Author Topic: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun  (Read 103020 times)

Offline blademan

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #390 on: November 20, 2012, 01:42:52 AM »
I have only browsed this thread briefly due to its lenght. I am glad it was started. This a a topic near and dear to my heart, and one I have given much though to.
   Depending on your house, I have to give the sword idea a pretty big nod. It should be chosen to your skill level and the ergonomics of the place you plan to use it. If you have the skill, nunchucks are a good choice too. The simple answer is to look at the history before guns, and all of those weapons are your answer, they were all used for home defense in some fashion or another.
  Here is what I feel is a good suggestion for this situation. I have addressed this issue to some degree in the airgun board under "are aiguns any good for self defense?"
That generated a pretty interesting discussion so if you are interested, go read that.
   
 1. The correct high power large caliber air rifle (no air pistols for lethal level defense, while they re theoretically lethal, its just not there when it comes to power.)
    Is a good tool if you learn the weapon and train with it in the same way you would with a real gun. If you doubt the power of this because I used the word air before the worfd rifle. Go to the thread I mentioned above and look for my post in which I posted you tube links and watch them. 
     Even though this is the option I will eventually take out of necessity, I agree that it suck when compared to a real gun. But keep this in mind, high power air rifles were used in feudal japan as sniper rifles because they were quieter, more powerful and reliable than the muskets of that era, and produced no smoke. This is well documented history of people dying at the end of air rifles.
    There are drawbacks to this, one is ergonomics, most of the high power large caliber guns are single shot. This is huge and not so huge a drawback. With the proper training and adaptation, such as tactical pellet holders, you could increase your reload time. Not anywhere near what you have with magazine fed or pump actions, probably faster than a break barrel shotgun or rifle.
There is a six shot rotary action .357 air rifle. It can take large hogs and deer, so two legged rats could be dealt with. It is bolt action, so it a little slow, but faster than a single shot.
  There is also a 308 rifle made in England that is a repeater, and is on the low end of what I would consider for the use and would probably opt for the more powerful single shot.
   The other drawback is that air rifles while they are very reliable, are complex and can be clumsy if one doesn't train and maintain them. The rifles I am suggesting are pcp or precharged pneumatic. This means they have a high pressure resivoir on them that has to be filled by a scuba tank or hand pump or high pressure compressor (3000 psi or more) this means that if they are not filled when you need them, you have a very ineffective club, they are generally less sturdy than real rifles. They get a respectable number of shots off a fill but this essientially means you have to worry about two different types of reloads, so theu are problematic at best for extended engagements. The .357 rifle is very big, like on the scale of a full size hunting rifle, so ergonomic and tactical issues abound. It also uses batteries and has a electronic control mechanism which is additional points of failure and complexity, but with training, you can overcome this. The 308 also has a battery for the valve and action. The single shots are carbines and pretty simple with no batteries or other unusual interface issues. These range from .357 and 9 mm to .50 cal similar to a .50ae and have tremendous muzzle energy for a pneumatic. They have taken large game in africa and other places such as hartbeest and american bison. With single aimed shots.
   So as far as air rifles, selection and training is about twice as important as it is for real guns anfd may not be for everyone once you take price into account. The cheapest new rifle in this power range is 500 or more just for the rifle, not to mention the ammo, accessories and the filling equipment. Its in the range of at least a grand for a new rifle with warranty and the pump and tank to keep it pressurized. It goes up from there. So like I said, it can be a very viable option from a lethality perspecrive, but its not without its flaws and not for everone.
   No for non ballistic options.
   First, taking and training in a martial art like escrima is a very good way to go. Just two sticks and two hands. It is a close up option, but effective.
  Cold steel makes some pretty deadly looking war clubs which would at the very least help a bad guy decide leave the premises.
 Another good way to go would be to learn to use a kitchen knife offensively and defensively. I accidentally slashed my own palm with a 9" mercer chef's knife in an incautious moment at work one day and have an extreme respect for a sharp kitchen blade. 7 sutures and a inscision 2" long and 1.5" deep into the meaty part of my hand. Didn't hurt a lot, but it got my attention. I think stabbing with it would get different pain results though.
   I prefer a slightly smaller blade, but it has intimidation value on its side.
 
