Author Topic: ATF Visit  (Read 1590 times)

Offline DrJohn

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ATF Visit
« on: December 03, 2012, 02:45:15 PM »
A good friend of mine is a gunsmith (he was a master Marine Corp gunsmith) and a small dealer - basically a custom shop with all the tools needed to make whatever you desire.  He called me today and said the ATF stopped bye and copied every dang page of his book.  I was under the understanding that this was a no no.  He said what was he going to do?  They also said to him that they want him on their side.  I asked him what the heck they meant by that, he said he didn't have a clue!  This kind of stuff make one wonder what is brewing...
"In the end, more than freedom, they wanted security.
They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all - security,
comfort, and freedom. When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for most was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free and was never free again."
- Edward Gibbon

Offline Oil Lady

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2012, 03:37:18 PM »
His book??

What is that??

His book of customers??
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Offline DrJohn

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2012, 03:59:51 PM »
All FFL holders must keep records of every gun they sell, basically the BATFE form that you fill out when they do the background check, the FFL must keep this info on file for as long as they are in business.  When they retire, they must surrender the book to the ATF.    If there is a legit reason they may copy select information from the books, but the ATF is not allowed to take the book, or make copies of the whole book.
"In the end, more than freedom, they wanted security.
They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all - security,
comfort, and freedom. When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for most was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free and was never free again."
- Edward Gibbon

Offline JerseyVince

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2012, 04:06:20 PM »
Yes Oil Lady, but its a little more than that. It's officially his ATF LOG Book ALL sales/transfers/purchases/inventory with serial numbers and corresponding form 4473s. Thats how they tell who bought what when and from where.

This sounds like a fishing expo or the quiet beginning of making a national database. especially if he has never had a problem with the ATF before. in any kind of outright ban scam of semiautos you have to find the custom/small builders first and see what they have sold /instock because most of those guys will torch the records for the protection of their friends and fellow citizens and especially for the fact they aren't on computers. The big manufactures are all on computer as well as the large gun stores those records are available any time legally or otherwise.

This administration talks all peace and love out the front but acts like the KGB/GRU with the rights of certain groups who didn't vote for it or their views

DrJohn tell your buddy watch himself and his back

Offline ncjeeper

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2012, 04:28:11 PM »
There's a good chance ATF is doing a trace on a particular firearm(s) and at some point and time the firearm(s) came thru his transfer. I wouldnt get too bent out of shape over it.
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Offline Bonnieblue2A

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2012, 04:31:40 PM »
A good friend of mine is a gunsmith (he was a master Marine Corp gunsmith) and a small dealer - basically a custom shop with all the tools needed to make whatever you desire.  He called me today and said the ATF stopped bye and copied every dang page of his book.  I was under the understanding that this was a no no.  He said what was he going to do?  They also said to him that they want him on their side.  I asked him what the heck they meant by that, he said he didn't have a clue!  This kind of stuff make one wonder what is brewing...

IMO, your gunsmith friend should contact the best regarded "expert" firearms attorney in his state and find out about the jurisdiction of BATFE to copy his log. If they do not have that juridiction he should contact his Congressmen/women as well as Chairman Issa and Rep. Gowdy on the House Committee on Oversight and Reform, whom are currently shoulder deep investigating BATFE's practices. There is always room for more whistleblowers in the face of tyranny.

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Offline Cooter Brown

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2012, 04:42:26 PM »
Yes Oil Lady, but its a little more than that. It's officially his ATF LOG Book ALL sales/transfers/purchases/inventory with serial numbers and corresponding form 4473s. Thats how they tell who bought what when and from where.

This sounds like a fishing expo or the quiet beginning of making a national database. especially if he has never had a problem with the ATF before. ...
DrJohn tell your buddy watch himself and his back

And/or a gradual squeeze on the little guys. My favorite local shop back in RI was a one man show (retired cop) ATF did the same with him out of the blue; complete audit, records check, etc...

He actually said that maybe it was time to get out of the business as it was getting to be such a pain. I don't think .gov would shed many tears if he and thousands like him actually did so.
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Offline livinitup0

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2012, 04:50:53 PM »
"There's a good chance ATF is doing a trace on a particular firearm(s) and at some point and time the firearm(s) came thru his transfer. I wouldnt get too bent out of shape over it."

now now... no logical or probable explinations allowed here :)

C'MON! ITS A CUNSPUURASEE!!!!

Offline DrJohn

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2012, 05:03:11 PM »
If they are doing a trace on one or even a dozen books, why copy the whole darn thing, why not just find the pages you need and copy those?  Seems like a lot less effort to me.
"In the end, more than freedom, they wanted security.
They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all - security,
comfort, and freedom. When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for most was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free and was never free again."
- Edward Gibbon

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2012, 05:24:01 PM »
"There's a good chance ATF is doing a trace on a particular firearm(s) and at some point and time the firearm(s) came thru his transfer. I wouldnt get too bent out of shape over it."

now now... no logical or probable explinations allowed here :)

C'MON! ITS A CUNSPUURASEE!!!!

Perhaps spend some time looking into people murdered and lives destroyed by the ATF before mocking people for assuming they are up to no good even if there might be some explanation for it. At some point, an agency becomes evil enough that they don't deserve any benefit of doubt anymore.

Offline Bradbn4

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2012, 06:37:52 PM »
If I remember correctly, there was a Gun Talk radio / podcast I believed that what the ATF / BATF was against the law.   It was a big stink because they were going to all of the stores and collecting all of the material. 

Quick google found this info - I believe this was what Tom G' was talking about...


