Author Topic: NRA Brokering the Surrender?  (Read 2932 times)

Offline Bonnieblue2A

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2012, 03:53:07 PM »


Thanks, Dr. John.

Meanwhile, I came up with an idea a few days ago while mulling all this over. This idea is NOT a mere "germ of an idea." (I never have mere germs of ideas.) Instead, it's a vast, sprawling idea. (Like some people have eyes bigger than their stomachs, I have an imagination bigger than my resources.)

I want to write up a pitch and proposal for a new TV show -- NatGeo, Discovery, take your pick-- about gun safety. Just a few days ago I launched a thread in the "Firearms Advice for Beginners" sub-forum here at TSP, asking for help with gun safety anecdotes and memes. (But I didn't really explain in that thread why I needed the help. Instead I just vaguely said "It's for a writing project.") But what I am actually angling in on with the data you guys provide me in that thread is I want to draw up a formal pitch for a fully realized weekly TV project, and then float it past ... anyone who is willing to listen (even that scoundrel named Alan Madison, the creator-producer of NatGeo's Doomsday Preppers

Here's my idea:

A weekly TV show which focuses (mostly) upon the "Four Rules of Gun Safety by Colonel Jeff Cooper," aka "Colonel Cooper's Rules."

I want to have a regular panel of no less than 5 gun safety experts on every episode who do talking-head/sit-down discourses and commentaries on gun safety. And the Four Rules will be the main springboard for every single gun safety issue they discuss.

And then I want to have interviews every episode with people who suffered a terrible tragedy due to their own failure to follow Colonel Cooper's Rules. (Perhaps they were never trained in Colonel Cooper's Rules. Perhaps they were in an impaired state of mind --such as anger or drunkenness-- and thus failed to recall or adequately employ Colonel Cooper's Rules.) And then, as they tell the viewer audience the sad tale of what sort of unintended tragedy befell them (they blew their own thumb off, they shot their own toe off, they shot their child, they killed someone, etc) there will be dramatic reenactments of each and every tragedy. And then commentary by the regular panel of gun experts on which of the Four Rules were being violated, and how that person could have done it better. 

I envision this as a thinking man's show. Sort of a gun safety version of Scared Straight. And (here's the important part) every show needs to end on an upbeat note:

-- Correct and proper repentance voiced by show's end on the part of the person who told us their tale.
-- Encouragement voiced at show's end to carry on in one's safe gunmanship on the part of the regular panel members.


And every episode needs to close with a sense-- a feeling, a mood, a tone-- that guns are serious, but manageable, and their management needs to be carried out with maturity and attentiveness. And it's that closing tone that the viewer takes with them to the office the next day when they stand around the water cooler chatting with their co-workers.





So .... that's my idea.



I have in mind an additional element to the show which I have not included here. But it's an element that will lend a sense of history to the overarching tone of the show, and try to draw out the GOOD parts of the American gun legacy, and (hopefully) instill a particularly levelheaded sense of pride over the historical aspects of American gunmanship, devoid of the Holywood nonsense and the juvenile antics that a lot of anti-gun folks (rightfully) find so odious.

Frankly, this is already done on other channels where the shooting sports are aired. See Midway USA and Larry Potterfield.
http://www.outdoorchannel.com/ProgramBlocks/WednesdayNightAtTheRange.aspx

 Also see the NRA Museum Youtube channel.  http://www.youtube.com/user/NFMCurator
 Though, I would love to see the NRA museum make the "big time" when it comes to showing off its historical collection to the main stream.

Also see the History Channel: http://www.history.com/shows/top-guns

I'm sure there is more out there that cast the historical role of firearms in American history and firearms safety/shooting sports in a positive light. These are the first that came to mind.

People get the TV programming they want and the advertisers follow.

"Hold on, my friends, to the Constitution and to the Republic for which it stands. Miracles do not cluster and what has happened once in 6,000 years, may not happen again. Hold on to the Constitution, for if the American Constitution should fail, there will be anarchy throughout the world.” –U.S. Senator Daniel Webster (1782-1852)


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Offline Alan Georges

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2012, 09:02:04 PM »
I have no interest in what Piers Morgan thinks.

And I don't give a damn what Piers Morgan thinks either.  What I care about is how he acted, on national TV, when Pratt put facts he didn't like in front of him.  Morgan made a total ass of himself, and by association gave gun control a black eye.

Every time we get a gun control freak to lose it in public, we convert more people to our side.  Kudos to Pratt, first for having the guts to go into the lion's den, and then to win!
Build it or buy it, start it up and try it, maybe even fry it.  Otherwise you'll never know if it works.