 Pepper spray has advantages and disadvantages because it can easily blow back or diffuse in the air and effect you as well. Taser has a cicvilian model that the size of a small flashlight, in fact it has a light in it if I remember correctly. The registration process can be problematic for law abidinf citizens with a record, but can be worked around. (I.e. Your wife who has no record owns it and you happen to use it IN YOUR HOME to stop an attacker)
 
   I wouldn't suggest a crossbow as a primary choice due to its difficulty of use in a stressful situation. It isn't ruled out, but its down on the list.
     This is a topic I'm pretty keen on because unless I find myself ina WROL situation, a firearm is not useable for me and since that is the case, even in a WROL situation, I probably wouldn't have one or access to one at the beginning of such a situation. I have put a lot of thought into it and these are some of the results of that. I'm saving up for the .357 air rifle but may end up going with shorter .45 or .50 carbine models because of the length and price of the .357
   Its not a stand alone solution, but then again, neither is a real gun, although, a real one is 100% better.
     Good advice for someone who can't or doesn't have a gun, is to harden you dwelling as much as possible to make it as hard as possible for someone to quickly gain undectected entry to your home.  This will stop most home invasions in and of itself and will give you time to bring weapons to bear and to request assistance. Just my voluminous thooughts on the matter.
Man's mind is his basic tool of survival.
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Offline Freebirde

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #391 on: November 20, 2012, 10:52:35 AM »
I finally made it through the 14 pages, so far, and seen a few gaps.
I don't have a gun, family issues, but I'm not short on defense item or the reason to have them.    I cook, garden, and occasional landscape, so there are a lot sharp and pointy thing around.   I have bad knees so plenty of walking sticks or staffs around the house.   I do some repair work, so I keep hammers, nuts, bolts, chains, and such around.
As others said, it's mostly attitude, willingness, and doing the unexpected.   I was doing paperwork at the end of a long day on a pest control route.    I thought I heard someone trying to get in the back door.    I picked up the first thing that came to hand, a bunch of D batteries.    How would you like to give someone a good dose of adrenalin, a hand full a D batteries, and let them throw them at you.
If you are expecting trouble, keep a pot of boiling water on the stove.   "The air was dry." or "I was about to cook something".
As to the ammonia water gun, I made one and gave it to a female co worker back in 1976.    Vinegar work also.
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Offline blademan

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #392 on: November 20, 2012, 11:52:20 AM »
Amonia water guns,
   I have no argument with the efficacy of it. Or of vinegar, or as my security instructor told me when I had to work a post that forbid pepper spray, batons and guns and knives. "Carry one of those little plastic lemons or limes they sell filled with juice. Keep it in a pocket by itself so you don't have to dig for it or get it tangled in whatever else you have in there. If you have to use it and are questioned as to why you have it, say you drink tea often and you carry it because you like lemon or lime in it. (You could just as plausibly say its for water.) I was really impressed with this suggestion to the point that I used it. Never had to dose anyone but I tested it my rubbing a little in my eye and was convinced that someone not expecting it would have a dramatic attutude change if hit with it. Works super well in the home from a legal standpoint even in the most restrictive jurisdictions.
   The problem with an amonia water gun is leakage. That's probably the most common problem, cheap water guns almost always leak and the amonia is pretty caustic and could cause leaks or make them worse. Another just as likely problem is that water guns are notoriously delicate and unrelable. Not something you want to use for self defense. You could use a bottle of perfume with similar results and disadvantages.
And from a legal standpoint, even if the amonia ends the conflict, there are plenty of places in the us where someone could find themselves in touble or being decided against in a civil case for using such a option. It is better to judged by 12 than carried by six or charged by police than be charged by a hospital, but these are things to consider. With amonia, I would treat it the same way as bleach from a safety dstand point. Its deffinitely effective and creative, but given the disadvantages of it, something like an ASP key defender, or even your crappy dollar store pepper spray, or the bulb or lemon juice is a better option as a chemical deterrent.
   Again the amonia idea seems cool and I like it until I think much about it. Someone suggested it in the dog defense topic too and I forgot to respond to it there but when I saw it here, I had to say something so someone doesn't feel safe carrying this for defense. Its not the worst idea I have heard and you could do certain things to make it better, but why go to the trouble unless its the only thing available? I would rather go hand to hand than try this. I am a big guy who knows how to handle myself in a fight and can take a punch, but I HATE going hand to hand with people. This was instilled in me by a recon Marine who could fight like no bodies business and specialized in multiple martial arts in addition to being a MARINE. He told me only to engage when there is no other choice and to do everything including running to avoid it. He also taught me what to do if that wasn't possible and how to judge that. He would have liked the amonia water gun idea too.
    This a a cool thread. Keep the suggestions coming, knowledge is power.
Man's mind is his basic tool of survival.
Fear is the mind killer.

Two rules for a happy life:
1. Never sling shit at an armed man.
2. Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.

Offline David in MN

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #393 on: February 10, 2013, 03:16:05 PM »
Holy crap, there's a lot to deal with here. First and foremost, a katana will work. I own one. Get out of the mindset that you will be hacking away like a movie. The first strike with a katana is usually a forward, straight strike. Think of a lunge that extends the arms. The people who created this martial art, as I understand it, aimed for the adam's apple. If it connects, lights out. I have a katana. It would not be my first choice.

I also have a viking style throwing axe. Much better than the katana. It's small and delivers huge impact. It would not be my first choice.

