Author Topic: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry  (Read 7777 times)

Offline The Spartan Dad

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Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« on: May 31, 2014, 12:36:44 PM »
An event showed me the need for a less than lethal option of self defense in addition to concealed carry. This morning, as I was loading groceries into my vehicle, I was approached first by a rough looking character (euphemism for probable drug addict) who used my SUV to shield his approach and then by his associate (assuming) who came up on my blind side while I was telling the first one to back away and not approach. I always try to stay as alert as possible and caught the second person advancing because I swiveled my head looking for others. At this point I was feeling threatened due to their close proximity and the manner I was approached. My hand went onto the CC grip while being careful not to lift my shirt up or reveal it. The second person left immediately after being told politely but firmly to do. The first one must have seen the outline or guessed, and started ranting almost unintelligibly about how I shouldn’t own a gun and would probably shoot up a mall. I stayed firm and polite with him about not approaching further and he walked away while still ranting.

I stopped on the way home and purchased pepper spray that I can carry on my belt from now on. Although I didn’t draw and made every effort to keep my CC concealed, it still became revealed or guessed at when I felt in danger enough to reach for it. Pepper spray would have been a good option for this situation and I didn't like the situation not having some put me in. Depending on the politics or inclinations of the local DA, I realize that not calling the police opens me up to a possible brandishing charge but the same could be said if I had called. Better to have a second option available when threatened. When we lived in the city early last year, a robbery victim was shot dead in a grocery store parking lot not 2 minutes from our house at 1pm on a Sunday afternoon so always take being approached seriously no matter what time of day or night.

Offline NCFreedom

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2014, 01:30:03 PM »
An interesting situation to be in, to say the least.  I haven't ever had pepper spray, but since I can't CC and only open carry when I know I am not going to go to a public place like a big store or my daughters daycare, I might be getting me some and some for my wife. 
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Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2014, 01:43:52 PM »
glad you were looking around.  could have been worse
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Offline Kilroy

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2014, 12:22:46 PM »
Looks like you handled it about as well as you could have.  Certainly a boost to your future situation awareness ability.  Consider that many of the folks we think might need to be sprayed with pepper spray may already have experience with the stuff.  Some won't react or care if you spray them.  Some might get worse.

In any case, call the police immediately after these things.  Complain, give details. 

The reaction to your CC grip was telling.  Good for you.
Kilroy...

...was here.

Offline soupbone

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2014, 04:58:33 PM »
Again and again and again - ALWAYS have a Plan B - non-lethal and hopefully something with a standoff range. 99.9% of confrontations that you will find yourself in WILL NOT rise to the level justifying the threat or use of deadly force. A can of pepper spray MAY not stop an assault but chances are that it will, with considerably fewer consequences to you for threatening to use or showing your gun. And the failure of your Plan B would be further justification to escalate your level of violence. "I hit him with a burst of OC spray, and he kept on coming....."

Also, fully agree with the advice to report the assault - which is what these two guys did to you, by using the threat of violence.

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Offline joeinwv

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2014, 08:39:22 PM »
Sounds like these guys were within a car length of you - let's say 15'. What if you spray them and they charge you - how fast can you transition to your gun? Ever see the 20' knife vs gun demo - guy with the gun doesn't usually win.

Lot of grey areas - be careful out there.

Offline mxitman

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2014, 09:55:02 PM »
Yea close call, hard to say what they intended!... had the same thing happen to me a few years back after a Seahawk sunday night game...we park about 2-3 miles from the stadium in a free parking area. When I was almost to my truck a guy popped out from the bushes in front of the car next to me, and then this other guy came from my opposite/blind side... I CC'd even though you are not supposed to bring anything into the stadium... I never had to pull it, just rested my hand on it and yelled for both of them to back off or else they were going to have a bad night... not a fun situation at all

Offline The Professor

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2014, 11:08:01 PM »
Well, here's my take on this, worth exactly what you paid for it.

I don't see a need for pepper spray as part of your daily carry.  These are nitpicky  points, but I'm going to make them, anyway.

1.  In the situation you detailed, your CCW did exactly what you wanted it to.  You scared off both attackers.

2.  Having choices means you have to MAKE choices in a situation where the more you think the less you do.  More choices means more OODA loops.

3.  Pepper spray is great as long as, as others have pointed out, the recipient isn't: 1. upwind; 2. too close; 3. too far away; 4. immune (I can take a hit of pepper spray and still remain functional, but I eat a LOT of very hot, stupid-spicy foods.  Pepper spray burns, but it doesn't incapacitate me.)

4.  If you do have a can of pepper spray on you and you are forced to use deadly force, you had better have used the pepper spray before your firearm.  Not saying this is right, but a can of spray on your body will have an a**hole prosecutor  (or a civil lawyer suing you for everything you own) making you out to be a cop wannabe or an incompetent killer-in-waiting (he'll compare you to the police despite the fact you aren't a trained cop).  You will hear the words "Force Continuum" as if you are a trained police officer and a prosecutor or aggressive civil attorney will try to have you held to the same standards.  After all, it was YOU who chose a non-lethal device to protect yourself, yet you CHOSE to kill your attacker.  Was it just the bloodlust?  Was it incompetence?