Offline nesmuk

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2012, 09:30:45 AM »
So uhm ... you're going to parade a weekly T.V.line  up of firearms accidents and idiots?? For the producers of "doomsday preppers"??????????????????????????????
Somehow I just don't think that's going to help our current situation ( i.e the "knife edge" of public opinion we are tottering on). :-[
Remember the viral you tube video of the  Cop in the school classroom show and tell?
 " 'Dis is a "Glock40". Far as I know Ah'm 'de only one here qualified to handle de' Glock."BANG!
" UH CRAP...." Not very confidence inspiring..
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 09:37:21 AM by nesmuk »

Offline SheepdogSurvival

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2012, 12:37:54 PM »
Well so far I'd say the NRA is on the right track! I watched their press release and it does not seem as if they are going to fold. Just sayin.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
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Offline Alan Georges

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2012, 01:03:16 PM »
So uhm ... you're going to parade a weekly T.V.line  up of firearms accidents and idiots??

Ah, no.  But when a rabid anti-gun journalist goes off the rails and starts insulting and screaming at a pro-gun advocate who is calmly presenting his case on national TV during a purportedly serious news/opinion show, it does our cause some good.

There is no comparison between this and the MSM's "doomsday preppers"-type entertainment shows.
Build it or buy it, start it up and try it, maybe even fry it.  Otherwise you'll never know if it works.

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2012, 01:04:42 PM »
Well so far I'd say the NRA is on the right track! I watched their press release and it does not seem as if they are going to fold. Just sayin.

Yeah, they're doing a good job handling this.  No folding in sight, but plenty of respect for the victims.  Something that the MSM hasn't shown much of....
Build it or buy it, start it up and try it, maybe even fry it.  Otherwise you'll never know if it works.

Offline ForgedPatriot

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2012, 06:55:24 PM »
While they might indeed cave, I can't imagine what else they could have said at this time and in these circumstances.

Those of us who are members need to be writing them as often and as forcefully as we write our elected officials. May not work, but we'll have done our part on that front. They are still the big dog in the fight; we need to do our best to ensure that they do, in fact, fight.

If they caved once why would they not do it again? Glad I am not a paying member of that organization, I'd be pissed right about now. I am glad there is an NRA, and if people want to join it that's great (not trying to down anyone that is). I do think they serve a purpose for the greater good of all gun owners, but I believe that the Second Amendment is strong enough to stand on it's own, as it has for many many years. I don't need to give my hard earned money to the juggernaut that the NRA is. The Government gets enough of my money. The fact of the matter is that no one.....not the NRA, not you, and not me will influence the changes that are coming down the pipe more than likely. The outcries of the weenies and non-gun owners have been heard all over Obamaland, and with Joe Biden now in the drivers seat....well lets just say that Joe can't even get dressed in the morning without the secret service laying out his clothes for him, let alone make sound and smart judgements about gun control. This AWB that everyone seems to see the writing on the wall about will more than likely happen again, just like it did in 1994. I think it's great that the president of the NRA is blasting efforts for an AWB, but do I think that it will mean diddly up against the current outcry? Not likely. Go ahead and flip over your magic 8-Ball like alot of us had when we were kids, and ask it if the NRA will be successful in heading off an AWB. The answer will likely be very doubtful. It will be interesting to watch and see how this unfolds.
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Offline joeinwv

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2012, 08:10:56 PM »
This is the problem with the "lesser of two evils" mentality in this country.

I do think the school shield program is a good move, as the NRA is a solid training organization.

However, regardless of what happens with AWB, the NRA will still be the NRA - there will not be a bigger or more viable option for gun owners. Which is what sucks.


Offline Mountain State Prepper

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2013, 04:44:13 PM »
And I don't give a damn what Piers Morgan thinks either.  What I care about is how he acted, on national TV, when Pratt put facts he didn't like in front of him.  Morgan made a total ass of himself, and by association gave gun control a black eye.

Every time we get a gun control freak to lose it in public, we convert more people to our side.  Kudos to Pratt, first for having the guts to go into the lion's den, and then to win!


Hey, following up on our Piers Morgan comments....did anyone read this?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2254758/Piers-Morgan-Deport-If-America-wont-change-crazy-gun-laws-I-deport-myself.html

I say..."don't let the door hit you on the a$$ on your way out there Piers!"