Essentially, I am limiting myself to hallspace. A baseball bat, axe handle, katana, and other long weapons cannot be implemented. I would use an impact weapon with a short fulcrum. A tire iron or crow bar make sense to me. My gold standard is my ASP, which is my non-gun defense tool. Cops carry them for a reason. Assuming one could not get his hands on an ASP, I would recommend without reservation a hammer. My preference is a ball peen hammer (the old trademark of the Hell's Angels) but any framing hammer will do. Compact but forceful.

I realize we think the best way to stop someone is with a broad cutting stroke but it isn't. Guns work because of the incredible trauma to the body they cause, not because of blood loss. A dull impact weapon that causes blunt force trauma will frequently perform better than a blade. Knock someone out with a hammer and the conflict is over. Slice their arm open and you risk enraging them. As a comparison, think how much more stopped in your tracks the last time you stubbed your toe than the last time you had a cut that required stitches.

I pray none of this ever becomes necessary. Peace and love be with you all. David
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Offline Bolomark

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #394 on: February 10, 2013, 03:49:15 PM »
. A dull impact weapon that causes blunt force trauma will frequently perform better than a blade. Knock someone out with a hammer and the conflict is over. Slice their arm open and you risk enraging them. As a comparison, think how much more stopped in your tracks the last time you stubbed your toe than the last time you had a cut that required stitches.

I pray none of this ever becomes necessary. Peace and love be with you all. David
i Agree that's why its nice to have one of these just in case. mace that doesn't come in a can.
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Online soupbone

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #395 on: February 10, 2013, 05:51:11 PM »
Ah, yes, hammers - claw, ball peen, straight peen, drywall. None are "weapons", and all have a reason to be in the house or car. Just never say you were carrying it to defend yourself - that could put it in the "weapon" category, depending on the local laws. Personally, I would go for a small straight peen - hammer on one end and a dull ax head on the other. There's a lot of energy in a swing, so you don't have to sharpen it - and turn it into a "weapon".

If it hasn't been mentioned before, I would suggest an ABC Dry Powder Fire Extinguisher. It leaves a hell of a mess to clean up, and you wouldn't want to use it in an elevator, but it will stop someone in his/her/its tracks. Imagine a blast of baking soda under high pressure in the face - you can't breathe, see; you are in extreme pain from it in your eyes......... Plus to get one requires no permits, licensing, etc., and only shows that you are a careful homeowner or driver.

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Offline donaldj

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #396 on: February 11, 2013, 10:11:08 AM »
Knock someone out with a hammer and the conflict is over. Slice their arm open and you risk enraging them.

This is comparing a "perfect hit" with the hammer with a less than perfect hit with the edged weapon., then comparing the effectiveness. If I compared a .22LR hit to the chest and a 12g slug hit to the pinky toe, I, too, can conclude the .22LR has more stopping power than the 12g slug. Apples and apples please!  =)

Bottom line is it's going to be the weapon/tool you are most familiar with  and that you've trained in. Personally, I think edged weapons will allow more instantaneous damage than blunt force ones will, but it's going to boil down to familiarity and skill.

The confined space of a hallway is a good thing to consider, but with familiarity and training, you're just going to adapt the attacks you use with a particular weapon, not necessarily preclude the weapon entirely. If I was well trained in nunchaku (not just flailing them about, but the full striking and grappling characteristics of the weapon as well), then that's what I'd use in a fight. Similarly, if I was most trained in a katana, in a hallway where I could not necessarily do a ton of wide swings, I would still have the skill sets for shallow swings, appropriate cuts, thrusts, parries, etc, to make it my most viable choice. With the reach of the weapon, it will have extra advantages in keeping an attacker at distance.

Some weapons will be ill-suited for interior use, I admit that, such as a naginata or halberd. But, if someone is very well trained in the naginata, it could be adapted for an interior use (shorten the shaft, called the "e bu"), and similar modifications.

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Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #397 on: February 11, 2013, 11:16:44 AM »
The confined space of a hallway is a good thing to consider, but with familiarity and training, you're just going to adapt the attacks you use with a particular weapon, not necessarily preclude the weapon entirely. If I was well trained in nunchaku (not just flailing them about, but the full striking and grappling characteristics of the weapon as well), then that's what I'd use in a fight. Similarly, if I was most trained in a katana, in a hallway where I could not necessarily do a ton of wide swings, I would still have the skill sets for shallow swings, appropriate cuts, thrusts, parries, etc, to make it my most viable choice. With the reach of the weapon, it will have extra advantages in keeping an attacker at distance.

