Author Topic: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun  (Read 254080 times)

inbox485

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #420 on: May 10, 2013, 01:11:30 PM »
Just put a bayonett lug on it so you still have and edged weapon to fall back on once you fire that one shot!
;)
 
 I'm not sure I would pick a sword instead of a single shot shotgun, depends on the configuration, and situation and what they were coming at me with.
 

We're off in the land of hypotheticals so bear with me here, but in this land where you can only own a single shot shotgun, I doubt it would have a bayonet lug. So for the sake of argument, your options are a single shot shotgun that becomes a club after one shot, or a katana. Indoors, and with no foreknowledge of how many or what tools assailants might be bringing, and given indoor conditions intimately known to me and the sorts of pinch points I could create to neutralize the benefit of an assailant's firearm, and the very real ability to recover said firearms if there are multiples trying to get through said pinch point, I would choose the katana if it was an either or proposition. Part of that has to do with the difference between a firearm where even 00 buck isn't a magic off switch, and a sword where all the determination in the world won't make your body function if the pieces aren't attached anymore. Part of it is that swords don't run out of ammo. And part of it is a sword can be used to tangle while slicing and in the case of multiples, seeing your buddy fall to pieces has a way of deterring further action. But back to reality, I wouldn't choose either or if I could just have both.

osubuckeye4

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #421 on: May 10, 2013, 02:27:11 PM »
  Someone did make a good point about the legal issues of using ANY edged weapon in ANY self defense situation.
  I'm not saying don't do it. Do what you have to to live through it, but know that if you disembowel someone, really mess someone up with a sword, hatchet, knife, etc, unless you are in a really strong castle doctrine state that hasn't been over liberalized and has more sympathy for the criminal than the victim, you will probably end up doing some prison time. People freak out when they think about knives and swords being use violently.
  They emote instead of thinking, and they come to illogical conclusions.
  That's my experience at least. I talk to people about this stuff a lot just to judge the average reaction of the public to different things. It seems that knife like things are just too scary for most people to realize that its okay to use them in self protection. They misempathize with the agressor because it seems like he got the worse end of the deal instead of realizing that he brought it on himself. I've actually had conversations where a person thought that the person shooting the intruder or agressor was ok but the guy with a knife, machete or sword or whatever was wrong.
  People have some really strange and overly complex thought processes when it comes to the right of other people to defend themselves. They are usually ok with doing whatever THEY have to to defend THEMselves, but it changes when they consider someone else's ability to defend themselves. People have some real arbitrary emotional boundries when considering the actions of others that don't really effect them personally. Over empathization.

The way I look at it (I'm the guy who wrote the legal aspect post), is this:

Most "intruder" situations are not ones where someone is kicking down a front door with a gun and looking for a confrontation with a random homeowner.

If you're incredibly unlucky and run into that situation and you do use a katana blade, I don't think there are many jurys out there who are going to send you to jail. The whole, "I didn't know the person, they had a gun, my life and my families lives were in danger..." rationale would most likely win out.



I just think that most situations where an intruder enters a home, they are entering a home they either think is unoccupied, or it's a misunderstanding (some drunk idiot goes to the wrong house and busts a window to get in or kicks a door down because s/he's not thinking).

If that type of situation happens and you shoot the person, I can see a lot of juries being sympathetic. It's dark, you just got out of bed, your contacts/glasses weren't in/on... you pulled the trigger then got in closer and realized what was going on.

If that same misunderstand situation happens and you cut the person in half with a katana blade... or chop one of their arms off with a machete, you're running a much higher possibility that you're going to jail for execessive force/unnecessary escalation of a situation.

Is that really fair? No, not really... but that's just the way it is.

I'm not saying anyone who has a katana blade or machete at their bedside should give it up... just playing devils advocate.

Offline blademan

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #422 on: May 10, 2013, 02:39:06 PM »
Understood inbox, I'd still put one on mine.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol_sword
 
Now I'm just being silly.
 
