Author Topic: Defense where none is allowed  (Read 9626 times)

Offline Burton

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Defense where none is allowed
« on: December 28, 2012, 08:29:23 AM »
I am looking to get my CCP in VA as soon as I decide between a P239 SAS 2 or G27 but I cannot carry with me all the time. In fact most of the time I cant carry since I work and commute to DC 5 days a week.

This got me to thinking about non lethal (NL) and less than lethal (LTL) options. My first thought was a taser or stun gun, but even those are illegal in DC. My second thought was OC / Pepper spray and it turns out you can buy them in DC but only if you register it with the local PD and you have to be a resident (similar to owning a gun in DC you must be a resident and register it).

Some have claimed to have called the Metro PD and asked about carrying OC / P into DC from another state as a non resident and they said it was ok. But others have stated it is not by simply reading the rule. So I asked my step father, a 25yr recently retired fairfax VA cop and he said it was illegal. >_<

So what does that leave me with? Knives? I know anything over 3" and your asking for trouble, 2"+ if your going to places like the Pentagon.

What other options are there? I don't think I want to be walking around with a cane to beat someone who has a gun pointed at me.

Thoughts?

Offline MCopes

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2012, 09:46:26 AM »
Move, as soon as possible.

Offline Burton

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2012, 11:00:09 AM »
Move, as soon as possible.

LOL I dont live in the city, I live in VA and commute there.

I keep finding several difference sources who claimed to have called Metro PD and confirmed if they carry OC / P into DC from another state it is legal. So now I am looking at reviews and sizes for my DC EDC lol

Offline pokeshell

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2013, 07:45:28 PM »
Move, as soon as possible.
Move Find new work, as soon as possible.


Offline Hurricane

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2013, 09:57:14 AM »
LOL I dont live in the city, I live in VA and commute there.

I keep finding several difference sources who claimed to have called Metro PD and confirmed if they carry OC / P into DC from another state it is legal. So now I am looking at reviews and sizes for my DC EDC lol
Simply call the police and ask. Use the phone in someone else's office  ;D
Or maybe you regularly see the same officers in your work area and could talk to them personally?

Offline Luvmy45

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2013, 10:46:10 PM »
Lots of options...

First, get a small knife, nev a bad idea to have one for multiple things.

If you carry a bag of any kind, carry some wasp spray with you. It's a big can, but it has long range, and its not illegal.  Or at least keep some at your office space.

Keys... Have enough keys on your ring that you can put them in your hands sticking out to scratch and poke

Kubaton... Large wooden dowel on your keychain, learn how to use it.

Sharkie or something like it... Even a good metal ball point pen can work great.

I'm not telling you to break the law here..l but pepper spray is easy to conceal and carry... Same with a larger knife, unless your going in and out of security check points. Risk vs reward.

Your best line of defense though is getting out of the white mindset and living in the yellow. Awareness of your surroundings, who's around you and what's going on.... The way to win a gunfight... Is not to be there.

Good luck

Offline bcksknr

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2013, 05:22:11 AM »
Before I retired from teaching, I kept a can of the nastiest wasp nest spray I could find in my desk and a golf putter behind it. The schools plan for an armed "invader" was for me to lock the door and pull down the window shade on the large glass door window next to the door knob (that could always be opened from inside, if someone shot out the window). I've heard oven cleaner can be dangerous when sprayed in the face, but wasp spray will hit a nest with a concentrated stream from 20+ feet, and the label cautions that a human might stop breathing if it's inhailed. Of course its against the law to use it in an "unapproved" manner. Too bad some of the teachers in Connecticut weren't prepared for a "wasp" problem.

Offline joeandmich

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2013, 06:07:52 AM »
When I take my dog on walks at 5am in the morning I usually take my cold steel polypropelene sjambok which is a 3' black whip like stick. If I had to conceal it I would take a belt knife made of hard plastic. It can't cut well but can punch stab well enough.

Offline livinitup0

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2013, 07:22:30 AM »
Lots of options...

First, get a small knife, nev a bad idea to have one for multiple things.

If you carry a bag of any kind, carry some wasp spray with you. It's a big can, but it has long range, and its not illegal.  Or at least keep some at your office space.

Keys... Have enough keys on your ring that you can put them in your hands sticking out to scratch and poke

Kubaton... Large wooden dowel on your keychain, learn how to use it.

Sharkie or something like it... Even a good metal ball point pen can work great.

I'm not telling you to break the law here..l but pepper spray is easy to conceal and carry... Same with a larger knife, unless your going in and out of security check points. Risk vs reward.