A great weapon for range even in a small space like a hallway would be any of the fencing weapons: the foil, epee, or sabre.  Thrusting and parrying are integral to the sport and there are places all over the US to train.  In training you will use safety blades, but authentic blades are not that hard to come by, and if you are into the sport it would not be unreasonable for you to have a replica blade.  Keep it handy mounted to your bedroom wall and you are instantly armed with a weapon you are trained to use and the ability to use it in a confined space.  Wield it with a flourish and you might deter someone as well.    Most people would not be afraid of a hammer and you have to get real close to use it, not so much with a blade.
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Offline David in MN

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #398 on: February 21, 2013, 03:11:57 PM »
This is comparing a "perfect hit" with the hammer with a less than perfect hit with the edged weapon., then comparing the effectiveness. If I compared a .22LR hit to the chest and a 12g slug hit to the pinky toe, I, too, can conclude the .22LR has more stopping power than the 12g slug. Apples and apples please!  =)

I'm sorry if I was unclear. The blunt objects have the benefit of being imprecise. Bad cuts can be ignored due to lack of trauma. Blunt force always has pain. Anyone who has had a cut stitched or cauterized knows their body can still function fine. Anyone who has been knocked out badly wakes up not knowing where they are. The idea of slicing clean through the body with a blade without years of experience is not ideal. Historically, blades were caught in the ribs, between arm bones, etc. I assure you if I hit a human with a hammer on the chest and you ran one through with a sword both would be on the ground. And the hammer doesn't get stuck in the body.

I have been a hobby armorer (I make suits of armor) for 15 years. The mythology of old weapons is amazing. There was no ideal. They all broke. You must train to orient a sword through the ribs. My very expensive hand made medieval weapons aren't forged as hard as a new handtool. I'm really not trying to be rude but most folks just can't see how weak many old weapons were. Also don't forget that knights carried maces and hammers.

This thread has way too much mythology. I've been a victim of that myself. Any of you guys test your blades against leather? My old crap leather jacket stops most edges I've tested against. In that case the sword becomes a lousy club. Also, you don't get to define the location of an attack. If there are more than one person coming at you, the fight will move. If you guys believe swords work, please test them. They may fall short.

Sorry if I come off aggressive. Not my intention. I used to think this stuff. I have swords. Real ones. They don't work for me. Best of luck to all.
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Offline Tyronedeblanco

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #399 on: February 21, 2013, 06:18:04 PM »
a very very solid broomstick like 3 ft "wooden rod".  Watched a ex military man perform some pretty nasty tactics with a 3' thick cylinder piece of wood. With basic training, you could really ruin a person's day with it.  Very cheap!!

Offline northernboy65

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #400 on: February 24, 2013, 10:51:13 AM »
Here in Canada I just got for my wife and I both steal battons I'm an transit bus driver and have been physically attacked 2 times and had no help from police except for them to tell me to let them have what they want. Not exceptable for me I'm a fighter (ex military) But here with such strict gun laws and preception of gun owners as CRAZYS I have decided on a less deadly force use there tactics on them people fear pain most so a steal bar might be enough to deter an attacker

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #401 on: February 24, 2013, 06:01:23 PM »
a very very solid broomstick like 3 ft "wooden rod".  Watched a ex military man perform some pretty nasty tactics with a 3' thick cylinder piece of wood. With basic training, you could really ruin a person's day with it.  Very cheap!!

"Hey, dude, wanna play "Dodge Log?!?" - quite effective in the narrow confines of a hallway.

 ;D

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Offline oktheniknow

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #402 on: February 25, 2013, 01:27:20 PM »
Saw some mentions of air rifles. I'm starting to research into. My interest would be one that is powerful enough to kill a deer, squirrels, and is relatively quiet. Providing some home defense of a sort would be a plus. Have a neighbor not far away and would not like to startle with the sound. Would rather not have something that relied on CO2, and would use standard air rifle ammo or ones I make myself. Maybe a night scope on it. Suggestions?

Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #403 on: February 25, 2013, 01:50:24 PM »
Saw some mentions of air rifles. I'm starting to research into. My interest would be one that is powerful enough to kill a deer, squirrels, and is relatively quiet. Providing some home defense of a sort would be a plus. Have a neighbor not far away and would not like to startle with the sound. Would rather not have something that relied on CO2, and would use standard air rifle ammo or ones I make myself. Maybe a night scope on it. Suggestions?

I, personally, would put that under the heading of "gun" and therefore not under the perview of "Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun".  Also, there are a few threads dealing with air rifles as home defense. 

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Offline blademan

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #404 on: February 27, 2013, 12:11:55 PM »
Yes, go to the air gun board and look at the posts there. Much debate. And yes and no with the air gun being "gun" if we are looking at non firearms, the they are not. But if we are looking at stuff that is completely out of the form factor of a "gun" then they are. But they can make a good addition to a system.
   Benjamin rogue .357, look it up.
Man's mind is his basic tool of survival.
Fear is the mind killer.

Two rules for a happy life:
1. Never sling shit at an armed man.
2. Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.

