Poll

Would you buy an automatic firearm if you could?

Yes
16 (55.2%)
Maybe
9 (31%)
No
1 (3.4%)
Automatic firearms are pointless
3 (10.3%)

Total Members Voted: 27

Author Topic: Class 3 Firearm Tips  (Read 10390 times)

Offline mech7.62

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Class 3 Firearm Tips
« on: October 24, 2013, 11:59:55 AM »
I'm looking for some advice from anyone with class 3 firearm knowledge. I will be able to purchase my first class 3 firearm soon and would like to know what people think is the best value versus cost and if the drop in auto kits are good options for the AR-15 and AK-47 because I own both of them. 

Offline kckndrgn

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2013, 12:46:11 PM »
Not sure you can put a drop in auto kit into an AR-15 or AK and have a legal FA firearm.  IIRC, the receiver (firearm) must have been registered before '85(ish, forget the exact year).

So to have FA you must purchase one (and they are not cheap), you cannot convert a new mfg AR-15 to FA (unless you hold the appropriate endorsements from the BATFE.

Is that what you are asking, converting an existing SA to FA?

Offline ncjeeper

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2013, 12:47:51 PM »
You cant make a machine gun anymore. That was changed may 19th 1986. You are going to have to purchase one that was made before 1986 and on the registry. You can get into sub guns for under 10k.

Offline Jack Crabb

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2013, 01:57:22 PM »
There are drop in auto sears, DIAS, that are properly registered and transferable as NFA items. Even though they are just a couple small bits of metal, they are legally a Class 3 firearm. They may need some adjustment to run reliably in any given firearm but seem to generally work.

Value vs. cost depends on what you want to do. If you only want to turn piles of cash into piles of spent brass, then it doesn't much matter.

Given that the population of machine guns is fixed, about anything holds its value.

Offline mech7.62

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2013, 12:07:38 AM »
Thanks for the replies. I honestly didn't know if I would get any replies because I couldn't find many posts about this topic.

Yes I am talking about converting an existing SA to a FA which is possible and in the great state of Texas completely legal. I am in the process of filing the correct paperwork with an attorney for this privilege.

Let me clarify what I am trying to do. I live in an area plagued with wild hogs and I come across packs of them. I can use my SA to pick off some of them, but would benefit from a FA and some practice with burst firing.

Now, I've heard that the kits will perform suitably with some adjustments and I guess my question is a bit narrow. Based on the wear and tear that a converted SA would undergo, will it cost more to upkeep it than to buy a class 3 that was made for it. 

Also, I'm wondering what class 3 firearms I should look into that aren't so expensive. Things like kits seem to be reasonably priced and I wouldn't mind building something.

Offline cabowabo

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2013, 02:55:57 AM »
Have you thought about a Bump Fire stock?  IT would simulate Fully Automatic fire.  It would probably be cheaper

Offline mech7.62

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2013, 02:16:18 PM »
Yes, I have considered a bump stock, but to my knowledge this is only available for the AR platform and the money I could spend on the bump fire is the same as filing for class 3 firearms. For those reasons I chose to file for class 3 firearms.

Offline flippydidit

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2013, 02:37:19 PM »
Yes, I have considered a bump stock, but to my knowledge this is only available for the AR platform and the money I could spend on the bump fire is the same as filing for class 3 firearms. For those reasons I chose to file for class 3 firearms.

So.....that's not an AR platform you're holding in your avatar picture?  Besides, for the money, you could already have the bump fire stock instead of some signed papers......just my thoughts.

Offline ncjeeper

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2013, 04:21:32 PM »
Yes I am talking about converting an existing SA to a FA which is possible and in the great state of Texas completely legal. I am in the process of filing the correct paperwork with an attorney for this privilege.
Please explain a little further. Because what you are saying does not make sense to me. Is this a pre 86 weapon?

Offline mech7.62

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2013, 05:03:46 PM »
So.....that's not an AR platform you're holding in your avatar picture?  Besides, for the money, you could already have the bump fire stock instead of some signed papers......just my thoughts.

Yes, I mentioned before that I have an AR and that I considered getting a bump fire stock. My reasoning is that a bump fire can only get me one 'kind of' auto firearm, but signed papers enable me to have multiple class 3 firearms as well as multiple users. I would also be able to use suppressors on them. Additionally, I would not be limited to the AR platform which is beneficial to me because I have other platforms that can be converted like the AK.

Please explain a little further. Because what you are saying does not make sense to me. Is this a pre 86 weapon?

There are legal parts that are properly registered with the authorities which enable me to convert my firearms , but I still have to follow procedure in filing to get them and install them. That is about as descriptive as I would like to be.  I don't want to give bad advice and land someone with a felony. Please do not consider my words as final. I am using an attorney myself because I would probably get it wrong.