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Offline EagleSteel

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2013, 05:01:17 PM »
And I don't give a damn what Piers Morgan thinks either.  What I care about is how he acted, on national TV, when Pratt put facts he didn't like in front of him.  Morgan made a total ass of himself, and by association gave gun control a black eye.

Every time we get a gun control freak to lose it in public, we convert more people to our side.  Kudos to Pratt, first for having the guts to go into the lion's den, and then to win!

I agree. He's a typical radical liberal that see the world as a Disney cartoon where lions and zebras are best friends. The sooner liberals realize that lions eats zebras and bad people will kill good people (with or without guns) the sooner we'll get to a more peaceful world.
"Crocodiles: They eat everything, and fear is their bacon bits."
Archer


Quote from: Bonnieblue2A on 4/8/2014 at 02:50:14 AM
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Offline PistolWhipped

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2013, 10:49:51 AM »
Apparently Piers never learned about what happened last time a Brit tried to disarm the American people.

Offline joeinwv

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2013, 06:14:16 PM »
I would love to see Boehner make a statement on two items:
1. Debt ceiling will not be raised and the house is ready to shut down the .gov until spending is dialed back to a sustainable level.
2. Gun control is not on the table. Period.

Real life, the repubs are going to fold on the debt ceiling almost immediately. Then the NRA and the Republican house will really fight hard, dig in and completely cave on gun control. Sure, they'll get rid of some of the language regarding registration - but AR's and 11+ mags are goners.

Cry Baby Boehner, second verse same as the first.

Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2013, 09:32:29 PM »
I think the NRA is in the same weird position as the political parties.  They have to assess, "will I lose more by being unbending and losing my moderates? or from being flexible and losing my die hards?"  I personally doubt they are going to bend on semi-auto rifles or magazines.  They might go for some NICS strengthening or safe storage ideas.

The anti gunners and johnny come lately types who never thought much about guns till Newtown and now think they are experts severely misapprehend the gun owning population though. 

While firearms ownership has declined somewhat from the 50s and 60s, a lot of the gun owners who are dying off were hunters who owned a few guns that were primarily sporting weapons and did double duty as defensive weapons.  The new generations of gun owner are much different.  Many of them have CCW permits, they are more likely to have not only hunting weapons but self defense weapons and even the dreaded black rifle.  Even the ones that are primarily hunters, still have CCWs and ARs.  Gun Owner 3.0 is even more interesting, they are largely tactical shooters with no real interest in hunting at all.  They live for 3 gun, training courses and live the tactical lifestyle.  Many are relatively apolitical since they came of age in the 2000s when the dems were very low key on guns.  Gun Owner 3.0 will have his lifestyle destroyed by and AWB or magazine capacity ban not to mention the wholesale demonization of their lifestyle.  Gun owner 3.0 is about to get very political and they are tech savvy, do not look like "normal" gun owners and may become a powerful force for the 2A.
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Offline ag2

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2013, 10:34:35 PM »
I'm told NICS checks are taking 9 days right now.

An out of state gun shop told me (two weeks ago) that 8,000 people a day are joining NRA.  I'm sure that initial wave of support is waning by now, but it's good to see such strong support.  Perhaps we will fend off the crazy politicians this year.
Mild-mannered beans, bullion, band aids, bullets prepper cautiously watching history repeat itself.

Offline Mountain State Prepper

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2013, 07:21:33 AM »
An out of state gun shop told me (two weeks ago) that 8,000 people a day are joining NRA.  I'm sure that initial wave of support is waning by now, but it's good to see such strong support.  Perhaps we will fend off the crazy politicians this year.


OK, maybe we need another thread here with a poll, but I'm wondering what exactly the NRA does for you?   I stated in a previous post that I was a member a long time ago....twenty years ago mabye?   All it got me was a bunch of mail and requests for more donations.

Do you NRA folks really have a good membership experience?   I'm a member of Trout Unlimited, so I'm not opposed to joining organizations, just curious what it does for you?   In TU I get a magazine, and I can go to chapter meetings, but I rarely do.   I do know it puts back into our local streams and helps educate regarding water habitat, etc.   For my $35/year, it seems worth it, and they don't badger me with mailers that my streams are going to run polluted if I don't give them more money.   As I recall, that was the tone of all my NRA correspondence.


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Offline Cooter Brown

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2013, 07:51:20 AM »
The primary reason that I stick with them is that year in and year out they can walk in to my congress critters' offices and say "we represent a constituency of more than 4 million engaged and active gun owners" (probably a good deal more now if the the stories about recent membership spikes can be believed) . They are the only organization that can say that currently.