BATF in Alaska DEMANDING "Bound Book" from Gun Store to copy in its totality!!

http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/breaking-confrontation-between-alaska-gun-store-and-atf

Anchorage, Alaska indicates that a local gun store has refused to comply with an order from the ATF to turn over to the agency the official 'Bound Book' that firearms retailers are required to keep on site on customers and their purchases, photo I.D.s, and background checks.

The store's refusal has provoked a confrontation with the ATF, which claims that the Bound Book is 'their property.'

An initial report was published here yesterday concerning this new illegal activity on the part of the ATF.

According to a memo from the Anchorage Second Amendment Task Force, the Great Northern Guns store in Anchorage was asked to give their Bound Book to the ATF so it could be copied in its totality. The store refused, citing their legal rights and the fact that to do so would be a violation of the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 06:54:25 PM by Bradbn4 »
Brad(bn4) - In Colorado

Offline DrJohn

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2012, 07:27:08 PM »
Kinda make clear what they ment by "our side" if you ask me.
"In the end, more than freedom, they wanted security.
They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all - security,
comfort, and freedom. When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for most was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free and was never free again."
- Edward Gibbon

Offline flippydidit

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2012, 10:42:20 PM »
Perhaps spend some time looking into people murdered and lives destroyed by the ATF before mocking people for assuming they are up to no good even if there might be some explanation for it. At some point, an agency becomes evil enough that they don't deserve any benefit of doubt anymore.

I worked as a consultant setting up a gun store in southern Florida.  After getting all their T's crossed and I's dotted they received their first "meeting" with the ATF agent that showed up at their shop.  They were informed that they were to keep all copies of their 4473's and A/D log (Acquisition and Disposition).  That's all within the law.  When they asked what to do after the time passed for required holding of those documents, it was "put to them in no uncertain terms".  They were "encouraged" to turn the documents over to the ATF.  If they chose not to, things could get "difficult" when dealing with them.

It's ACTUAL cases like this that have ensured that I will never waste my time dealing with this type of organized crime.  I can do anything I want without an FFL and plan to keep it that way.
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Offline rogersorders

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2012, 07:41:44 AM »
There's a good chance ATF is doing a trace on a particular firearm(s) and at some point and time the firearm(s) came thru his transfer. I wouldnt get too bent out of shape over it.

When conducting an investigation it's common practice to ask for the records of three or four people in addition to the one you're actually looking for, it keeps the anonymity of the person being investigated and of the case. I don't know how the ATF runs their investigations, nor do I want to, but the entire book seems excessive.
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Offline livinitup0

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2012, 09:27:47 AM »
Perhaps spend some time looking into people murdered and lives destroyed by the ATF before mocking people for assuming they are up to no good even if there might be some explanation for it. At some point, an agency becomes evil enough that they don't deserve any benefit of doubt anymore.

It was a joke...

and btw....you're simply subscribing to the other extreme of this issue.

Offline EagleSteel

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2012, 09:40:31 AM »
A good friend of mine is a gunsmith (he was a master Marine Corp gunsmith) and a small dealer - basically a custom shop with all the tools needed to make whatever you desire.  He called me today and said the ATF stopped bye and copied every dang page of his book.  I was under the understanding that this was a no no.  He said what was he going to do?  They also said to him that they want him on their side.  I asked him what the heck they meant by that, he said he didn't have a clue!  This kind of stuff make one wonder what is brewing...

You can almost feel it in the air. Something just does not feel right. I can't explain it...
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Offline ncjeeper

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2012, 11:10:00 AM »
When conducting an investigation it's common practice to ask for the records of three or four people in addition to the one you're actually looking for, it keeps the anonymity of the person being investigated and of the case. I don't know how the ATF runs their investigations, nor do I want to, but the entire book seems excessive.
Yep.
The books are not that thick. About the size and thickness of a comic book. Once you fill one up you start with another.
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inbox485

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2012, 11:50:01 AM »
It was a joke...

and btw....you're simply subscribing to the other extreme of this issue.

Yup there are two extremes. One is that the ATF is fine and dandy and the other is that they are a state sponsored mafia. Only one side of that equation has the support of every fact and anecdote I've ever come across though. So yeah, consider me subscribed. ;)

Offline pokeshell

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2012, 09:35:59 PM »
Yup there are two extremes. One is that the ATF is fine and dandy and the other is that they are a state sponsored mafia. Only one side of that equation has the support of every fact and anecdote I've ever come across though. So yeah, consider me subscribed. ;)

+1

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Offline backwoods_engineer

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2012, 10:08:39 AM »
A good friend of mine is a gunsmith (he was a master Marine Corp gunsmith) and a small dealer - basically a custom shop with all the tools needed to make whatever you desire.  He called me today and said the ATF stopped bye and copied every dang page of his book.  I was under the understanding that this was a no no.  He said what was he going to do?  They also said to him that they want him on their side.  I asked him what the heck they meant by that, he said he didn't have a clue!  This kind of stuff make one wonder what is brewing...

Please, to save the lives of the people the ATF might be going after, tell us what dealer it was.

Offline cheryl1

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2012, 11:27:21 AM »
Please, to save the lives of the people the ATF might be going after, tell us what dealer it was.
I had the same thought. I hope the dealer notified his customers that tanks and incindiary rounds may be headed their way.
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Offline Hootie

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Re: ATF Visit
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2012, 12:01:17 PM »
You can almost feel it in the air. Something just does not feel right. I can't explain it...


I agree. With the gun and ammo rushes and the rumors of new gun laws... something is going to happen.
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