 Just a standard set of escrima bastones would be a pretty effective weapon to. I'm not talking about the ideal what you would do if, where you perfect the situation to the point that the discussion becomes even less than academic, its just pointless. I'm talking about this is what you have available in a time of need. I really don't think you "NEED" or have to have years of perfect practice to win a fight with a particular weapon, its great to have, but take the bastones for a moment. I can tell you the best way end an home invasion scenario with those: don't engage unless you have too, if you have to, hit hard, fast and keep doing it until they stop moving or run away. Sure, certain target areas and techniques are great, but the basic idea is to beat the heck out of the person.

Offline livinitup0

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #423 on: May 10, 2013, 03:03:05 PM »
even just a year ago I would have been right along with a lot of guys debating swords, knives, impromptu weapons... but after really doing research into the legal ramifications as well as the effectiveness of melee weapons, especially in a home defense situation... I really think im I'm going to be trading in quite a few blades for a used mossy.

"I was afraid for my family so I pulled the trigger" is a lot easier to explain than "I was afraid for my family so I beat him in the head with a stick/sword/axe/hammer/pool noodle until he stopped moving" ...seems a lot more effective too.

Offline blademan

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #424 on: May 10, 2013, 03:15:23 PM »
Osubuckeye:
  Cool man, I get what you are saying. There are some other factors involved here too. I have aske several lawyers about this. This was their experience either personal or vicarious:
  As a large male (more so if you have training) it is a bad idea to use a knife or sword or other killing weapon in self defense.
They are weapons that many people are unfamiliar with and are a little nervous about.
  They scare people and its a sanctimonious DA's dream case:
  "Why did you keep this item in your house?"
"Oh you kept it for defense? So you WANTED to use it on a human!"
 "You practiced killing techniques with this? So you practiced killing!"

 I'm not saying this is how it will always go and like you I'm not saying not to plan to use it or not to use it at all, but listen to the Massaad Ayoob episode Jack did recently and apply that to any home defense self defense situation.
 
   Its better to the charged by a police officer than by the emergency room. You can't appeal death. You can appeal a conviction.

   The thing is that any time you intentionally (justified or not) injure or kill someone and the police become involved, you are going to have the system investigate what you did. Like Massaad said, you have to have a pre existing procedure in place to deal with that. If you haven't listened to the episode Massaad Ayoob did with Jack, go listen to it. Its pretty pertinent to this thread. It could apply to defending yourself with pliers or a hand cannon.
 
 Livinitup: just saw your post. That's exactly whay I mean. I'm listening to Jack talk about this right now on todays show.
  Its exactly what I am trying to say here.
 Go listen. Its at the 1:49ish mark.
"Its harder to justify your need to use a knife in court that it is a gun." Quote from today's show.
 

Offline Fyrediver

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #425 on: May 16, 2013, 02:23:11 PM »
NOT the can of wasp spray that some people will recommend.  A couple was attacked in their home and the husband sprayed the assailant with Wasp spray to no effect.  He then broke a bat on the intruder.  Then he was in the fight of his life.  His wife stepped in and stabbed the intruder to death to save her husband.

If you're going to get a spray make sure it's designed to stop a human (or bear) NOT wasps. 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/intruder-killed-crossfit-trainer-identified-article-1.1346034

inbox485

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #426 on: May 16, 2013, 02:31:20 PM »
NOT the can of wasp spray that some people will recommend.  A couple was attacked in their home and the husband sprayed the assailant with Wasp spray to no effect.  He then broke a bat on the intruder.  Then he was in the fight of his life.  His wife stepped in and stabbed the intruder to death to save her husband.

If you're going to get a spray make sure it's designed to stop a human (or bear) NOT wasps. 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/intruder-killed-crossfit-trainer-identified-article-1.1346034


SMH... wasp spray reacts with exoskeletons. Unless we are in sci-fi land, those sort of intruders don't have exoskeletons. Oven cleaner can blind people, but isn't really a skin agent either. A bat works, but maybe next time use one that doesn't suck so bad. But the winner here: something with a sharp edge and a point. If I had to live in NY, I'd at least have a machete handy and would keep one of the kitchen knives hair shaving sharp.