Offline yoshi

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #405 on: May 08, 2013, 12:15:04 PM »
Holy crap, there's a lot to deal with here. First and foremost, a katana will work. I own one. Get out of the mindset that you will be hacking away like a movie. The first strike with a katana is usually a forward, straight strike. Think of a lunge that extends the arms. The people who created this martial art, as I understand it, aimed for the adam's apple. If it connects, lights out. I have a katana. It would not be my first choice.

Not to nitpick, but I disagree with this. I'm not sure which martial art you are speaking about, but a few things:

First, not all people on the battlefield had katana. More to the point, most of the people on the battlefield were not samurai at all, they were common foot soldiers. The majority of soldiers on the battlefield never had katanas, they had yari (long spears), bisento, naginata (for women), bows/arrows, staves and guns - depending on what time period we're speaking about. I'm not saying there weren't any swords, but they weren't nearly as prevalent as you think.

Swords, especially good swords, were reserved for higher ranking samurai and generals, not foot soldiers. That said, most samurai were also on horseback and wore full armor. The Adam's Apple was not a prime target given the armor, being on a horse, and the dynamics of a battlefield. In addition, samurai generally did not gallop into the middle of a battle; they waited until the foot soldiers fought their wars of attrition and then went in to try and kill the enemy's generals.

Simply put, the target was wherever a target was available. If that meant the top of the head, it was the top of the head. If that meant the legs or under the arm, that was the target.

Another misconception that needs to be cleared up is that not all swords were the beautifully crafted pieces we have come to know and love. It was a period of war, and daimyo (feudal warlords) didn't have the luxury of commissioning one or two master craftsmen to create thousands of swords. Most of the swords - especially for those foot soldiers who were given one - were hacking and slashing implements, not refined watermelon cutters. They were trained to hack away at anything and everything in their path, not engage in Musahi-worthy beachfront fight scenes.

Lastly, let's remember that most samurai were just kids and young adults. It was extremely rare for samurai to be 50-year old seasoned fighters with hundreds of hand-to-hand combat kills to their name. Though I don't know the specific number, the average age of soldiers during this period was much closer to 19 than 40.

I don't mean to pick on you, I just want to illustrate some of the misconceptions.

Now, back to our modern reality. Yes, katana are effective weapons. However, unless you are buying a several thousand dollar sword that has a blade specifically created to hold a good edge, you will not be able to sharpen the blade of a cheap katana to hold a good edge; it will chip or break before you get it to be as sharp as a quality blade. You, just like the average Japanese foot soldier, will be hacking and slashing and not precision thrusting. Also, the materials of the tsuka are to be considered. Many factory-made katana can not withstand being used regularly and with full force. The blade will fly out of the tsuka in many shoddy products.

Which brings me to my last point, hopefully not interpreted as hostile because it's not intended to be so:

How many of you/us have actually PRACTICED using a sword against an opponent? Not just a guy who will stand there for you while you aim, but an engaged threat? I mean a moving enemy with his own weapon who is trying to attack you or someone you love. I have, every week for years and years and years and years. Let me tell you something, it's ridiculously difficult... almost prohibitively so. The only way you are going to tsuki (thrust) a sword and hit an attacker's Adam's Apple effectively during a home invasion defense scenario is if you get really, REALLY lucky. Sorry, but it's just not going to happen in my experience.

Does that mean a sword isn't a viable home defense option? Not at all, but you may want to consider alternative methods of its use rather than assuming a perfect thrust is going to work. Chances are it won't.

I realize I'm making the assumption of samurai; regardless, I think if nothing else some historical background will provide good food for thought.
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Offline blademan

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #406 on: May 08, 2013, 04:43:56 PM »
Yoshi:
  Seriously man, I'm not trying to be mean to you here at all but dude go write a book. You seem to know a lot about eido japan but are so frustrated with misconceptions that you kinda tell us how the watch works when all we wanted was the time.
  The previous poster was simply making the allusion to the fact that the katana has more than just slashing ability.
  I also disagree on your points that a katana HAS to cost $1000s or more to do the job. I will bet you my lefty that a Cold Steel Katana machete (yes soft spring steel) will kill on a thrust. It may or may not be damaged, but kill it will. And I doubt it will fly out of the handle unless you were spinning it by the handle at something over 1000 rpm.
  Also, I disagree with your point that you have to be awesome or practice all the time for years and years to do it. (May be you can't pluck someone's apple, but chest stomach, leg, all good targets to hit as long as you don't stop once you have hit them)
  Practice, sure, but don't discount determination and agression in a fight.
  My main problem with the katana (and its a really small problem) is its length, weight, and balance when considered for indoor use. Fortunately, the japanese solved this problem with the (drum roll please) wakizashi. It was a shorter version of the katan. (Often made from a broken katana) and often worn indoors when the katana was socially inappropriate or when the katana would be ineffective due to close quaters and got left at the door.
   Its, shorter, lighter, less apt to momentum caused over swing or thrust. Its less likely to fly from your hand under a given swing force too. It would be much more nimble even in a hallway and could be swung with great force in most living rooms.
   Again though, regardless of your weapon of choice, the paramount consideration here is not to leave yourself open for easy attack and to make your home very hard to access and unfriendly to intruders. I would rather avoid the fight even if I am prepared to engage.
   Wakizashi. Better in confined spaces than a katana.
   "Butterfly" swords make an interesting idea for this purpose too.
   If you "need" something smaller than that, you are probably fighting in a closet and have made a serious mistake somewhere.
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Offline osubuckeye4

