to 11 top notch kits.

[scaffdog]

Any experiences with using sprouted grains and/or legumes for fodder?

[john gillis]

I don't. For me it's a waste of time and trouble. My rabbits and there litters didn't do as well.

[Joe in TN]

Any experiences with using sprouted grains and/or legumes for fodder?

I sprout Black Oil Sunflower Seeds for my rabbits.  I only feed the kits a small portion because I want them eating higher protein pellets to grow out fast.  The adult rabbits love it and it adds different nutrients, minerals and vitamins to their diet. 

Joe

[john gillis]

Feeding supplements to make a rabbit grow is only going to add fat to the meat. The ability to grow is in the genetics of the rabbit, any standard rabbit pellets will do the job. Usually unless a person understands the make up of the supplement or added food then there is more harm than good.

[scaffdog]

Feeding supplements to make a rabbit grow is only going to add fat to the meat. The ability to grow is in the genetics of the rabbit, any standard rabbit pellets will do the job. Usually unless a person understands the make up of the supplement or added food then there is more harm than good.

Well, we started domesticating rabbits before there were commercial rabbit pellets, so what would be a good natural feed for the rabbits?  I was told that sprouted grains were a great option, but since you disagree, any alternative options?

[AguangaPrepper]

We have been foraging for our 50 or so rabbits as much as possible for the last 2 years.  We have noticed a savings of approximately 1/2 on pellet consumption and haven't noticed a loss in weight gain or condition.  I don't know all the plants that I pull up but include - native grasses, mustard, milk thistle, malva, fillaree, knotweed, wild oats, rye, bermuda grass, grains that grow along roads by fields (not in the fields), mulberry leaves and small branches (they love them), pear and apple fruit,  leaves and small branches, roses, grape leaves and branches.  Stuff from the garden when it's bolted or I'm thinning - cabbage, various salad greens, broccoli, radish and beet greens. Veggies and fruits that are "on their way out" from the frig too.

I don't know about sprouting but have wanted to sprout quinoa and other seeds for myself, but just haven't done it yet.  Also read some on the tray system of growing barley grasses and plan to attend a workshop on this to see how much labor, costs, etc are involve to produce feed. 

Overall I love the idea of foraging for their food as it's just labor and no costs to grow.

[scaffdog]

Thanks for the info!

[Cedar]

Well, we started domesticating rabbits before there were commercial rabbit pellets, so what would be a good natural feed for the rabbits?  I was told that sprouted grains were a great option, but since you disagree, any alternative options?

It is true. Rabbits were first domesticated over 2,000 years ago, starting with the Greeks. No one had commercial rabbit pellets then. However, there is NO ONE good 'natural food ' that you can raise for your rabbits either. And you will not instantly be able to find one either.

Let me tell you a little story...

My friend who is an ARBA register & judge went to the Netherlands and found a man who raised beautiful Dutch rabbits (the ARBA recognized breed Dutch, not just any rabbit that was in the Netherlands). He bought 6 or 10 of them and brought them back to the USA. These rabbits were awesome awesome awesome... and had been awesome for generations... until he brought them to the USA. In 6-10 weeks they looked like the worst culls ever. What happened?

Well, these Dutch rabbits from the Netherlands were pretty much landraced onto their diet of beet pulp there. All they ate was ground up beet pulp soaked in water. That is all these rabbits had for food or water. JUST THAT. When my friend brought them back to the USA, he put them onto commercial pellets that the other 500 of his rabbits were on. AND THEY LOOKED LIKE HADES!! What is 'landraced'? A landrace is a local variety of a domesticated animal or plant species which has developed largely by natural processes, by adaptation to the natural and cultural environment in which it lives. In this case, it was bred to eat what was available, which is the beet pulp soaked in water. If animals thrived on it, they were not culled out and they were bred to produce more which did excellent on the beet pulp soaked in water. Those who did not do well on the beet pulp soaked in water went into the stewpot and were not bred.

