Author Topic: Defense Study: Caliber  (Read 10089 times)

Offline JustGreg

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Karma: 2
Defense Study: Caliber
« on: January 09, 2013, 09:17:03 PM »
If it comes to a situation where you want to be the survivor, please consider caliber:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

G.

Offline flippydidit

  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1582
  • Karma: 91
  • Keep 'em shooting!
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2013, 11:13:44 PM »
One of my most liked studies.  It reinforces my belief.  The purpose of a handgun is to defend yourself on your way to getting your rifle.

Offline fritz_monroe

  • The Defenestrator
  • Administrator
  • Survival Veteran
  • *******
  • Posts: 8374
  • Karma: 151
    • The Homestead Fritz
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2013, 04:48:41 AM »
Jack did an entire show on the stopping power of various handgun rounds.  I think this one may be it. 

Episode-855- Understanding Caliber, Millimeter, Gauges and Ballistics

Offline Burton

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 357
  • Karma: 14
  • NOVA Prepper
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2013, 07:25:31 AM »
Not sure if I found this here or just randomly browsing but this is the perspective of caliper from an anesthesiologist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA

 The short of it, handguns don't kill people but 1 in 6 times and high powered rifles kill more often due to fragmentation. The video has some graphic video and pictures so be careful if your squeamish or at work ^_^

There is a reason police keep firing till the threat isn't presented any more. It isn't uncommon to put 5 or more rounds in someone  before they stop being a threat. Makes you really think about how the media reports police incidents where the officer shot the suspect multiple times.

endurance

  • Guest
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2013, 10:11:44 AM »
To me the study is less about caliber than it is about the relative ineffectiveness of all handguns.  If you fire, expect to fire a second or third time to achieve an effect.  Don't assume it's just like Hollywood and the guy is just going to drop with the first shot.

It also humors me to no end the arguments between the 9mm camp and the .40 S&W camp when you look at a study like this.  The differences are statistically meaningless in the big picture.

Offline Burton

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 357
  • Karma: 14
  • NOVA Prepper
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2013, 05:26:43 PM »
Is the overall penetration higher on a 40 S&W vs 9mm ? The thought being most people use HP for their defensive rounds for the expansion factor. In looking at the linked video above a 40 S&W round expanded after hitting the chest and stopped a couple of mm from someones major arteries. Had this been a FMJ FN round I wonder if it would have hit the arteries?

I know the idea behind the HP is to dump more energy into the target but it seems penetration and fragmentation would be better, granted you probably couldn't get both in a pistol caliber. Wonder if something like the 5.7x28mm S5 32gr Trident bullet would perform since it fragments into 3 pieces.

Offline phuttan

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
  • Karma: 20
  • Evil CO2 Exhaler
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2013, 01:35:34 PM »
Not sure if I found this here or just randomly browsing but this is the perspective of caliper from an anesthesiologist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA

 The short of it, handguns don't kill people but 1 in 6 times and high powered rifles kill more often due to fragmentation. The video has some graphic video and pictures so be careful if your squeamish or at work ^_^

There is a reason police keep firing till the threat isn't presented any more. It isn't uncommon to put 5 or more rounds in someone  before they stop being a threat. Makes you really think about how the media reports police incidents where the officer shot the suspect multiple times.

Thanks for the link. It's an interesting video.

Pat

Offline Blu

  • Senior Survivalist
  • ****
  • Posts: 229
  • Karma: 3
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2013, 09:55:11 PM »
cool video

Offline rotrhed

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 75
  • Karma: 4
  • Just Some Guy
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2013, 03:21:58 PM »
Quote
Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.

Pretty much sums it all up, doesn't it?

I find it particularly amusing that there are an increasing number of PDs that are switching from .40 back to 9mm, too..  but not for why you might think!  They are claiming that the switch to .40 resulted in a decrease in accuracy.

*eye roll*  Only if they're trying to load .40 into a 9mm pistol, is my retort.

Offline Gulo gulo

  • Senior Survivalist
  • ****
  • Posts: 243
  • Karma: 9
  • Sic semper tyrannis
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2013, 04:23:29 PM »
Think they went to .40 for the heavier bullet which is less likely to be deflected by light barriers like cars or fences. Think of .308/7.62x39mm vs 5.56/5.45.