Offline cabowabo

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2013, 03:53:28 AM »
First I want to say I hate the law that says I can't make my own machine gun, and I sure as hell don't have thousands of dollars to spend on a machine gun. 
Now that being said, I'm not sure your understanding the law. 
The 1934 law says that you have to pay a $200 tax stamp for machine guns, SBR/SBS, and Suppressors. 
The 1986 Law says that you can not make a machine gun anymore for civilian use.  Which means if your Lower receiver on your AR was no registered prior to 1986 you can not legally turn it into a machine gun. 

Now their are ways to get around this. 
1) You can 1 purchase a bump fire stock, they cost about $300 and simulate fully automatic fire.  For now they are legal.  They have them for the AR, AK, and 10/22 Platforms.

2) Now for purely intellectual reasons because this is currently illegal.  You can file the Auto Sear down just enough so that it doesn't catch when the trigger is held down.  Now this would take away your ability to go back to semi automatic it would only be a machine gun.  And if you file to much off you will have a run away gun. 

Now that being said.  You can fire the weapon almost as fast in semi automatic as you can in fully automatic without the muzzle rising.   And in a SHTF scenario going fully automatic for most engagements would be a waste of bullets.  Their are reasons to have fully automatic weapons.  Keeping the enemies head down so your friends can advance, and CQB.  But with CQB short burst 3-4 rounds whether its bump fired or not would be the way to go. 

Offline cohutt

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2013, 05:15:55 AM »
Agree, your understanding of the laws is off or your communication of what you are actually doing is lacking.

Sounds like you are starting an llc or trust in which to register class III items?

If so, you still have to pay the tax stamp on each item, and each item must be legal within its category- ie civi full auto must be registered prior to 86, silencers can be new but  must be individually registered to own or under a separate form registered for you to make yourself. 
The legal costs to set up the entity are modest compared to anything that rhymes with full auto.  Even beater MACs now start at 3k+; the cheapest class three rifle you could likely buy would be a Ruger AC556 for $8000+, the FA version of a minii 14.
A select fire m16/ar15 variant will set you back 16, 18, $20,000++ and the registered auto-sears run pretty much the same.

So comparing Class III full auto to bump fire stocks from a price standpoint is like weighing the merits of a purchasing bicycle vs a brand new mercedes  from a cost standpoint (and from a practical usage standpoint as well imho)

relatively good pricing reference is here: http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/index.htm

As an aside I have several class III items and I own property with periodically invading hogs, but would not hunt (or defend or massacre or whatever one would classify it as) with FA even if legal (it's not in georgia).  Hogs are destructive and I absolutely detest them but the idea of opening up indiscriminately and woulding / maiming a bunch doesn't sit well with me.   Regardless of this, I'll advise that the hollywood idea of a mag dump being accurate and containable enough to score high % of kills/casualties is a joke. If you haven't fired much or any full auto I would recommend spending the $ at a range that rents them and then reconsider the idea of hunting with them.   

For Zombies on the other hand....
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 05:44:17 AM by cohutt »

Offline flippydidit

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2013, 11:05:14 AM »
Cohutt, I'm pretty sure you need to hit zombies in the head.  So an FA option still doesn't fit for zombie slaying.

Offline mech7.62

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2013, 11:27:04 AM »
Thanks for the input guys. I'm enjoying the chance to debate my options. So far it sounds like we are mostly on the same page. In Texas it is legal to take hogs in any fashion and I hunt them with dogs so if I wounded any I would be able to track them as I have before. The hog meat is either sold or eaten. And yes 3 or 4 round burst is ideal which is what I mentioned I would like to practice in my first post. Renting sounds like a great idea. It seems to me that the bump fire stock adds additional recoil to the firing hand than is already expelled by the firing motion which would translate to less control.

And in purely hypothetical terms...zombies would be facing filed sears. You don't have to kill them to mow them in half.

Offline pokeshell

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2013, 12:48:39 PM »
 Have you shot full auto? I have rented about 10 full autos at the local shop on 5 different occasions, and the "Instructor" that basically is just an expensive magazine loader, and bullet go getter.
The last time I took a client, I spent $1700 in about 1.5 hours. $120 in guns, $65 on instructor, and the rest was ammo.  This was before ammo was expensive. We paid 5% over ammo cost, purchased by the case.
I see no way that any of the guns would be good for hunting in any situation.
 

Offline mech7.62

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2013, 02:45:23 PM »
Thanks for the input, and no I have not fired full auto. I had not considered renting until after my post response, but I wasn't planning on going through ammo by the case. Short bursts have been effective in the sports I've played paintball and airsoft and I hope to try it with the real deal. I'm not set on anything so if I can't make it work I'm not going to be heartbroken.