Blain

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #427 on: May 16, 2013, 02:48:36 PM »
Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
1. Dog (toys or miniatures need not apply)
2. High quality OC pepper spray
3. Manageable length baseball bat
4. Stun gun
5. Heavy fixed blade knife
6. Rope and/or large heavy zip-ties
7. Phone

Offline blademan

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #428 on: May 17, 2013, 06:11:46 AM »
Freydiver, thanks for posting that. There are several threads similar to this on the board. Wasp spray comes up in them frequently. Though I'm sure it wouldn't be totally useless in all cases, I am dead set against it as opposed to OC or another proven purpose buit chemical deterent. I have this opinion for both effectiveness and legal reasons. "It is a Federal Offense to use this product in a way inconsistent with its labeling." Aint nobody got time for that.
 I've also seen a water gun filled with ammonia mentioned several times. Things like this almost make me angry. This is a horrible idea and for obvious reasons, not the least of all is that it puts you at risk of prosecution or civil suit. And you are pretty likely to get convicted or decided against if you end up in court.
  OC has a long histor of being accepte as a legal means of self defense in this country.
  However, I wonder if the baseball bat that broke on the guy was sound to begin with. Brings up a good point, drill with your weapons and procedures for home defense. That way you know if they work and if the weapons are in good shape.
  Bet that guy brought some flowers home the next day.

inbox485

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #429 on: May 17, 2013, 01:21:36 PM »
Freydiver, thanks for posting that. There are several threads similar to this on the board. Wasp spray comes up in them frequently. Though I'm sure it wouldn't be totally useless in all cases, I am dead set against it as opposed to OC or another proven purpose buit chemical deterent. I have this opinion for both effectiveness and legal reasons. "It is a Federal Offense to use this product in a way inconsistent with its labeling." Aint nobody got time for that.
 I've also seen a water gun filled with ammonia mentioned several times. Things like this almost make me angry. This is a horrible idea and for obvious reasons, not the least of all is that it puts you at risk of prosecution or civil suit. And you are pretty likely to get convicted or decided against if you end up in court.
  OC has a long histor of being accepte as a legal means of self defense in this country.
  However, I wonder if the baseball bat that broke on the guy was sound to begin with. Brings up a good point, drill with your weapons and procedures for home defense. That way you know if they work and if the weapons are in good shape.
  Bet that guy brought some flowers home the next day.

You should be able to lay full force into a punching bag with a bat and not have either break if they are any good. Also gives you a feel for what hitting a human is like vs hitting a baseball. Still, if you are thinking home defense, a sharp edge makes the difference between hurting and breaking somebody you need to stop ASAP. If it helps, just go back in history a tad to when firearms weren't really home defense options and lo and behold, machetes, swords, and hatchets were always preferred to sticks and clubs.

For wasp spray, oven cleaner, ammonia, etc, the liability / federal crap has to do with intent, and weapons of opportunity used under duress have never been used against the victim that I've heard of. Either way, the stuff is still crap.

Offline blademan

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #430 on: May 19, 2013, 03:40:40 PM »
Yep, that's what made me wonder about the condition of the bat. I have had some one break a pool cue on my leg without hurting me. It was cheap and I am stout. A bat is a whole other thing though.
  I'm not so worried about criminal cases brought against someone for using wasp spray or something like that so much as I am a civil suit. As a weapon of opportunity, go for it if you HAVE to. I think its pretty unlikely to get you in trouble, but it not impossible. My point is that having the right tools at hand is almost universally better than having to wing it. And its definitely better than intentionally depending on something not intended for that use just because it "feels" or "seems" like it would work as well or better than the right tool.
  And yep, I agree with you as well that sharp is usually better than blunt. +1 inbox. Get the tools meant for the job and improvise when you have to, don't use improvisation as your plan.
Stay safe people.

osubuckeye4

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #431 on: May 23, 2013, 08:37:03 AM »
For wasp spray, oven cleaner, ammonia, etc, the liability / federal crap has to do with intent, and weapons of opportunity used under duress have never been used against the victim that I've heard of. Either way, the stuff is still crap.