Your best line of defense though is getting out of the white mindset and living in the yellow. Awareness of your surroundings, who's around you and what's going on.... The way to win a gunfight... Is not to be there.

Good luck

Wasp spray is illegal to use as a weapon, as are larger knives in most states.
One of these other weapons may be applicable here...but are going to be practically worthless without training.

Offline bcksknr

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2013, 07:55:20 AM »
No offense meant, but many things that are legal to have on your person are illegal to use in an "unapproved" manner. I'd rather have to explain to a jury why the purp who was trying to shoot up a classroom, died from inhaling wasp spray (not to mention a putter stuck in his skull). The children and teachers who died at Sandy Hook where following "approved" procedures and were entirely within the law (and dead).

Offline livinitup0

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2013, 08:00:36 AM »
No offense meant, but many things that are legal to have on your person are illegal to use in an "unapproved" manner. I'd rather have to explain to a jury why the purp who was trying to shoot up a classroom, died from inhaling wasp spray (not to mention a putter stuck in his skull). The children and teachers who died at Sandy Hook where following "approved" procedures and were entirely within the law (and dead).

to each their own... but I dont think discussing using illegal defense measures is allowed on this board....just a heads up.

Offline Luvmy45

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2013, 10:49:08 AM »
It's not illegal to carry wasp spray... You just bought some and are carrying home from where you bought it.

Now, if something bad were to happen and you happen to have it on you... And your willing to use it in an "unapproved" manner, then so be it,,,

I can't really believe we are having this conversation though ???

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2013, 11:31:28 AM »
to each their own... but I dont think discussing using illegal defense measures is allowed on this board....just a heads up.

MODERATOR NOTE:

There's a very blurry line between
  • protecting Jack from legal liability, and
  • being totally OCD about every possibly-illegal thing that might get mentioned on the forum.

We aim for balance, and we do have a lot of moderator discussions along the lines of "Is this too illegal?" "Gosh, I dunno, what do you think?" "Well, it's illegal in California but not Wyoming..." etc.

To a large extent, we're relying on you guys to moderate yourselves.  If you're about to post something that could attract the attention of some hot-shot prosecutor or liability lawyer, please give it some extra thought.  Thanks.

Offline Twibble

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2013, 11:35:48 AM »
I used to carry a roll of quarters and a handkerchief whenever I flew.  I have long hair, so I always have things to tie it back with.  A roll of quarters tied into the corner of a handkerchief can thunk somebody pretty well.  Fair warning though, apparently some of the X-ray machines can't see what a roll of quarters is, so security might want to see it.

Offline livinitup0

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2013, 11:49:21 AM »
MODERATOR NOTE:

There's a very blurry line between
  • protecting Jack from legal liability, and
  • being totally OCD about every possibly-illegal thing that might get mentioned on the forum.

We aim for balance, and we do have a lot of moderator discussions along the lines of "Is this too illegal?" "Gosh, I dunno, what do you think?" "Well, it's illegal in California but not Wyoming..." etc.

To a large extent, we're relying on you guys to moderate yourselves.  If you're about to post something that could attract the attention of some hot-shot prosecutor or liability lawyer, please give it some extra thought.  Thanks.

I'll just leave it to you guys in the future.... Im still kinda confused on whats cool and whats not.

so...about that wasp spray...

if a guy with bear spray and a guy with wasp spray walk into a bar... uh....crap....I forget how this one ends.

;)

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2013, 12:07:33 PM »
I'll just leave it to you guys in the future.... Im still kinda confused on whats cool and whats not.

Yeah, so are we.  We do the best we can.

if a guy with bear spray and a guy with wasp spray walk into a bar... uh....crap....I forget how this one ends.

If this were the moderator's board, it would end with gay porn and inflatable goats. 8)

Offline rustyknife

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2013, 12:52:22 PM »
Carry a spray bottle of ammonia/water mix. If some one asks what it's for" it is to wash you car windows".

Offline windchill

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2013, 01:01:14 PM »
Does the nature of your work require hand tools? A trick that the 2-legged rats around here use is to carry a framing hammer on their pants loop, or just walk around with a large flat screwdriver and a rag like they are on their way to fix something, loitering outside of businesses.

Offline Burton

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2013, 01:53:40 PM »
Odd, but good, to see this topic take off after a week of being posted.

Biggest knife you can carry in DC is 3" before you get in trouble, and a knife isn't going to stop someone easily.