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #407 on: May 08, 2013, 04:55:30 PM »

How many of you/us have actually PRACTICED using a sword against an opponent? Not just a guy who will stand there for you while you aim, but an engaged threat? I mean a moving enemy with his own weapon who is trying to attack you or someone you love. I have, every week for years and years and years and years. Let me tell you something, it's ridiculously difficult... almost prohibitively so. The only way you are going to tsuki (thrust) a sword and hit an attacker's Adam's Apple effectively during a home invasion defense scenario is if you get really, REALLY lucky. Sorry, but it's just not going to happen in my experience.

Replace sword with pretty much any object one has to swing and it becomes pretty difficult.

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #408 on: May 08, 2013, 04:58:38 PM »
Yoshi:
  Seriously man, I'm not trying to be mean to you here at all but dude go write a book. You seem to know a lot about eido japan but are so frustrated with misconceptions that you kinda tell us how the watch works when all we wanted was the time.
  The previous poster was simply making the allusion to the fact that the katana has more than just slashing ability.
  I also disagree on your points that a katana HAS to cost $1000s or more to do the job. I will bet you my lefty that a Cold Steel Katana machete (yes soft spring steel) will kill on a thrust. It may or may not be damaged, but kill it will. And I doubt it will fly out of the handle unless you were spinning it by the handle at something over 1000 rpm.
  Also, I disagree with your point that you have to be awesome or practice all the time for years and years to do it. (May be you can't pluck someone's apple, but chest stomach, leg, all good targets to hit as long as you don't stop once you have hit them)
  Practice, sure, but don't discount determination and agression in a fight.
  My main problem with the katana (and its a really small problem) is its length, weight, and balance when considered for indoor use. Fortunately, the japanese solved this problem with the (drum roll please) wakizashi. It was a shorter version of the katan. (Often made from a broken katana) and often worn indoors when the katana was socially inappropriate or when the katana would be ineffective due to close quaters and got left at the door.
   Its, shorter, lighter, less apt to momentum caused over swing or thrust. Its less likely to fly from your hand under a given swing force too. It would be much more nimble even in a hallway and could be swung with great force in most living rooms.
   Again though, regardless of your weapon of choice, the paramount consideration here is not to leave yourself open for easy attack and to make your home very hard to access and unfriendly to intruders. I would rather avoid the fight even if I am prepared to engage.
   Wakizashi. Better in confined spaces than a katana.
   "Butterfly" swords make an interesting idea for this purpose too.
   If you "need" something smaller than that, you are probably fighting in a closet and have made a serious mistake somewhere.

I wasn't even going to spend that much time typing so +1.

All I would add is that I was trained to use the extended length katanas indoors. The technique is different, but the results are devastating and I wouldn't trade it for a wakizashi. Most indoor technique completely avoids the wide cuts and slashes in favor of whittling your way in then leveraging through (this is where the properly sized katana gets real useful - and for most of the US, that means some sort of over sized katana).  Going sword vs gun indoors relies heavily on this and using the 90 degree turns in houses to get the 45 degree approaches that keep you out of the line of the barrel, and the lunge allows you to tangle (while slicing) the persons arms to prevent them from turning in on you. I strongly prefer the simplicity of getting barricaded and waiting with a long gun, but if I had a sword, I'd make do.

Offline blademan

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #409 on: May 08, 2013, 06:17:41 PM »
Thanks, inbox. Always enjoy your responses to my posts.
The reason I brought up the wakizashi is for the reason you said, training. I think that most (not all, but a whole lot) of the people who would use a sword of any kind in place of a gun for home defence, probably won't seek out that kind of training, so my thoughts were for that type and I think the waki excells there. Its just a bit more than a large knife (a lot of SCA people will sneer that at you if you bring one out, but that's their problem, if they can't get the job done with a blade that is shorter than their body length, they have some issues) and can be used more intuitively than the oversized katana, but you are right, with the right training, just about any long sharp pointy can be employed in this task.
   Thanks for the +1, pedantism especially where the sentiment is misplaced is hard for me to resist contesting. Hope I wasn't too harsh. Tried to be civil.
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Offline yoshi

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #410 on: May 09, 2013, 08:14:28 AM »
Yoshi:
  Seriously man, I'm not trying to be mean to you here at all but dude go write a book. You seem to know a lot about eido japan but are so frustrated with misconceptions that you kinda tell us how the watch works when all we wanted was the time.