You see this in many breeds of livestock actually, such as the Scottish Highland cattle can eat very poor scrub lands and thrive and produce flesh, calves, milk, meat and are also used as draft animals. The same with 'hill sheep', Kerry and Dexter milk cows, etc. The land's climate and the feedstuffs are what helps create the breed.

So what does this have to do with your rabbits? Pick a feedstuff for them that you want to feed them and start breeding them to thrive and produce on it. You WILL NOT be able to do this in one or two generations, and I figure it will be closer to 3-6. You will have to keep careful records and cull heavily to get this to happen sooner than later.... if at all.

If you want to feed them orchard grass, feed them orchard grass. If you want to feed them whatever you cut out of your yard and surrounding fields, feed them that.. BUT you are breeding towards a goal of getting them to eat whatever you are supplying them, so you will have to stick with that... or when you switch feedstuffs, you are not going to like what your rabbits are looking like nor their weights. Just like the other rabbits from Holland looking poorly from having been beautiful animals.

It happens even when you switch commercial feeds from one brand to another, from one area to another. The ration formula is different between feeds and mills.... and if your animals have been on it for generations.. they are no longer being fed what they have been bred (intentionally or not) to thrive on.

Cedar

[Cedar]

Oh.. and I feed nothing but a commercial 18% protein feed which is milled locally from locally sourced ingredients. I don't feed hay, I don't use salt licks, I don't use sunflower seeds.. nada.. nothing. They get carrots for Christmas and Easter.

Cedar

[AguangaPrepper]

Our sheep when switched back to pasture during the season from hay feeding always gain weight and look better.  But the hay is dried grasses and it's similar to fresh only not as tasty or nutritious. 

Our rabbits seem to do better in the Spring, Summer and Fall when we can forage for them than in the winter..I don't know how to explain it but they seem more lively and "happy" and thrive when we are giving them fresh food along with the organic pellets.  Or maybe they just get the winter blues..

When we put the greens in even though they have pellets in front of them all the time, they immediately go for the fresh food.  It is more labor intensive and more inimate interaction with the rabbits than putting pellets in a feeder from the outside.  I know clients that have bought rabbits from us that want to keep their distance with their meat animals because of the emotional attachement.  I want to treat them as good as possible and feed them as good as possible. 

We've raised rabbits off and on for over 20 years and other livestock for eating as well. Years ago we only fed a high protein commercial pellets as recommended by the commercial white breeder we purchased our stock from back then.  We didn't worry about gmos, organic, etc..didn't even think about those things 20 years ago.  Maybe I'm over thinking things now with all the information available out on the internet, but I feel better feeding and treating the animals how I do now vs back then.

[Frank ZX]

First post. I started raising rabbits 3 months ago. I have 3 NZW and 3 Chinchilla. I have a 20 foot cage divided into 6 cages hung from chains in my barn. Cages stay very clean, and lots of litter for my garden this spring. I also have chickens but for me, I enjoy the rabbits more. I have 3 silver foxes on order and will be picking them up in about 4 weeks. I'm not cross breeding, I plan on eating some, selling some and may even try showing some.
I built the cages myself from 2X1 wire and 2X1/2 floor. I read a book called 'Rabbits" and it was very helpful for me.
I feed and water them daily. I use pellets feed and lots of timothy, some alfalfa, hens bit and other weeds from my yard. I also feed them some greens from the kitchen as a treat.
Haven't breed any of the rabbits yet because there only 5 months old. Some people say to wait til 5 months old and some say 7 months old. Can someone confirm how long I should wait to breed them?
Thanks.

[john gillis]

I breed my New Zealand's starting at 5 months of age and 8 pounds of weight min.. I also want them in very good condition.

[Frank ZX]

I breed my New Zealand's starting at 5 months of age and 8 pounds of weight min.. I also want them in very good condition.

Thanks John. They are about 10lbs and very healthy. Some are smelling of the others so I think they are ready.

[john gillis]

Do not let your rabbits get fat, that is one of the main breeding problems. Check the doe's plumbing, if it's red to almost purple then she is ready, if white, not ready, if pink maybe