Author Topic: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?  (Read 3354 times)

Offline clayfarmer

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Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« on: December 06, 2012, 04:16:15 PM »
If we ever got to the point where gun confiscation became a reality, wouldn't it make sense to have a few blackpowder rifles (since they don't have to be registered) and all the supplies needed to shoot and maintain them?  Never really thought of this until a few minutes ago, so I'm thinking out loud here.

I wouldn't want to be left without a way to defend myself and take game.  They're relatively inexpensive, powder and balls/bullets are cheap.  And they're a lot of fun to shoot.

How long does powder store under dark, dry, cool conditions?  I would assume indefinitely but I don't know.  If I wanted to buy a case of Pyrodex to store long term, does it have a shelf life?
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Offline backwoods_engineer

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2012, 04:41:18 PM »
Just so you know, there isn't supposed to be gun registration in the free states (of course CA, NY, NJ, etc have it).  To do confiscation, the Jack Booted Thugs would have to grab ALL the Form 4473's, which is a violation of federal law.  Also, not all firearms in the US are bought through gun stores.

This isn't something I'm worried about.  American public opinion is toward MORE GUNS, not fewer.

Offline Mexican_Hippie

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2012, 05:07:46 PM »
Blackpowder guns are not considered firearms in some states.  So you may be able to legally have or carry them in areas where it would be otherwise prohibited to have a "firearm".

I don't worry too much about confiscation.

Offline bdhutier

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2012, 08:35:42 PM »
Clayfarmer: Real black powder (not Pyrodex, 777, and other substitutes), stored in a dry cool place, will last well over 100 years.  Pyrodex does have a shelf life, but very quickly deteriorates once opened. 

I really think it wise to include blackpowder weaponry in your preps.  BP can be made easily (trees, water, and urine), ball or shot are easily produced, and wadding/patches are easily procured.  Bad pick for a running street battle, but excellent choice for hunting in rough times.

Mexican-Hippie:  Yes and no... Many states do not define BP weapons, both original and reproductions, as firearms.  Instead, many define them as antiques.  But don't confuse ownership laws with the penal code.  For instance, the Texas penal code defines a firearm as:
Quote
"Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use." -- PC 46.01
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Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2012, 08:58:41 PM »
If we ever got to the point where gun confiscation became a reality...

If we get to that point, they'll be making up whatever rules they want to at that time.  I can imagine a situation where, say, regular shotguns are legal, but black powder and Pyrodex are specifically outlawed because somebody might make a pipe bomb out of them.  Laws don't have to be rational.

Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2012, 09:17:01 PM »
If we get to that point, they'll be making up whatever rules they want to at that time.  Laws don't have to be rational.

Thread over.
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Offline clayfarmer

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2012, 09:37:07 PM »
Appreciate the feedback. I don't worry about confiscation either, but when you look at some of the crap going on in the world, it's not out of the realm of possibility anymore.
My point was just that I can buy a black powder gun completely " off the books". If I pay cash, nobody but me and the cashier know that I own that weapon. They can't confiscate what doesn't exist.
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Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2012, 07:30:48 AM »
I have lost guns before.  Moving from house to house, boating accident, fell off the roof of my car while driving on the highway(the gun, not me).  So many ways to lose a gun.
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”  Robert Heinlein

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Offline Mexican_Hippie

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2012, 10:24:50 AM »
Mexican-Hippie:  Yes and no... Many states do not define BP weapons, both original and reproductions, as firearms.  Instead, many define them as antiques.  But don't confuse ownership laws with the penal code.  For instance, the Texas penal code defines a firearm as:Rolling the hood with an 1851 Navy under your jacket, and without a CHL, WILL land you in jail.

Important clarification, thanks! 

@Clayfarmer
I see BP as a hunting tool, not really a defense tool (absolutely last resort) .  Does your state not allow FTF sales of modern firearms?

Offline clayfarmer

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2012, 04:30:56 PM »
Important clarification, thanks! 