Frustrated? I was not frustrated at all, not even a little bit. Is this not a discussion forum, where we get to discuss things? I thought that was the whole point; I didn't realize it was mandated for me to agree with someone simply because you "wanted the time." I'm not sure why you are so offended about my comments. I have a lot of experience in sword work and thought it might be valuable to the discussion. If nothing else I assumed it would further the conversation with other experienced individuals. I fail to see how my contribution is any different than someone posting misconceptions about swales or duck ponds and having someone else contribute their knowledge to the discussion. (Kind of like how Jack does the podcast every single day...)

The original poster made a comment: "the first strike with a katana is usually a thrust. The people who created it, as I understand it, aimed for the Adam's Apple." The first strike with a katana is actually where the opening presents itself, not a specific part of the body. You attack my counterpoint by telling me where you can hit a person with a sword. Of course you can, which was exactly MY point. Thank you for agreeing with me while being pissed at me at the same time. I don't agree with his statement, and I think misconceptions are a great way to get someone seriously hurt, so I offered a counter opinion based on my knowledge and experience. Rather than just make a statement without more information to support my thoughts, I offered some background so there is context. You can choose to disagree, but get off your high horse with your "go write a book" comments. It's unwarranted and immature.

This is the first time I've ever been yelled at for being knowledgeable about a subject. Seriously?

I'm not going to go back and forth with you, but please read your reply to my post and think about what you wrote; specifically the first part where you blast me for giving lots of information and then the second part where you give your own opinion about swords.

I'm done. Have fun... sorry to spoil your party.
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Offline David in MN

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #411 on: May 09, 2013, 02:29:13 PM »
Um, guys, please be calm. Yeah, I have a little background in kenjutsu but I'm far from expert. Schools vary on what and how they are taught and I wouldn't put down anyone for adding their opinion. I don't mind at all if my info is not 100% accurate and I add it here to get more ideas. I assume positive intent on all posts even when we call each other out.

Yoshi- man, I don't disagree with you. I was taught to lunge in and use the blade's curve to go under the opponent's edge and go for the neck because his blade will be lifted and present less danger. It worked well in a couple SCA events in college with guys who never studied the science of swordfighting.

If you guys follow my posts, you know I would prefer my ball peen hammer anyway. I'm not super hung up on edged weapons and even if I were, I prefer Viking hand axes to Asian swords (just my preference, not judgement).
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Offline blademan

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #412 on: May 09, 2013, 02:42:20 PM »
Yoshi, 1. I'm sorry to offend, it wanst my intention.
2. I wasn't partying, you didn't rain on it.
3. I'm glad that you saw where I was agreeing with you, because on some points, I was even though I didn't specifically say it.
4. "Write a book" wasn't meant to be insulting, I was being serious, you sound like you know a bit about this, and could probably write a pretty informative book on the subject.
5. Just because I disagree with you doesn't make you wrong or me right.
6. Again, I understand why you got miffed, and I hope you understand that wasn't my intention.
 
  That being said, I do agree with Yoshi that if you decide on a sword (any kind) for H.D. then you should practice with it. Even so, don't not use the sword because you haven't trained. Even a unpracticed swordsman can kill. Its mostly better than bare hands.
Man's mind is his basic tool of survival.
Fear is the mind killer.

Two rules for a happy life:
1. Never sling shit at an armed man.
2. Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.

Offline joeinwv

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #413 on: May 09, 2013, 09:59:43 PM »
So let's sum up:
- if you are trained to use a sword and have a real, non-bullshit sword, that rules
- beating someone in the head with a hammer will knock them the eff out
- pounding someone with a ball bat will change their outlook on life
- spraying someone in the face with a fire extinguisher / bug spray / mace / WD40 will make them prefer that you had not done so, all else considered equal
- expensive, large caliber, rare and somewhat complex air guns are deadly

My advice - take $75 bucks to the pawn shop and get a single shot 12ga. It's about 475% more effective than all the above.

Offline livinitup0

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #414 on: May 10, 2013, 09:19:17 AM »
So let's sum up:
- if you are trained to use a sword and have a real, non-bullshit sword, that rules
- beating someone in the head with a hammer will knock them the eff out
- pounding someone with a ball bat will change their outlook on life
- spraying someone in the face with a fire extinguisher / bug spray / mace / WD40 will make them prefer that you had not done so, all else considered equal
- expensive, large caliber, rare and somewhat complex air guns are deadly

My advice - take $75 bucks to the pawn shop and get a single shot 12ga. It's about 475% more effective than all the above.