5.  If you DO use Pepper Spray and the attacker continues attacking, you're going to have a VERY hard time convincing anyone that he continued aggressing you, unless you have lots of witnesses who are willing to give statements and show up in court (ever notice how witnesses "don't want to get involved?")

6.  If you do use pepper spray and the attacker stops, you stand a good chance of being the victim of false reporting.  I saw this one, myself.  A friend of mine left a bar one night and headed to his car.  He had a small can of OC/CN/Dye Marker spray with him and he was approached by three guys who tried to box him into the space between his car and the one parked next to him.  They told him to give him their money.  One of the guys had a sock with rocks or something heavy in it, and another had his hand in his jacket pocket like he had a gun.  When he told them he had no money, the guy with the sock hit his car, denting the hood.  He pulls his pepperspray and hits the two at the front of the car, swings his arm back around with his thumb still depressing the trigger, spraying the side of his car and hits the guy at the rear.  They all fall screaming down. He jumps in his car and drives away.  He gets all the way home and when he arrives, there are two police cruisers waiting for him.  Long story shorter: A buddy of the three jackwagons called the cops claiming my friend was the aggressor, that he came out and was looking for a fight.  He claimed his friends were sitting in front of his car, just chilling and he went off on them, spraying them with pepper spray and then punching and kicking them. 

Since my friend didn't call the cops, he was on the defensive, was cuffed and booked on Assault and Battery.  He spent one night in jail and only ended up getting off because a good police detective was able to get video from an ATM camera right across the street that showed the three guys approaching others and caught part of the incident.  They dug deeper, found the complainants had a rather long history of petty theft and thuggery and the prosecutor dropped the charges.

So, as another poster said: Call the cops and report it.

Since it's "less-lethal," you may be tempted to use it with less of a qualifier, and it may get you in trouble.

I've CCW'd for over 25 years and have never carried Tear Gas or Pepper Spray, especially after going through Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute and hearing all the horror stories of the aftermaths of cases like these.

You did right in the above case.  You had a way to defend yourself.  Keep the basic tenet of not drawing your weapon until you feel your life is in danger of death or grievous bodily harm, and you'll be in the right.

But again, that's just my opinion.

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Offline Beetlebum

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2014, 07:58:09 AM »
Well, here's my take on this, worth exactly what you paid for it.

I don't see a need for pepper spray as part of your daily carry.  These are nitpicky  points, but I'm going to make them, anyway.

1.  In the situation you detailed, your CCW did exactly what you wanted it to.  You scared off both attackers.

2.  Having choices means you have to MAKE choices in a situation where the more you think the less you do.  More choices means more OODA loops.

3.  Pepper spray is great as long as, as others have pointed out, the recipient isn't: 1. upwind; 2. too close; 3. too far away; 4. immune (I can take a hit of pepper spray and still remain functional, but I eat a LOT of very hot, stupid-spicy foods.  Pepper spray burns, but it doesn't incapacitate me.)

4.  If you do have a can of pepper spray on you and you are forced to use deadly force, you had better have used the pepper spray before your firearm.  Not saying this is right, but a can of spray on your body will have an a**hole prosecutor  (or a civil lawyer suing you for everything you own) making you out to be a cop wannabe or an incompetent killer-in-waiting (he'll compare you to the police despite the fact you aren't a trained cop).  You will hear the words "Force Continuum" as if you are a trained police officer and a prosecutor or aggressive civil attorney will try to have you held to the same standards.  After all, it was YOU who chose a non-lethal device to protect yourself, yet you CHOSE to kill your attacker.  Was it just the bloodlust?  Was it incompetence?

5.  If you DO use Pepper Spray and the attacker continues attacking, you're going to have a VERY hard time convincing anyone that he continued aggressing you, unless you have lots of witnesses who are willing to give statements and show up in court (ever notice how witnesses "don't want to get involved?")

6.  If you do use pepper spray and the attacker stops, you stand a good chance of being the victim of false reporting.  I saw this one, myself.  A friend of mine left a bar one night and headed to his car.  He had a small can of OC/CN/Dye Marker spray with him and he was approached by three guys who tried to box him into the space between his car and the one parked next to him.  They told him to give him their money.  One of the guys had a sock with rocks or something heavy in it, and another had his hand in his jacket pocket like he had a gun.  When he told them he had no money, the guy with the sock hit his car, denting the hood.  He pulls his pepperspray and hits the two at the front of the car, swings his arm back around with his thumb still depressing the trigger, spraying the side of his car and hits the guy at the rear.  They all fall screaming down. He jumps in his car and drives away.  He gets all the way home and when he arrives, there are two police cruisers waiting for him.  Long story shorter: A buddy of the three jackwagons called the cops claiming my friend was the aggressor, that he came out and was looking for a fight.  He claimed his friends were sitting in front of his car, just chilling and he went off on them, spraying them with pepper spray and then punching and kicking them. 

