Author Topic: Tianjin, China Explosion  (Read 24358 times)

endurance

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2015, 04:12:04 PM »
Material Safety Data Sheets, they're there for a good reason.
Now the MDS. They're rarely available when you need them. NFPA 704 signs are the right way to go for structures, NATO placards for materials in transit. A 704 with a line through the W might be all that would be needed in this case.

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2015, 04:21:45 PM »
Old habits die hard.  I guess it's SDS, now.

Offline Polar Bear

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2015, 05:45:05 PM »
Does China have SDS/MDS/MSDS forms?

Offline TNVolunteer

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2015, 06:03:11 PM »
Yes, they have them and in a VERY GENERAL sense use them. Whether or not it is required for them to be in place at facility that stores/manufactures/ships those products is a different matter and enforcement of same is yet another level of variance.

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2015, 06:14:11 PM »
I heard an expert on NPR yesterday, he said that China's issue isn't that they don't have standards and regulations surrounding hazardous materials, it's that corruption and lax enforcement have rendered them largely meaningless.  For example, there is a clear standard about how far away residential buildings must be from hazardous storage sites, but there were apartments less than half that distance from the epicenter.

Offline TNVolunteer

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2015, 06:17:45 PM »
^^^^^^^
Bingo.  To me it is sort of like "the Jungle" by Upton Sinclair.....at least what I can remember of it from high school.

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2015, 07:54:48 PM »
^^^^^^^
Bingo.  To me it is sort of like "the Jungle" by Upton Sinclair.....at least what I can remember of it from high school.

I think that's a perfect example. No first world country made it from a subsistence peasant economy to fully industrialized without going through what China is now. Worker safety and environmental protection always takes a backseat to economic output, until a critical mass of the population demands better.

Offline Cedar

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2015, 08:54:58 PM »
Update:
Death toll from huge China blasts rises to 112, at least 95 missing

Cedar

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2015, 09:29:32 PM »
Update:
- As many as 106 firefighters feared dead after explosions in China's Tianjin

Cedar

Offline bcksknr

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2015, 10:50:22 AM »
    This morning's news mentioned some concerns that the firefighters may not have had all of the info about the nature of the chemicals that were stored and as a result when water hit the initial fire it triggered the massive secondary explosion.

Offline Carl

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2015, 11:40:01 AM »
    This morning's news mentioned some concerns that the firefighters may not have had all of the info about the nature of the chemicals that were stored and as a result when water hit the initial fire it triggered the massive secondary explosion.

I think more than water hit the fan....

Offline TexasGirl

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2015, 01:46:23 PM »
Hey guys.....     been away on business a few weeks, and just stuck my head in here to see what's up.


One program I caught early on mentioned this facility handled containers of calcium carbide.  This would be one of the few explanations for an explosion of this magnitude.  Having worked contract in a large acetylene plant, seeing the safety videos on what a single cylinder can do, a significant volume can be this destructive. 

Calcium chloride releases acetylene gas in the presence of moisture/water.  If the original fire involved improperly stored calcium chloride, and water was applied, copious amounts of acetylene may have accumulated, resulting in such an explosion.

~TG

Offline bcksknr

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2015, 02:21:53 PM »
     T.G. you are correct. Back in the old days miners used carbide lamps clipped on their hats. They were small, usually brass and had a water reservoir and a dry carbide tank. Water was set to drip VERY slowly into the carbide chunks and the acetylene gas produced exited an orifice in a polished 3" or so reflector, facing forward. There was usually a flint wheel type sparker to ignite the gas, which burned with an intense white flame. Water and carbide are a potent explosive mix because of the acetylene gas produced.

Offline Cedar

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2015, 07:35:29 PM »
*** 27 minutes ago***
-  New explosion rocks site of Tianjin blasts (not huge like the last ones)



- Chemical warfare teams race to clear deadly sodium cyanide amid fears rain could generate new toxic gas cloud
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-17/forecast-rain-to-bring-new-toxic-gas-fears-to-tianjin/6701516

- At least 112 people are now known to have died
- The number of missing rose to 95, most of them fire fighters
- More than 720 people remained in hospital
- Thousands of locals have been evacuated from a two-kilometre exclusion zone around the site of the blasts.

Cedar

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« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 07:47:18 PM by Cedar »

Offline TNVolunteer

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #75 on: August 17, 2015, 01:07:42 PM »
We received word overnight that all port facilities handling hazardous cargoes are closed until further notice.  Not containers or tankers carrying hazardous cargoes are allow into or out of the port. It is not know when the port will be re-opened to dangerous goods.