@Clayfarmer
I see BP as a hunting tool, not really a defense tool (absolutely last resort) .  Does your state not allow FTF sales of modern firearms?

Good question, I'm not sure.  I'm in Illinois so if it's illegal anywhere, its probably illegal here.  >:(
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Offline The Professor

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2012, 05:17:49 PM »
Just so you know, there isn't supposed to be gun registration in the free states (of course CA, NY, NJ, etc have it).  To do confiscation, the Jack Booted Thugs would have to grab ALL the Form 4473's, which is a violation of federal law.  Also, not all firearms in the US are bought through gun stores.

This isn't something I'm worried about.  American public opinion is toward MORE GUNS, not fewer.

Two issues here:

First of all, ATF IS grabbing the information. . .they're just not taking it from the 4473's.  It's now common practice to pull Bound Book information directly from the FFL's computer or copy it outright.  This way, the 4473's can remain in the hands of their owner (the FFL).  Illegal?  Arguable, but they're doing it, anyway:

http://www.examiner.com/article/alaska-gun-stores-say-atf-engaging-new-illegal-activity

Second, American opinion does not matter.  The average American's opinion in 1994 was against an "assault weapon's" ban.  Yet, it didn't stop many from jumping onto the bandwagon including Bill Ruger and the National Rifle Association from supporting such a bill, or at least from not fighting it.

Ten years of absolute stupidity.   Whatcha wanna bet that this time. . .their ain't no 10-year eclipse to the law?  In fact, it won't even BE a law, but a Presidential Directive to the ATF.

Yes, it can happen here.  It already has.  How short our memory is.

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Offline Rayray250

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2012, 06:17:46 PM »
@proffesor

Agreed but supporting an assault weapons ban and supporting the realization of gun confiscation is a jump across a chasm of different degrees. 

That said I wouldn't buy a BP powder rifle for this post's reason.  If guns are confiscated you'd be risking detainment firing any firearm BP or whatever you hid from them.
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Offline The Professor

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2012, 09:10:56 PM »
@proffesor

Agreed but supporting an assault weapons ban and supporting the realization of gun confiscation is a jump across a chasm of different degrees. 


I really don't mean to derail this thread, but:

No, it's not.  You're thinking like a sane, rational individual, not a hoplophobe.

Let me put it this way, and this IS how I think it will happen.

It will be done in two Presidential Directives.  The first one is to destroy gunshows.  The BATFE is directed to prosecute any transfers or sales of firearms by licensed dealers at any location other than that which is on their license.  This means, they cannot sell or transfer outside their shop or place of business.    Bam. In one stroke of the pen, gun shows are gone.

The second Directive is that any semi-automatic firearm, or firearm that takes a detachable magazine, or any firearm that holds more than five rounds of ammunition, be declared a title II (or even III) device.  Now, initially, there won't be a confiscation.  First, there will be a "grace period" of six months to a year in which anyone with the aforementioned firearms will be required to submit the appropriate forms and documentation for licensing of said firearms.

During this grace period, as part of the directive, the BATFE will be required to locate all firearms which meet the criteria and which were sold in the past, say, 50 years.  Initially, existing FFL's will be required to submit copies of the information in their bound books in electronic or paper format for any sales of aforementioned firearms.  Failure to do so will result in severe punishment (i.e., no burning of 4473's or bound books. . .think your FFL is a super patriot?  Watch what happens when he or she is faced with sharing a cell with a hairy-backed guy/gal named "Sweet Meat.).

Eventually, not immediately, there will be intentional raids and seizures of firearms.  No door-to-door stuff will be necessary.

For, you see, the average gun-owner is a law-abiding citizen by nature.  They won't rise up to fight the system.  They'll try to work within the system to fix the problem. . .in other words. . .they'll try to elect another President or have their elected officials figure out a way to overturn the directive.