+1

Offline osubuckeye4

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #415 on: May 10, 2013, 10:16:45 AM »
So let's sum up:
- if you are trained to use a sword and have a real, non-bullshit sword, that rules
- beating someone in the head with a hammer will knock them the eff out
- pounding someone with a ball bat will change their outlook on life
- spraying someone in the face with a fire extinguisher / bug spray / mace / WD40 will make them prefer that you had not done so, all else considered equal
- expensive, large caliber, rare and somewhat complex air guns are deadly

My advice - take $75 bucks to the pawn shop and get a single shot 12ga. It's about 475% more effective than all the above.

I'd also venture to say that you're much less likely to go to jail (in the eyes of a jury) for a knee-jerk reaction like shooting an intruder... than you are if you confront the exact same intruder in exactly the same manner and slice them in half with a katana blade.

Especailly if the intruder ends up being unarmed.

I'm not really basing this off of any legal precedence... just guessing/thinking how I would probably view something as a juror.

Offline David in MN

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #416 on: May 10, 2013, 10:52:25 AM »
So let's sum up:
- if you are trained to use a sword and have a real, non-bullshit sword, that rules
- beating someone in the head with a hammer will knock them the eff out
- pounding someone with a ball bat will change their outlook on life
- spraying someone in the face with a fire extinguisher / bug spray / mace / WD40 will make them prefer that you had not done so, all else considered equal
- expensive, large caliber, rare and somewhat complex air guns are deadly

My advice - take $75 bucks to the pawn shop and get a single shot 12ga. It's about 475% more effective than all the above.

And we all love each other and respect differences of opinion. But couldn't you get a decent pump for a little bit more... J/K
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Offline blademan

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #417 on: May 10, 2013, 12:00:50 PM »
I gave you a +1 too joe. Good point. However the thread is about lack of gun.
  If the katana is too big for some people, or too scary for those that may be judging you, something like the siket or corn knife Jack talks about often would probably scare someone into leaving and if it didn't it would really ruin someone's day.
 
  Not to belabor the point about the katana visa vi the purchase price in relation to quality, but here's an example that I think explains my thoughts on it:
  You can buy a machete for anywhere from $10 to $100. Any machete in that range will probably work at least once in a home defence situation. (Africa and South America are the final answer in the question of the combat effectiveness of a machete)
  Most low end swords (of any shape but katana-"esque" types seem prevalent) are in this same price range meaning that they are probably similar in terms of construction, quality, so will probably work about the same.
  Someone did make a good point about the legal issues of using ANY edged weapon in ANY self defense situation.
  I'm not saying don't do it. Do what you have to to live through it, but know that if you disembowel someone, really mess someone up with a sword, hatchet, knife, etc, unless you are in a really strong castle doctrine state that hasn't been over liberalized and has more sympathy for the criminal than the victim, you will probably end up doing some prison time. People freak out when they think about knives and swords being use violently.
  They emote instead of thinking, and they come to illogical conclusions.
  That's my experience at least. I talk to people about this stuff a lot just to judge the average reaction of the public to different things. It seems that knife like things are just too scary for most people to realize that its okay to use them in self protection. They misempathize with the agressor because it seems like he got the worse end of the deal instead of realizing that he brought it on himself. I've actually had conversations where a person thought that the person shooting the intruder or agressor was ok but the guy with a knife, machete or sword or whatever was wrong.
  People have some really strange and overly complex thought processes when it comes to the right of other people to defend themselves. They are usually ok with doing whatever THEY have to to defend THEMselves, but it changes when they consider someone else's ability to defend themselves. People have some real arbitrary emotional boundries when considering the actions of others that don't really effect them personally. Over empathization.
Man's mind is his basic tool of survival.
Fear is the mind killer.

Two rules for a happy life:
1. Never sling shit at an armed man.
2. Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #418 on: May 10, 2013, 12:20:27 PM »
Best home defense ****If not a gun****

Obviously, I'd rather have an AR-15 with 60 round surefire mags, a 12" barrel, and a suppressor. But with legal restraints, I have to rein that in a bit. For some, reining that in means nothing that is a firearm.

Also, as a generic "I don't know what I'll have to deal with, but this is what I'll have to do it with" type weapon, I frankly would choose a sword over a single shot gun indoors if I had to choose one or the other. Lucky me, I don't. If a single shot was the max of my legal limits, I'd have both and make do.

Offline blademan

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Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
« Reply #419 on: May 10, 2013, 01:40:13 PM »
My advice - take $75 bucks to the pawn shop and get a single shot 12ga. It's about 475% more effective than all the above.

Just put a bayonett lug on it so you still have and edged weapon to fall back on once you fire that one shot!
;)
 
 I'm not sure I would pick a sword instead of a single shot shotgun, depends on the configuration, and situation and what they were coming at me with.
 
Man's mind is his basic tool of survival.
Fear is the mind killer.

Two rules for a happy life:
1. Never sling shit at an armed man.
2. Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.