TNV

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2015, 03:51:05 PM »
Quote
Here is a screenshot of Ruihai International Logistics's website.
They're the company responsible for the blast.
The website is down (destroyed), so I got the cached page from the Wayback Machine.
Use Chrome and take advantage of it's translating capability.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150812234808/http://www.ruihailogistics.com/

http://qz.com/478605/pick-your-poison-the-firm-behind-huge-explosions-in-tianjin-handles-all-manner-of-hazardous-chemicals/
-nkawtg

That looks like magnesium,rainey nickel, phosphorus or some sort of catalyst cascading down after the second explosion. Any bomb experts in the forum?  Could be some sort of petrol like toys, Styrofoam cups, or the containers the stuff was in on fire, but I doubt it.  I did not see barrels, solids like IBC totes, or pieces of conex boxes...strange.  Im not implying anything, but it seems like an industrial accident like this would be more of rolling mini explosions, not a MOAB style explosion.  I'm not an expert or anything, but it seems too weird not to comment.

nkawtg

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2015, 03:58:46 PM »
There is one explosion video which shows the explosion racing towards the camera, then nothing.
In the slow-mo it looks like a picket fence is getting knocked down, but on closer examination it's stacked shipping containers getting tossed into the air like sticks.

https://youtu.be/SZDStWwx-jk?t=19

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2015, 04:39:06 PM »
https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=rUDL9NE-y1A drone footage of Chinese incident.

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=_KuGizBjDXo petrol plant going up to compare...

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Dgbe9Nx-fGU  fireworks explosion to compare....

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=fufuluffQDY EOD blowing up stuff.  look at 00:50, JDAAMs bombing.  Plume is skinny and goes up quick.

google earth coordinates 39° 2'23.85"N 117°44'10.75"

endurance

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2015, 05:08:53 PM »
-nkawtg

That looks like magnesium,rainey nickel, phosphorus or some sort of catalyst cascading down after the second explosion. Any bomb experts in the forum?  Could be some sort of petrol like toys, Styrofoam cups, or the containers the stuff was in on fire, but I doubt it.  I did not see barrels, solids like IBC totes, or pieces of conex boxes...strange.  Im not implying anything, but it seems like an industrial accident like this would be more of rolling mini explosions, not a MOAB style explosion.  I'm not an expert or anything, but it seems too weird not to comment.
I'm certified in Hazmat Operations. While the root cause will take months to explore, nothing about this seems suspicious, as in a bomb or something. There's a million industrial accident with large explosions on YouTube. You'll find both similarities and differences with this one. Ultimately, there's a  lot of very nasty stuff in warehouse areas like this in the US. It's even more Wild West in China with poor labeling, segregation, isolation and safety protocols in place.

More answers will be coming in the coming weeks about what chemicals were involved and how things unfolded, but nothing about this incident makes me think it was a military action. Industrial accidents happen all the time, this one was just big and near a populated area.

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #80 on: August 19, 2015, 06:38:21 AM »
It seems the most plausible that a regular fire broke out, that ripped into containers that oxidize and react with water.  The firemen show up, quench the fire, and boom!   The drone that went in showed the devastation.  It was hard to wrap my mind around.  Those were connex boxes stacked several stories high, almost like they stacked them 40-50-60 high?  Incredible.

endurance

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #81 on: August 19, 2015, 08:27:29 AM »
Here's a handful of chemicals that are both water reactive and either emit flammable gasses or strong oxidizers:

Aluminum phosphide, ethyldichlorosilane, ferrosilicon, lithium amide, phosphorus heptasulfide, trichlorosilane

Bromine pentafluoride, bromine trifluoride, iodine pentafluoride, sodium peroxide

Then there's the discussion of the possibility of something like calcium carbide being present, which when wetted produces acetelene gas, one of the most easily ignited explosive gasses on earth.

However, at this point it's all just guesswork. If this were the US, we would have a accurate inventories of what was on sight and even if lost, we would have accurate records of deliveries. We may never know the exact chain of events in this case because the first responders are all dead, the point of ignition is so badly damaged and because accurate records likely never existed, no less off site. We should eventually get enough information about what was involved through trace analysis, but exactly how much, probably not. They might reverse engineer the damage to guess.

We have had any number of similar blasts in the US; the blast at the Texas fertilizer plant comes to mind, but for the most part we have zoning and other regulations that isolate this stuff in large quantities.  Imagine Pepcon going up in the middle of the port of Long Beach...  Despite the loss of life and property in china with this incident, it could have been a lot worse.

Offline TNVolunteer

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #82 on: August 19, 2015, 01:06:24 PM »
Here is some of what I received over the last day or two from local contacts

+++QTE+++
According to a Taiwanese TV news, the city had rain ydy. the ground is foaming, indicative of traces of cyanide. The govt is advising people not to go out. There is rain forecast again today.