In the mean time, Mr. Average Gun Owner will either turn the weapons in, or go through the paperwork.  Put this into place and, in 10-15 years, you'll see no private sale/transfer of these firearms and drastically diminishing legal sales.  The market will be so tight that few will spend the necessary $$ to get the guns.  Many manufacturers will go out of business, since the millions of assault weapons sales will trickle to a minimum.  Eventually, the market will balance out, but the price for said firearms will go through the roof, compared to what they are now.

A prime example is Class III weapons or, foreign-made assault weapons.  Try to buy an original Galil or Valmet, now.  They have to make new versions with a certain percentage of US-made parts.  Even class III weapons are ridiculously expensive because no new ones can be made since (iirc) 1986 for non-military/law enforcement use.

The same will happen to Semi-Autos.  A few raids may happen, but you won't see any Jack-Booted Thugs kicking in every door on your block looking for guns.  (But the precedent has been set for that, too. . .look at what happened to the bank-robber in Aurora when they stopped an entire block of traffic looking for the guy.  The LEO's won that.  So, someone calls and says "Hey, I saw a guy in a pick-up run into this subdivision with what looked like an AK47.  Bam!  The subdivision is locked down and every house searched with the occupants handcuffed on their lawns until the LEO's are through.  Oh wait!  They didn't find the suspect, but did turn up X number of other illegal weapons, which they now must prosecute, as well.)

Makes me sick just to write this.

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Offline Rayray250

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2012, 06:55:49 AM »
I certainly see your logic and understand what you are saying. 

So to answer the OP question in those circumstances that you are proposing he may be well off having a black powder gun b/c I only saw you foreseeing magazine fed weapons being banned and semi confiscated.
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Offline The Professor

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2012, 03:37:33 PM »
I certainly see your logic and understand what you are saying. 

So to answer the OP question in those circumstances that you are proposing he may be well off having a black powder gun b/c I only saw you foreseeing magazine fed weapons being banned and semi confiscated.

As long as the language of the directive doesn't directly impact the blackpowder weapon. 

This is supposition, here, purely, but. . .will  ". . .a firearm that holds more than five rounds. . ." apply to my LeMat Revolver (9-shot + 1)?

Historically, blackpowder weapons  have been exempt from most legislation applying to regular firearms.  How liberal, pardon the pun, will they be in application of the law?

I'd still be somewhat interested in blackpowder guns.  Say, a small .30ish caliber rifle for small game and a larger bore for deer, elk, etc.  Black powder can be readily made at home as can percussion caps (or, hell, why not flintlocks?) and bullets/shot.  Decent revolvers can be found that still shoot black powder.  My Le Mat is fearsome, if not rather large, for personal defense. Nine shots of .44 ball and, basically, a 20-gauge shot barrel.

Granted, I may not even be able to see the target after two or three rounds, but if I don't kill my attacker at short range, I'll either set him on fire or be able to do the ninja thing with all the white smoke hanging around.

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Offline backwoods_engineer

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2012, 10:58:57 PM »
Professor,

Let us just say that many of us will not hide in our suburban neighborhoods waiting for the SWAT team.  Even ATF agents have to go home sometime.

How do you define "civil war" ?

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2012, 11:28:44 PM »
... my LeMat Revolver...

Granted, I may not even be able to see the target after two or three rounds, but if I don't kill my attacker at short range, I'll either set him on fire or be able to do the ninja thing with all the white smoke hanging around.

 :rofl:

Wanted: smokeless black powder substitute!