There is a big difference between grabbing a can of wasp spray or a bottle of ammonia that is sitting in a kitchen cabinet (reasonable in a moment of panic)... then grabbing a Super Soaker that was pre-loaded with ammonia or some other pre-made blinding solution loaded into it.

I just think that anyone will have a hard time explaining to a jury why they pre-loaded a water gun with a solution that could blind someone.

Are there circumstances where they could? (maybe a woman who had a restraining order against an ex-boyfriend/husband) Sure.

Why put oneself in that position though? Just buy a gun or a blade or some other tool that is designed for home defense and use that.

d3nni5

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #432 on: May 23, 2013, 09:22:06 AM »


So far as the bat breaking, use an aluminum softball bat.   If you break that over someone, and they keep coming....they are hopped up on something and feeling no pain. 

Other items that come to mind (not read the whole 9 pages in this thread, apologies for duplicates)...

--Fireplace poker
--maglight  (big one)
--cast iron frying pan

I'm thinking more blunt than sharp for a quicker knockdown.    Sure a good knife or machete work too, but when we discuss home defense firearms, don't we imply we want the quickest "one shot stop" with the least amount of collateral damage?   Ballbat...tried and true.

Offline PistolWhipped

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #433 on: July 03, 2013, 08:35:14 PM »
^ Bingo.

Besides, one can whip one of those smaller aluminum bats around pretty damn quick.  And anyone who would argue against a bat has never been seriously or repeatedly hit with a bat.

Just keep swinging, just keep swinging, swinging, swinging swinging, swinging . . .

Still, a gun is probably a better bet, but if that's a no-no, the old Louisville Slugger is a classic.  I've got a steel one that's probably older than me leaned in the corner.  Might add a light aluminum one in the Jeep.  That and and a cheap .38 could probably be done under $300.

Offline soupbone

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #434 on: July 07, 2013, 06:32:11 PM »
Again, "Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun". If you live in a city, state, Provence, etc. that will not allow you to own a gun, there will probably be restrictions on 'gun-like objects' [airguns, paintball guns, etc.] and some classes of weapons in general such as swords:

1] Know your local laws as to what is permitted, and what the acceptable 'rules of engagement' are.
2] Look for things with little apparent weapons potential - a stout cane or walking stick with a metal ferrule and handle, or, as mentioned, ye olde cast iron frying pan, for example. A replacement hickory rake or hoe handle with a metal ferrule could also be used - [think bayonet thrusts, blocks and counterstrokes] stuff that would normally be found in a house. "He came through the door at me so I just grabbed it...."
3] If Defense Spray - MACE, etc., is a controlled item, think about Dog Repellent, similar to what the Post Office uses. Avoid - at all cost - home made Chemical Weaponry. You will have a hard time explaining how the intruder ended up with a face full of Phosgene in court later.
4] Think about a police baton, nightstick, whatever you call them. Training material is available, and a PR-24 can be a nasty surprise to a miscreant. Personally, I keep a GI tent peg, marked "Souvenir of Annual Training 198X - Dismal Seepage Air Force Station" by my door. Hey, it's a souvenir - I never INTENDED to use it as a weapon...
5] Whatever you decide to use - practice with it. Learn some human physiology - where the weak points on the body are and how best to exploit them.

No-Gun defense has some advantages though - it forces the intruder to physically come to you, strengthening your 'self defense' claim. It also gives you more time to decide your best course of action - "Wow - it really IS your neighbor's drunken brother-in-law who mistook your house for his. I'll shoo him next door rather than poke, stab or brain him...." A gun doesn't give you that option.