As far as wasp spray I can't think of a 'legal' reason I would be carrying before happen to use it on a perp. Personally I work on computers, and not physically, so tools would be out of the question however I do ride a motorcycle so I am sure there is something I can claim is for the bike that I carry. And I imagine those who ride a bike could do the same. (like maybe a hard metal pump or something)

DC does allow OC/ Pepper spray but going with the original theme lets imagine we are in some place which doesn't allow pepper spray like Chicago or NY City.

I have a feeling there are many things we could carry which serve other purposes but when used right can be used for defense. My mother carried one of those aluminum 5" / 6" batons on her key ring and I was trying to detach it when I found out the hard way it also contained pepper spray >_<

I think the key with any defensive measure would be distance. At what distance is it useful and how effective would it be.

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2013, 02:28:55 PM »
My suggestion is to learn the laws and follow them. Don't ever under any circumstances call a cop, and ask a legal question. They aren't lawyers. The only good answer they can give you is to not trust any legal advise from a cop. As far as breaking laws, I don't advocate it. There are those that do, and follow the reasoning that the risk of the law is less than the risk of the criminal, but IMO there are better ways of handling it. Best suggestion is to plan your commute to be as direct of an in and out as possible and learn some empty handed / improvised weapon skills. If I recall, DC is one of the areas where anything that is carried as a weapon is an illegal weapon, but things that have a non weapon purpose are fair game if you happen to use them defensively.

Whatever you carry, just be sure it doesn't become some sort of talisman. I could do more with a 3" knife than most people could do with a machete, but I don't exactly expect that to be the norm, and I don't exactly feel naked without one. All the kobutons and junk in the world are only incrementally better than your bare hands. Pepper spray is not your friend if you can't back it up or get the heck out of there.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2013, 08:45:00 PM »
I travel to the DC and Reston areas regularly.  The use of "defensive sprays" are indeed legal in DC.  You can find the codes here: http://mpdc.dc.gov/page/self-defense-sprays-registration-requirements-and-use-dc.  If you contact the metro police, what they probably will tell you is that if you buy it in DC you will need to have the vender send in the form.  But if you live outside DC and purchase it outside (including online), you will not need to register it.

The use of wasp spray as a defensive spray would actually violate both DC and federal laws.  DC regulates the ingredients which can be used in defensive sprays (they qualified five of them including the most common and very effective, OC).  The active ingredients of wasp spray aren't included and can in fact have permanent health effects.  Also, as a pesticide, wasp sprays fall under the laws regulating misuse.

Offline CR Williams

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2013, 07:22:51 AM »
Throw a few bucks at a good wide-body pen made of stainless steel. Some very fine fountain pens available, if I recall correctly, not to mention ballpoints and rollerballs, for ten to twenty dollars that would serve you well. Less obtrusive than a kubotan, which won't be allowed in some areas, but about the same size for use of kubotan techniques. On the lower end of expense, I've found the Zebra line of pens and mechanical pencils to be very sturdy and good for...writing and drawing...yes, that's it...writing and drawing...

If you are familiar with flexible-weapons, something in the lines of a manriki kusari can be constructed. The last one I had used parachute cord on two keychains. For ease of access to the keys, you can loop the cord through the belt where it holds the keyrings in the top area of the pocket. Also Keyper makes a retractable keychain that uses a Kevlar line. Or a two-or-three foot USB or network cable, assuming you have devices that may need hooking up from time to time.

A half-handful of loose change in the pocket could serve as metsubushi to support any or all of this or whatever else you can deploy.

Don't forget also to consider use of things such as books, notepads, briefcases, and backpacks. Some imagination and a few minutes of experimentation will bring dividends here.

Offline livinitup0

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2013, 07:52:19 AM »
A weapon without extensive training is just a false sense of security and and excuse to get hurt. Id highly suggest if you're concerned about safety to really focus on situational awareness,....and since you already said pepper spray was allowed in DC I think you've found your self-defense answer.

If it werent allowed Id suggest a self-defense class... no offense to anyone at all, but all these improvised weapons are going to be absolutely worthless without actually using them in a high-adrenaline situation numerous times and gaining experience with them...and in most cases with these weapons you're actively going to be making the choice to fight your attacker rather than running away from them... call me a coward but Ive got way too many people that rely on me for me to get hurt playing ninja when in most cases I could throw a money-clip filled with monopoly money on the ground and run away.....I think thats the most likely way I can gaurantee that I'll be going home to my family.

That being said I do carry up to what the law allows me to carry and I have a 2nd degree black belt in TaeKwonDo... but if I were in a confrontation im going to be looking for the 1st chance to run... and if I literally cant... then...and only then...will I use force to extract myself from the situation. 

again...just my $0.02.