Additionally, they have the resources to put a huge legal team to work to analyze and parse complex legislation like the AWB is sure to be, while remaining alert to other possible legislation the might try to sneak in.

Sure, I have some problems with them. I'm not wild about all the solicitations, especially with overblown claims of impending doom. I wish they had a  more conciliatory tone in their statements to the general public, but were much less compromising when it comes to the actual legislative process.

I look forward to the day when there are other organizations that can also bring such clout to the lobbying table, but for now, for me, it is not a question of NRA or another organization, but the NRA and.
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Offline ag2

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2013, 09:20:40 AM »
Cooter said it very well, all I can do is echo his statement.

I would encourage you to listen to the NRAs podcast for a week or so, not all three hours, but an hour here and there.  I think the podcasts do a better job of connecting with their members and sharing their accomplishments than their printed material.

Mild-mannered beans, bullion, band aids, bullets prepper cautiously watching history repeat itself.

Offline 2ADefense

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2013, 11:52:44 AM »
The primary reason that I stick with them is that year in and year out they can walk in to my congress critters' offices and say "we represent a constituency of more than 4 million engaged and active gun owners" (probably a good deal more now if the the stories about recent membership spikes can be believed) . They are the only organization that can say that currently.

...

I look forward to the day when there are other organizations that can also bring such clout to the lobbying table, but for now, for me, it is not a question of NRA or another organization, but the NRA and.

I completely agree.  If you don't like the mail asking for more money, throw it away.  If you don't want the magazine, either opt for the digital edition or none at all.  The NRA is the organization that currently has the clout in DC, and EVERY gun owner should be a member.

NRA is not my favorite organization (it falls well behind GOA and SAF in my book), but it is the only group that can carry a big enough stick to get legislators to listen.  Join the NRA, then join another group.

Offline The Professor

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2013, 01:27:41 PM »
I completely agree.  If you don't like the mail asking for more money, throw it away.  If you don't want the magazine, either opt for the digital edition or none at all.  The NRA is the organization that currently has the clout in DC, and EVERY gun owner should be a member.

NRA is not my favorite organization (it falls well behind GOA and SAF in my book), but it is the only group that can carry a big enough stick to get legislators to listen.  Join the NRA, then join another group.

So how do you explain their capitulation on the 1994 ban?   How do you explain why they allowed this to pass?  Was it incompetence?  Was it lack of clout?  Perhaps it was just a plan to increase membership?

Please explain to me how this massive organization with enough clout to make legislators listen (presumably also make them toe the 2A line), allowed the 1994 ban to come into being.

Moreover, if the NRA were so rock-solid, why are people panicking?  After all, none of this Feinstein AWB <expletive deleted> stands a chance of passing. . .right?

I know it doesn't matter. . .after all, I'm just one person.  But, I'm getting sick and tired of hearing the standard line that "The NRA will protect us."  Horse Hockey.

The NRA is going to do what's best for THEM, not gunowners.  After the 1994 ban, NRA memberships drove through the roof as the uninformed ignorant masses panicked to join an organization that helped craft the very legislation they feared.

They threw MILLIONS of dollars at a group that had, on it's board of directors, people who were COMPLICIT with the establishment, definition and passage of the bill.  One such Director PAID to have his company's guns left off the list.  He paid one of the biggest supporters of the bill.

Did the NRA distance themselves?  Oh, hell no.  In fact, they even established a much-vaunted gallery in their Firearms museum named after the man.

You go ahead and pay them to stab you in the back.  While you are turning in your firearms or find yourself unable to buy this rifle or that  pistol, they'll still be driving their Cadillacs, Lincolns, Mercedes, etc. and wearing their $5k suits.  While you are bemoaning a liberal politician's glee at having Mr. & Mrs. America " turn them all in," they'll be increasing their orders of donation solicitations and slavering over how much they can increase their own take-home pay.

While you're standing in line at the Buy-Back Program, they'll be on their hunts to Argentina, the African Veldt and Russia and working on the best wording that will separate you from your hard-earned cash.

Feel free to keep throwing good money after bad.  After all, it's YOUR cash.  For me, I've seen the stripe of the animal and I no longer want anything to do with a group that takes gunowners' money to protect their rights and then turns around and negotiates those same rights away.

The Professor
On "The List" since 1994.  Isn't it about time YOU got on The List?

Yeah, that's right. . ."Professor EMERITUS!"  Now, pardon me while I show up "late" for. . .uh. . .work.