People have defended themselves successfully for tens of thousands of years before the advent of firearms. Maybe not as effectively as with guns, but still, they were far from helpless. The most potent weapon is the fighter holding the chosen or available tool.

soupbone

Offline blademan

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #435 on: July 15, 2013, 09:36:02 AM »
Soupy,
 +1. That was my point too. If you are living in a place or situation where you can have whatever, then you probably do and they probably won't get their knickers in a twist if you use wasp spray on someone who was trying to force their way in your house. If you live in a more restrictive area, then they probably will. Either way its best to have the best and most effective tool at hand and have knowledge and training on how to use it. Just like Masaad Ayoob said in the show, there is going to be an aftermath to any home invasion or self defense situation.
 You plan for the aftermath before because you can't think about it during and its too late afterward.

inbox485

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #436 on: July 15, 2013, 11:40:01 AM »
To recap all this, I think the over riding thing is being willing to cause body breaking damage with whatever you can get your hands on and do so with reckless abandon. There is something I see all the time in challenging physical courses, and after a while I learned to recognize it in security footage of violent incidences. People generally give up before they fail. You see a shift in their eyes, and they let go, or they realize they don't have the resolve to actually break a person that wants to kill them, then they drop. Don't be that guy, and your odds go way up.

Offline Sushidog

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #437 on: July 15, 2013, 02:46:02 PM »
Being that I have been a sushi chef for 20 years, I have a box of very sharp and tough sushi knives at my disposal that could be pressed into service if needed. Needless to say, I am highly experienced in their use. My first choice for a throwing knife would be a thick bladed Deba Hocho (a very heavy fish cleaning knife) it will easily cut through a 1" diameter bone without hacking, just slicing. It is a high quality hand forged blade made by Masamoto (samurai sword makers) layered from Japanese white steel. Once I accidentally cut myself with it while slicing an avocado. The back of the knife stuck into the palm of my left hand. It got stuck and had to pry it out of the bone. Luckily I was cutting something soft. Had I applied moderate pressure and it would have cut my thumb clean off. I have two of these.

If a closer range encounter is needed, then I would grab a Yanagiba in each hand. These have 1 shaku (12 inches) long, pointy willow-leaf shaped, scalpel sharp blades. My finest Yanagi hocho is made by the same family that has been forging samurai swords for the Japanese imperial family for the last 800 years. It is made of the finest Japanese blue steel (the best), folded and layered so the blade is not only Rockwell 67C hardened, but it is very durable as well. Needless to say, it set me back $1,300 about 15 years ago. The plus side of using such an apparently innocuous, yet deadly weapon for self defense is that I can always tell the police I just grabbed one of my "kitchen knives I use for work" because it happened to be handy. I was just dumb luck that I was able to make tasty sushi out of my adversary.  ;)

Chip

Offline PistolWhipped

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #438 on: July 19, 2013, 11:07:07 AM »
From another chef and knife enthusiast, very nice blades man. 

I would hate to use them defensively through, it'd be a damned waste sending steel that fine to the evidence locker.  Where it will go.  And likely get beaten up and stored poorly.

I don't care who he is, he's not worth that.  Baseball bat.  Or a few "cheap" throwaway kitchen knives.  That way you don't lose your good knives if worse comes to worst.

Offline blademan

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #439 on: July 19, 2013, 11:45:08 PM »
I also use blades in my profession. I have a very nice set of Mercer cutlery and a 10" victorinox breaking knife. Among the mercers is a 6" boning knife, a 8" forged chef's knife that from painful stupid experience I know will cut humans (myself), a 8' serrated bread knife, two pairing knives, and the money knife in the bunch is the 11" ham slicer. Its an 11" scalpel.
  I realize this is silliness, but with all that at my disposal, I could have an intruder dead, broken down, chopped, steaked, boned out, sliced, diced, and garnished by the time the sirens came on.
 Seriously, they are in a very cumbersome folding case and I would never be able to get them out fast enough. For that I have clubs, myself, and a Marble's machete. And a few other things.
   Its been a good thread. Good times.