Offline Cooter Brown

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 913
  • Karma: 38
    • The Regular Guy Review
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2013, 05:49:40 PM »
Think they went to .40 for the heavier bullet which is less likely to be deflected by light barriers like cars or fences. Think of .308/7.62x39mm vs 5.56/5.45.

They went to the .40 cause the weenie a** FBI couldn't take the 10mm recoil.

Offline MississippiJarhead

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 688
  • Karma: 38
  • I never learned from a man who agreed with me.-RAH
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2013, 01:06:27 AM »
I have never seen combat and only pulled my weapon when clearing buildings or high risk traffic stops that were always erroneous. (NCIC data was often wrong and I doubt it's much better now.)

As a young Marine M.P. I was part of exactly one shooting investigation. The subject of the investigation was carrying a .22LR rifle. The M.P. ended up having to shoot him. One of our K-9s was struck through the testicles but otherwise unharmed. My part in the investigation? I, as a clerk for CID, went to the Vegetarian's (damn funny auto-correct) Veterinarian's office, got photos and took the testicles themselves as evidence when they were removed. Based on the appearance of the wound we assumed the .22LR was the source of the wound. Wrong, the rifle was never fired. One of the M.P.s 9mm rounds did it. The Subject was struck, to the best of my recollection, three times, including an abdomen through and through. He was in no mortal danger but the K-9s tore him up (getting shot in the balls tends to piss them off, apparently).

Now, I realize that the M.P.s were shooting FMJs but I still can't help but think that anytime I'm shooting something I want maximum damage and a 9mm will only fit the that bill if it means a much smaller more concealable weapon. Besides, hollow points don't always open up but no bullet shrinks on contact.

Would I feel vulnerable carrying a 9mm, not at all. I carry my LCP .380 on occasion (I carry Glassers in it). I do however feel slightly better with my .40S&W.

Offline Rangeboss

  • Senior Survivalist
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
  • Karma: 21
  • MSB member
    • The Shooters Podcast
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2013, 06:57:20 PM »
The article set's it out there alright.
Shoot what you are comfortable with and you will probably shoot it more accurately.
In that case, it will be more effective. It is usually about "Shot placement" more than
caliber.

Remember what Ian said, "Shoot fast, don't miss".
From Appolusa after the quick gunfight where everyone on both sides took lead, Mortenson: "That was fast". Harris:"Because everyone could shoot".

Offline The Professor

  • Tactical Skittle Assassin
  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 2733
  • Karma: 381
  • All we have to do is create another universe
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2013, 07:49:52 PM »
Caliber means little other than it must have the capability of appropriate penetration.

The only way to guarantee a rapid incapacitation is to deliver the bullet to the Central Nervous System. 

I.e., shot placement matters more than how big the rock you throw.  But, what do I know?

The Professor

Offline Mortblanc

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 378
  • Karma: 18
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2013, 11:59:15 AM »
If you read that study closely, studying all the calibers rather than just your favorites, and adhere to the use of the round on people, everyone should be carrying .32acp in a carbine!

Yep, .32 acp wins out and any center-fire rifle is better than any pistol or shotgun.

And proves the point that no one needs a magazine with more than three rounds!    Really?

Another statistical and opinion based study that proves what the author wants to prove, includes factors that prove his point and discards those that do not.

Offline CR Williams

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 467
  • Karma: 20
    • In Shadow In Light
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2013, 05:57:24 PM »
If you go for pure lethality, then I believe .22 LR has killed more people, maybe still does, than any other caliber at least in the continental US. The question has never been one of lethality, however. The question has been, still is, whether the round you fire is going to stop the person from killing you whether it actually kills them doing that or not.

The .22 generally fails consistently against that criteria, and puts into question the concept that accuracy is King. Most of us can get very accurate with .22s, eventually. So why not switch to that for counteroffensive usage?

Terminal effect, obviously. If we need to stop somebody, we need to stop them NOW, not later. That means, most times, 9mm/.38spl at the minimum, and not just that, but ammunition designed to maximize damage and penetrate enough to get to vital support or controlling areas of the body.