Offline ncjeeper

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2013, 11:15:48 AM »
Shooting FA is fun but it sure turns money into noise quickly.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2013, 12:11:12 PM »
There is a very active FA crowd at my local gun club.  The debate between a registered drop in auto sear (RDIAS) and a registered receiver (RR) seems to be equivalent to that of 9mm vs. 45.  Each person makes a choice and seems happy with it.  There does seem to be an argument that the trigger holes on an RR can cause problems after hundreds of thousands of rounds and this requires very expensive repairs.  With the RDAIS you just swap to a new lower. There is also something called a lightening link but I haven't come across anyone locally who uses one.

Interestingly, the person who seems happiest purchased a Ruger AC556.  For whatever reason, it has been 100% reliable for him in all the matches.  Maybe it is because it is a piston based system it runs cleaner.  Or maybe it is simply luck that he found a great one.  But that may be another one to consider if your are looking at 5.56 caliber options.

Offline Coctailer

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2013, 12:39:30 PM »
I have 15 machine guns.
They get boring after a while. It is a total waste of money, but if you have a ton of cash, and like them, get one.

They are not good for hitting targets, survival, or hunting. Mainly blasting and giggling.

Offline mech7.62

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2013, 01:16:00 PM »
Blasting and giggling sounds good to me. I will gladly relieve you of one of those class 3's when I'm qualified haha.

Offline Coctailer

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2013, 05:14:16 PM »
Instead of spending $10,000 on a RDIAS, I would buy 11 Colt 6920s. 8)

Offline machinisttx

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2013, 01:08:17 PM »
It is currently illegal to modify a post may '86 receiver to fire full auto. It is not illegal to put a legally registered pre may '86 drop in autosear or lightning link into a post may '86 receiver. The registered drop in autosear or lightning link is a registered machinegun all by itself, and that is why this is legal. The law is stupid, and somewhat difficult to understand if you don't go to the ATF website and read it yourself.

The only exception to the law is for those possessing a valid type 02/07(IIRC, those are the correct numbers) FFL.

To make this easier to understand:
A true full auto receiver for either the AK or the AR has three pin holes in the receiver for the fire control group. Semi auto receivers have two pin holes, and thus no way to add the required autosear for controllable full auto fire. It would be illegal to drill either receiver for the third pin hole. In both cases, the receiver itself is registered as a fiream.

In the case of the drop in autosear or lightning link, no modification to the receiver is required. Both the drop in autosear and the lightning link are registered firearms. Since neither require modification of the AR receiver, and both are registered as machineguns, no new machinegun is created by putting one into a post may 86 receiver.


Your money would be far better spent on other things.

Offline flippydidit

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2013, 06:24:25 PM »
If you really want to shoot full auto, my opinion is that you have four options.  Option one-Paintball.  Option two-Airsoft.  Option three-Join the military.  Option four-Become independently wealthy.

Offline Coctailer

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2013, 06:30:34 PM »
If you really want to shoot full auto, my opinion is that you have four options.  Option one-Paintball.  Option two-Airsoft.  Option three-Join the military.  Option four-Become independently wealthy.

You forgot...... 5. Get a friend with machine guns.

Offline ncjeeper

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2013, 08:55:42 PM »
You forgot...... 5. Get a friend with machine guns.
Yep. I enjoy shooting my buddy's Thompson but 45 ammo isn't cheap anymore.

Offline Lifeon2whls

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2014, 05:21:38 PM »
I live in CA so no chance in me getting a FA firearm...if I could I would. Maybe when I move to TX. That said, you seem to be going about this a bit wrong. I know you have a lawyer and aren't disclosing everything but a little bit of googlefu turned up that you DO NOT need a Class III license in order to buy a machine gun. Here is one reference I found: http://www.shootersdepot.com/legalities.html

Also, if you do get a class III license you must use it to conduct business and cannot use it to enhance your own personal collection (like you can with a C&R license). I assume you're going through this with the lawyer but lawyers are there to take people's money and just thought I would toss this out there.

Offline ncjeeper

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2014, 12:21:41 PM »
Updates?
Current wait times on stamps are running 9-11 months.

Offline cohutt

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2014, 04:20:59 PM »
Updates?
Current wait times on stamps are running 9-11 months.

Two submitted in June, I'll be ecstatic if they are back by April

Offline ncjeeper

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2014, 08:21:11 PM »
I just ordered my first nfa item. When it comes in I will be sending in my form 4 also.

Offline Duc1

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Re: Class 3 Firearm Tips
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2014, 01:51:44 PM »
Get a can, they are addictive.  A blast to shoot (pun intended)!