Offline Cooter Brown

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2013, 01:45:54 PM »
Gee, Professor, why don't you tell us what you really think!  ;)

I don't disagree with much that you have said. The NRA won't save us, we've got allot of work to do for ourselves. The NRA got a letter (and will get more) from me very similar to the one I wrote to one of my congress critters who's support for gun rights has been lukewarm and grudging; namely that any caving on the ban or other bills will earn my active campaigning against them. You are obviously already there. I respect your position and may well be joining you there soon.

I still have hope, but I don't have expectations.

I've worked in the political world and fully expect that any compromise that might be reached that removes the most odious restrictions while leaving others intact will be declared by the NRA to be a "victory" for gun owners.

We desperately need another organization or two to grow to the size of the NRA. The competition would surely improve the product.

In the mean time, I'm still willing to work with what we've got, low expectations and all.
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Offline 2ADefense

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2013, 02:42:47 PM »
So how do you explain their capitulation on the 1994 ban?   How do you explain why they allowed this to pass?  Was it incompetence?  Was it lack of clout?  Perhaps it was just a plan to increase membership?

Please explain to me how this massive organization with enough clout to make legislators listen (presumably also make them toe the 2A line), allowed the 1994 ban to come into being.

...

Feel free to keep throwing good money after bad.  After all, it's YOUR cash.  For me, I've seen the stripe of the animal and I no longer want anything to do with a group that takes gunowners' money to protect their rights and then turns around and negotiates those same rights away.

The Professor

Fair enough.  I get that you're not enamored with any of the 2A organizations that are available to us and that purport to support our interests.  What would you propose as a better, more practical, suggestion for folks looking to try to protect their firearms rights?

Offline inbox485

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2013, 03:08:46 PM »
Saying the NRA is useless is like saying the sky is blue. There are exceptions, but you usually are right. Look at who spews rhetoric and who gets stuff done. NRA had nothing to do with Heller until just before the end, and they almost killed and may well be to blame for McDonald not overturning the slaughter house cases. They frankly are a bunch of bumper sticker ... that have a whole lot of members that don't have another good option that they see.

My recommendation is to just ignore NRA for now. Write your .gov critters and ask them to not only refuse any sort of compromise, but rather propose their own solutions such as ending gun free zones, and mandating that teachers have some way to be licensed to carry, and mandating that schools take responsibility for failing to defend children.

If anybody is looking for a group that has testicles and a spine, look at Firearms Policy Coalition. They are the new umbrella org for the groups that have been doing what NRA chooses to ignore and resist while they whine about UN conspiracies and slapping their name on things for last minute PR after they wasted money resisting the actual work. You can thank them for convincing courts to recognize the 2nd amendment, and shifting the effort from begging a boon from our elected to getting the courts to tell them where to stick it.

www.firearmspolicy.org
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 09:35:46 PM by TexDaddy »
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Offline joeinwv

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2013, 12:08:06 AM »
Professor +1 and couldn't agree more.

With regard to writing your elected officials - send a very short HANDWRITTEN note and ask for a written reply. Much more effective than sending email or a long form letter they ain't gonna read.

Offline robertov416

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2013, 09:25:55 AM »
If the NRA is not all you think it should be consider supporting other organizations instead of or in addition to for legislative action:

Gun Owners of America
http://gunowners.org/

Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (no... I"m not Jewish, but they are active and don't discriminate)
http://jpfo.org/

Or your State/Local orgs... for me that would be Ohio:

Buckeye Firearms Association
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/

Ohioans for Concealed Carry
http://ohioccw.org/

And then consider using Congress.org to contact your reps let them know your positions:
http://www.congress.org/news/

Offline ag2

  • Survivalist Mentor
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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2013, 11:40:03 PM »
We can all have different positions toward certain organizations, we should (me included) "come together" and oppose these nutty politicians.


JOIN, or DIE

Here are a few more 2nd amendment organizations:
http://www.saf.org/
http://www.rmgo.org/

“It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.”
? Samuel Adams
Mild-mannered beans, bullion, band aids, bullets prepper cautiously watching history repeat itself.

Offline ScottyK

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Re: NRA Brokering the Surrender?
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2013, 12:03:14 PM »

I was a member of the NRA a long time ago.  The only thing it got me was a lot of mail asking for more money.

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who experienced this. A few years ago I (naively) thought it would be good for me to join the NRA and help out. All I got out of it was phone calls, emails, and snail mail asking for more and more money. I never used any of the "benefits", but they must have used my annual membership fee to get more money out of me.