Offline CopperKnight

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2013, 08:21:20 AM »
A weapon without extensive training is just a false sense of security and and excuse to get hurt.

I agree here. 

Use a 2 AA Maglight attached to keys as a kubaton.  Keep wasp spray at work and in your car in a hardware store bag with a box of screws and a screwdriver like you just bought it.  Walk with a limp and carry a cane.  Tightly roll up a sturdy magazine to use as a striking implement.  Choose a thing or two or three of any of to do, then learn how to use your chosen workarounds effectively. 

As for protecting yourself against a guy with a gun, nothing is as effective as return fire.  Do what you can with what you have when it happens.

Offline Jack Crabb

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2013, 09:01:54 AM »
Don't be short sighted. The initial act of self-defense is only the first, but very important, part.

There may be civil litigation that follows when the assailant sues you for personal injury suffered in the course of assaulting you. Do you want to defend that suit with stories about the wasp spray, ammonia, rusted fishhooks, sharpened screwdrivers, etc. that you kept? Or, do you want to present a defense that you used pepper spray, kubaton, flashlight, etc. just as the LEO and security people do?

Bernie Goetz wounded four assailants. He was charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless endangerment, and several firearms offenses. A jury found him not guilty of all charges except an illegal firearms possession count.

Another jury found that Goetz had acted recklessly and had deliberately inflicted emotional distress on one of the assailants. The jury awarded $43 million – $18 million for pain and suffering and $25 million in punitive damages. Goetz subsequently filed for bankruptcy. A judge of the United States Bankruptcy Court ruled that the $43 million jury award could not be dismissed by the bankruptcy.

Offline CopperKnight

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2013, 10:07:55 AM »
Don't be short sighted. The initial act of self-defense is only the first, but very important, part.

There may be civil litigation that follows when the assailant sues you for personal injury suffered in the course of assaulting you. Do you want to defend that suit with stories about the wasp spray, ammonia, rusted fishhooks, sharpened screwdrivers, etc. that you kept? Or, do you want to present a defense that you used pepper spray, kubaton, flashlight, etc. just as the LEO and security people do?

Bernie Goetz wounded four assailants. He was charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless endangerment, and several firearms offenses. A jury found him not guilty of all charges except an illegal firearms possession count.

Another jury found that Goetz had acted recklessly and had deliberately inflicted emotional distress on one of the assailants. The jury awarded $43 million – $18 million for pain and suffering and $25 million in punitive damages. Goetz subsequently filed for bankruptcy. A judge of the United States Bankruptcy Court ruled that the $43 million jury award could not be dismissed by the bankruptcy.

Which, I believe, shows that you protect yourself however you can.  If there are two juries that can give as polar opposite results as those did, you can't predict what will happen after the assault.  I'd rather owe some piece of crap criminal my house and be alive than be dead and because I did nothing, fearing he might get my possessions if I defend myself.

Offline livinitup0

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2013, 10:35:48 AM »
"I'd rather owe some piece of crap criminal my house and be alive than be dead and because I did nothing, fearing he might get my possessions if I defend myself."

I'd rather train extensively with defense so I can not only mitigate threats but also gaurantee (as much as possible) that mt life wont be ruined in the process. I really dont think you have to choose one or the other.

Offline CopperKnight

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2013, 11:43:31 AM »
I'd rather train extensively with defense so I can not only mitigate threats but also gaurantee (as much as possible) that mt life wont be ruined in the process.

I agree, as stated in my previous post: "Choose a thing or two or three of any of to do, then learn how to use your chosen workarounds effectively." 

I really dont think you have to choose one or the other.

I disagree with this statement only in the respect that you don't get to choose if your life is ruined or not.  That decision is made by the prosecutor, the dirtbag, and/or the jury.  There may be fact twisting, outright lies, insinuations, and other things during the process that will affect the outcome. 

Keeping up your situational awareness to avoid any problems you can is your best bet.  Having sound judgement and knowing when to stop actively defending yourself (fighting) and flee as well as knowing how to defend yourself come after that.

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2013, 11:48:11 AM »
who says i'm going to stick around after the assault?  is the bad guy going to call the cops?  maybe, maybe not. 


Offline livinitup0

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Re: Defense where none is allowed
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2013, 11:53:31 AM »
"I disagree with this statement only in the respect that you don't get to choose if your life is ruined or not."

True... but I think proper training also involves training in mitigating legal ramifications as much as possible... much like in CCW training. I dont think theres anything that will "gaurantee" that there will be no repercussions....but I definitely think there are things we can do and I definitely do not agree that you have to make choice between lawlessness or being defenseless.