But according to CCTV, the Chinese state-run media channel, they did not test higher than usual contamination in rain water at all the sampling sites (I think they mentioned 18 of them).

The Chinese minister of national safety supervision was arrested for charges not known. He is the head of safety & quality for all industries in China, a very important position. This news was disclosed by the Taiwan TV but not by CCTV.

The Chinese cleanup crew have put in place containment (like 40 TEUs at strategic places) to catch the rain water to test for contaminants before releasing into the sea.
+++UNQTE+++

Followed by this clarificaiton

+++QTE+++
Sorry, correction:

The full correct name is the State Administration of Work Safety (SAWS; Chinese: 国家安全生产监督管理总局), reporting to the State Council, is the non-ministerial agency of the Government of the People's Republic of China responsible for the regulation of risks to occupational safety and health in China.

Its Bureau Chief (not a Minister) is Yang Dongliang; December 2012 – August 2015 (under investigation)

Yang Dongliang (born January 1954) is a former Chinese politician who spent most of his career in north China's Tianjin city. As of August 2015 he was under investigation by the Communist Party's anti-corruption agency. He previously served as Director of the State Administration of Work Safety and Vice-Mayor of Tianjin. Yang is a member of the 18th Central Committee of the Communist Party of China.
+++UNQTE+++


Offline TNVolunteer

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #83 on: August 19, 2015, 01:22:44 PM »
And a bit more

+++QTE+++
....... all chemical terminals are still shut since 17 Aug. When they will be reopened is unknown, given the severity of the site incident. He heard all existing or incoming ships have been diverted away.

China is celebrating a public holiday on 3 Sept. It is for account Victory Day, the 70th anniversary of China-Japan war in World War 2. Beijing has been on a tight leash for security, and I'm sure Beijing will be now even more cautious after the explosions in Tianjin.


There have been rumours flying around in the internet that the explosions of Tianjin was the bombing attempt by the ex-Chinese Community Party Chairman Jiang Zemin to “assassinate” the present Chairman Xi Jinping and his entourage who was scheduled to visit Tianjin City for a working trip. Chairman Xi was supposed to come in by train where the explosion were detonated prematurely, ahead of his official visit. Reports have it that Chairman Xi has formally put Jiang Zemin and his family on house arrest. All propaganda wordings by Jiang Zemin on all public buildings have been taken down since Tianjin incident.
+++UnQTE+++

Interesting that....

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #84 on: August 19, 2015, 02:15:52 PM »
There have been rumours flying around in the internet that the explosions of Tianjin was the bombing attempt by the ex-Chinese Community Party Chairman Jiang Zemin to “assassinate” the present Chairman Xi Jinping and his entourage who was scheduled to visit Tianjin City for a working trip. Chairman Xi was supposed to come in by train where the explosion were detonated prematurely, ahead of his official visit. Reports have it that Chairman Xi has formally put Jiang Zemin and his family on house arrest. All propaganda wordings by Jiang Zemin on all public buildings have been taken down since Tianjin incident.

I've heard that the Chinese are suckers for conspiracy theories, tinfoil hat nonsense, and all manner of woo-woo wackiness, in general. It seems kind of incongruous with China's image as the country poised to dominate the world, but, when you think about it, the average US citizen is probably equally as nutty, and that hasn't kept us from world domination.  Maybe an irrational population is a prerequisite.

Offline Cedar

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #85 on: August 20, 2015, 04:41:41 PM »
Today:
- Masses of dead fish wash up miles from China chemical blast site. Two large explosions ripped through Ruihai International Logistics warehouse last Wednesday, leaving at least 114 dead and countless more injured. The warehouse housed around 40 different hazardous chemicals, including 700 tons of toxic sodium cyanide, 800 tons of ammonium nitrate and 500 tons of potassium. On August 19, The Tianjin Environmental Bureau said tests showed cyanide levels in nearby rivers, the sea and waste water had risen considerably in the wake of the explosion, which completely decimated the warehouse.





Cedar

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #86 on: August 20, 2015, 10:18:58 PM »
And get this, they opened the port back up dangerous goods / chemical traffic.  Didn't see that one happening until after the third of September

nkawtg

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Re: Tianjin, China Explosion
« Reply #87 on: August 27, 2015, 03:18:26 PM »
12 arrested over Tianjin blasts as toll rises.
The toll rose to 145 people killed with 28 still missing.
The 12 arrested include owners of Rui Hai International Logistics who were shown on state television last week, when they were already being held by police, "confessing" to using government connections to obtain safety permits.

http://news.yahoo.com/china-arrests-12-over-tianjin-blasts-xinhua-032254897.html

I hope they've made peace with their maker because they're not long for this world.