At the same time that it all works most of the time, everything also fails some of the time. Since any single shot presents the chance of such failure as to be catastrophic to the defender, it is in our best interest to plan and practice to fire multiple shots in a short time frame as accurately as possible. Accurate burst-fire is necessary to raise the chance of stopping the attack to as close to unity as can be done in this world. If you are not planning for a burst and the possibility of a precision follow-up shot to a known CNS target, you are not fully considering the problem and the best solution of that problem.

Offline joeinwv

  • The Bee Whisperer
  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 2579
  • Karma: 92
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2013, 07:22:57 PM »
1. Handguns are weak and ineffective compared to long guns.
2. There is minimal real world difference between handgun calibers.
3. Placement is king, penetration is queen.
4. The gun you actually carry beats the 'perfect' gun sitting in the safe.

Offline MississippiJarhead

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 688
  • Karma: 38
  • I never learned from a man who agreed with me.-RAH
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2013, 07:38:04 PM »
The gun you actually carry beats the 'perfect' gun sitting in the safe.
^THIS!

Offline CR Williams

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 467
  • Karma: 20
    • In Shadow In Light
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2013, 08:56:14 AM »
The question, sometimes, is: If you have a more effective weapon/more effective caliber weapon at home, why is it at home and not on your belt or in your pocket or in reach?

Offline Sephiroth

  • Senior Survivalist
  • ****
  • Posts: 294
  • Karma: 9
  • Peak Oil !?? Nah....
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2014, 10:33:35 AM »
Well.....

We all know that a Handgun is a secondary option. According to the FBI standards, 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP all can penetrate the 12` minimum.... So it really is up to what you shoot best. To me, it turns out to be .45 due to ir beeing a lower pressure round i guess..... But handguns are limited and one has to know that...

As a second (or third) option, a Handgun will allow a person to be in a position to defend itself. But to a limited level. For defense in the street it is the best choice. But for home, a Shotgun is what one should look for.... A rifle is overkill, but of all three options, the best one....

Out in the open ? Handgun....

At home ? Shotgun/Rifle...

Offline CR Williams

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 467
  • Karma: 20
    • In Shadow In Light
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2014, 07:43:20 AM »
But for home, a Shotgun is what one should look for.... A rifle is overkill, but of all three options, the best one....

No it's not, not categorically. Can be, but so can a shotgun.

My usual summary of handgun ballistics:

You start by assuming that all handgun rounds are anemic. (Not really as much as we think, but the hits do tend to be more survivable than one from a rifle round. This is a shorthand way of keeping that in mind.)

You also understand that 1) pretty much everything works some of the time, 2) that the recommended calibers actually work more than half the time, and 3) that nothing whatsoever works every time.

You compensate for that anemia and increase your chances of the chosen round in the chosen caliber working by planning for and training to deliver accurate bursts of fire. (As a rule of thumb, I recommend "a lot" or "until they stop trying to kill you" as a guideline to number of rounds fired in a given burst.)

We go after CNS, of course, and ideally we'd all be able to get it, but we all know how that goes in reality. The accurate burst of fire increases the chance of a CNS hit and spreads and increases damage without it so that the attack will end sooner rather than later. That's the way I currently think about this nowadays.

Offline David in MN

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 2217
  • Karma: 173
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2014, 08:32:19 AM »
I think we overthink this one a lot. I agree that "in general":

Major handgun calibers (9mm, .40, .45, .357) are on par with each other.
Long guns have more stopping power.

Beyond that, it's a user specific situation. My wife won't shoot bird shot through my 870. Buck is out of the question. So the ideal pump doesn't work for her. She also hates all the "buttons and gizmos" (her words) on an AR and doesn't want to learn to run it. Her home defense gun is a S&W 686 in .357 magnum because she likes the simplicity and likes the "big scary revolver" (again, her words). She shoots it well and is very confident with it.

I have an elderly relative who can't shoot big calibers due to arthritis. He uses a Ruger .22 for defense. Again, far from ideal but he worked to get good enough to put all 10 rounds into something real quick. And he stays up to snuff shooting bulls eye.

I agree with CR completely. If the threat hasn't stopped, repeat process. At that point software outweighs hardware. Gunslingers used to run the crap out of single action revolvers and Henry rifles.

Offline TNVolunteer

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 456
  • Karma: 24
  • Ad Vitam Paramus
Re: Defense Study: Caliber
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2014, 08:34:23 AM »
What CR says....

Just be advised it does take practice and training.