Offline TheRancher

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2013, 04:57:23 PM »
Personally, I believe that anyone even slightly gun oriented should have a decent blackpowder revolver.  6 Shots is a fairly effective defensive weapon.  The shorter barrelled .44 caliber make a decent carry gun if everything falls apart.  You might even look into the laws of YOUR state.  In many states you can order the BP pistol by mail with no trace, then by seperate order (even from a different supplier) buy a Karst converter that can convert to cartridge.  Since the converter is just a cylinder it is a gun part not a gun and it does not need to go through a licenced FFL and can be mailed.  Just remove the percussion cylinder and insert the other.  You then have a legal single action cartridge revolver.  Note that you cannot do this with a cheap brass frame replica but the better replicas and the Ruger Old Army work well.  You do need to shoot blackpowder or low pressure rounds.  I have not owned one but I have shot them at SASS (Single Action Shooting Society) events and they are OK, but slower to reload than a Ruger Vaquero or Colt Single action.

By the way if you like shooting check to see if there is a SASS club close to you.  It is lot's of fun and I have not found anyone who think folks running around shooting at steel targets while dressed like an 1880's gunfighter or school marm is intimidating.  Unfortunately most peoples impressions of modern combat compitition is quite different.  Most of the skills developed will transfer to your Glock if you desire.  If you want to be a grey man, this is a good way to practice under the radar,  and have a blast doing it.
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Offline The Professor

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2013, 07:29:37 PM »
Professor,

Let us just say that many of us will not hide in our suburban neighborhoods waiting for the SWAT team.  Even ATF agents have to go home sometime.

How do you define "civil war" ?

Sorry, Backwoods, I didn't see this until just now.

The definition of a civil war is a war between two populations (or groups) within a country.  Some even accept a definition of two politically-organized nations originating from one (a la the American "civil war").

Most military scholars align with the belief that what most people term as a "civil war" is actually an insurrection, wherein a population rises up against it's government.  Now, there's a lot of discussion about whether the government will officially recognize the status of those who rise as "belligerents" (to do so would recognize the "rebels" as an official entity, or sovereign state/movement.  It generally is not in their best interest to do so, because then the relationship (i.e., armed conflict) is expected to be within the rules set by the laws of warfare and the Geneva Convention, et al, applied.

This is why you see many 3rd world countries denying there's an insurrection within their border.  They are then not required to recognize the "official" status of an uprising.  Why is this important?  Think of it this way: You are a rebel.  You are against the governmental power's that be. 

If you, and your cause, win belligerent status, then that colonel you just shot, or the representative of the government, is a casualty of war. If you are captured, your belligerent status is recognized and you must be treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention.

If you, and your cause, are not "belligerents,"  then a speedy trial can be conducted and you can be executed as a criminal.

So, exactly how excited do you think any government is to allow a civil war or belligerent status to be recognized?

The Professor
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Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2013, 07:53:12 PM »
[moderator]
Civil war and insurrection are off-topic for this thread and the Black Powder and Primitive Weapons board.

Planning what to do to ATF agents who "have to go home sometime" is off-limits for TSP Forum.

Thanks!
[/moderator]

Offline LdMorgan

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2013, 10:50:55 PM »
:rofl:

Wanted: smokeless black powder substitute!


May I direct you to Aisle 5 and the shelf with all the large containers of guncotton?

AKA Nitrocellulose, cellulose nitrate, flash paper, flash cotton, flash string and/or xyloïdine.

Cheap, easy to make, and about six times more powerful than black powder. If they could make it by accident in 1846, we should be able to make it on purpose in 2013.

Survivors all say it's not nearly as sensitive as other people would say.

If they could.

Nitrocellulose was actually the first form of smokeless gunpowder.

Unfortunately, it was not as stable as we are.



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Offline Jim H

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Re: Gun confiscation, are blackpowder rifles exempt?
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2014, 02:41:11 PM »

May I direct you to Aisle 5 and the shelf with all the large containers of guncotton?

AKA Nitrocellulose, cellulose nitrate, flash paper, flash cotton, flash string and/or xyloïdine.

Cheap, easy to make, and about six times more powerful than black powder.

The "six times more powerful than black powder" part would seriously worry me if I were planning to use it in a muzzleloader. Seen the remains of a cap lock that blew up with modern powder, amazed the guy only lost a hand and an eye and wasn't killed.

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