Offline JarKodiak

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #440 on: July 22, 2013, 11:05:42 AM »
I'd say taser.  The problem with a sword aside from trying to swing that around possibly in a cramped hallway (even a valid argument for rifle vs pistol), is that you're gonna get someone's blood all over you.  plus you still have to close a lot more distance.  If I was going to choose a blade, I'd probably go with something like a kukri. Plenty of lethality, but I can use it inside of cramped quarters.    Other obvious choice is a dog.

Offline Bennington1776

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #441 on: December 28, 2013, 05:56:05 PM »
Not being able to have a firearm, parish the thought.

My first thought is, well, it depends on the person using the weapon.  I would recommend something different for someone who is 80 and frail then someone who is in fighting shape and in their twenties.  My recommendation would also change depending on how else lives in the home, spouse, children - their ages and pets.

A determined criminal can fight through a chemical agent and there is the risk of self contamination.
Tazer is a good option, they have twin red dots that indicate where the barbs should deploy to.  But, they are ineffective on thick clothing or even those on certain narcotics or medical conditions (excited delirium).
Stun gun is also a good choice but its effective range is in the intimate space and therefore you better have a back up plan.
Batons, bats, swards and ax's have a standard effective range of 3-6 feet.  Unless you are in the center of a room follow up or combination blows could be problematic with walls and furniture impeding the swing path.

What ever the choice if you miss and the attacker has not run away but is now super pissed now what.

Remember the best defense is a good offence and it requires speed surprise and shock action to be most effective.  Overwhelm as many as your foes senses as possible.  Impede their sight, hearing and cause them pain to take the fight completely out of them.

So with all of that being said I would choose a 16" collapsible baton.  Thrust into the gut or sternum followed by an upper cut to the jar or throat forward and back hand swings to large mussel groups are very effective.

What ever your choice it is imperative to train train train and to know your local laws about self defense.

Offline never_retreat

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #442 on: December 28, 2013, 06:07:32 PM »
How about a rock hammer? Less likely to get stuck in the perp than an Ax. I was thinking about adding one to the truck stash.

Offline Marinesg1012

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #443 on: December 29, 2013, 12:26:55 AM »
I don't know if it was mentioned but a protection trained dog is the next best thing to a firearm, and is a perfect addition to a home/personal protection system. They may not be for everyone but my dog is trained and a member of the family, he goes every where my wife goes (for the most part) and he has probably saved them from at least one if not several encounters.

If you have the resources I would definitely suggest getting and training a dog for protection work. (notice I didnt say police dog, while there is some overlaps in training the scenarios should be based more on self defense instead of apprehension)

Offline Bolomark

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #444 on: December 29, 2013, 06:00:48 AM »
one hit.
http://www.kultofathena.com/maces.asp
let history be your guide.

Offline chickchoc

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #445 on: December 29, 2013, 06:39:58 PM »
Re protection dog --

There's another thread that thoroughly discusses the foolhardiness of improperly training a dog for protection.  A professionally trained protection dog is a working animal.  An amateur-trained protection dog is a ticking bomb with a faulty timer.

Just sayin'

Offline Marinesg1012

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #446 on: December 29, 2013, 07:46:24 PM »
Re protection dog --

There's another thread that thoroughly discusses the foolhardiness of improperly training a dog for protection.  A professionally trained protection dog is a working animal.  An amateur-trained protection dog is a ticking bomb with a faulty timer.

Just sayin'

Just like being improperly trained with any of the weapons listed in this thread or a firearm. If you have a tool you should know how to use it.

Offline 802Shawn

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #447 on: March 30, 2014, 07:40:16 AM »
Take a look a paint ball guns. You can get pepper balls (they are like pepper spray), you can also buy solid paint balls made for breaking glass and windshields for police. Tipman just released a paintball pistol (clip fed) that doesn't use the c02 cartridge until you pull the trigger. So it can sit for a long time without the worry of having no air left in the pistol. Just a couple of ideas.


FarmerJim

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #449 on: June 27, 2014, 10:20:37 PM »
I keep a Sjambok and A can of Sabre Red within 5 feet of the bed. I figure "Spray then beat."