Since my friend didn't call the cops, he was on the defensive, was cuffed and booked on Assault and Battery.  He spent one night in jail and only ended up getting off because a good police detective was able to get video from an ATM camera right across the street that showed the three guys approaching others and caught part of the incident.  They dug deeper, found the complainants had a rather long history of petty theft and thuggery and the prosecutor dropped the charges.

So, as another poster said: Call the cops and report it.

Since it's "less-lethal," you may be tempted to use it with less of a qualifier, and it may get you in trouble.

I've CCW'd for over 25 years and have never carried Tear Gas or Pepper Spray, especially after going through Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute and hearing all the horror stories of the aftermaths of cases like these.

You did right in the above case.  You had a way to defend yourself.  Keep the basic tenet of not drawing your weapon until you feel your life is in danger of death or grievous bodily harm, and you'll be in the right.

But again, that's just my opinion.

The Professor
   

Really good analysis. I normally hear the opposite opinion and don't think I've ever heard it presented this way. You said you've carried for 25 years, have you ever had to use it, either in a case similar to this or beyond?


Offline mnotlyon

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2014, 10:17:04 AM »
Well, here's my take on this, worth exactly what you paid for it.

I don't see a need for pepper spray as part of your daily carry.  These are nitpicky  points, but I'm going to make them, anyway.

1.  In the situation you detailed, your CCW did exactly what you wanted it to.  You scared off both attackers.

2.  Having choices means you have to MAKE choices in a situation where the more you think the less you do.  More choices means more OODA loops.

3.  Pepper spray is great as long as, as others have pointed out, the recipient isn't: 1. upwind; 2. too close; 3. too far away; 4. immune (I can take a hit of pepper spray and still remain functional, but I eat a LOT of very hot, stupid-spicy foods.  Pepper spray burns, but it doesn't incapacitate me.)

4.  If you do have a can of pepper spray on you and you are forced to use deadly force, you had better have used the pepper spray before your firearm.  Not saying this is right, but a can of spray on your body will have an a**hole prosecutor  (or a civil lawyer suing you for everything you own) making you out to be a cop wannabe or an incompetent killer-in-waiting (he'll compare you to the police despite the fact you aren't a trained cop).  You will hear the words "Force Continuum" as if you are a trained police officer and a prosecutor or aggressive civil attorney will try to have you held to the same standards.  After all, it was YOU who chose a non-lethal device to protect yourself, yet you CHOSE to kill your attacker.  Was it just the bloodlust?  Was it incompetence?

5.  If you DO use Pepper Spray and the attacker continues attacking, you're going to have a VERY hard time convincing anyone that he continued aggressing you, unless you have lots of witnesses who are willing to give statements and show up in court (ever notice how witnesses "don't want to get involved?")

6.  If you do use pepper spray and the attacker stops, you stand a good chance of being the victim of false reporting.  I saw this one, myself.  A friend of mine left a bar one night and headed to his car.  He had a small can of OC/CN/Dye Marker spray with him and he was approached by three guys who tried to box him into the space between his car and the one parked next to him.  They told him to give him their money.  One of the guys had a sock with rocks or something heavy in it, and another had his hand in his jacket pocket like he had a gun.  When he told them he had no money, the guy with the sock hit his car, denting the hood.  He pulls his pepperspray and hits the two at the front of the car, swings his arm back around with his thumb still depressing the trigger, spraying the side of his car and hits the guy at the rear.  They all fall screaming down. He jumps in his car and drives away.  He gets all the way home and when he arrives, there are two police cruisers waiting for him.  Long story shorter: A buddy of the three jackwagons called the cops claiming my friend was the aggressor, that he came out and was looking for a fight.  He claimed his friends were sitting in front of his car, just chilling and he went off on them, spraying them with pepper spray and then punching and kicking them. 

Since my friend didn't call the cops, he was on the defensive, was cuffed and booked on Assault and Battery.  He spent one night in jail and only ended up getting off because a good police detective was able to get video from an ATM camera right across the street that showed the three guys approaching others and caught part of the incident.  They dug deeper, found the complainants had a rather long history of petty theft and thuggery and the prosecutor dropped the charges.

So, as another poster said: Call the cops and report it.

Since it's "less-lethal," you may be tempted to use it with less of a qualifier, and it may get you in trouble.

I've CCW'd for over 25 years and have never carried Tear Gas or Pepper Spray, especially after going through Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute and hearing all the horror stories of the aftermaths of cases like these.

You did right in the above case.  You had a way to defend yourself.  Keep the basic tenet of not drawing your weapon until you feel your life is in danger of death or grievous bodily harm, and you'll be in the right.

But again, that's just my opinion.

The Professor
   

This is pretty much what the lawyer that taught my CCW class told us.
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Offline The Professor

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2014, 01:22:57 PM »
Really good analysis. I normally hear the opposite opinion and don't think I've ever heard it presented this way. You said you've carried for 25 years, have you ever had to use it, either in a case similar to this or beyond?

Several times, but as an armed citizen, I've never had to shoot anyone (I was an LEO and in the military, as well).

Each time, luckily, either sweeping back to grip the pistol or drawing it kept it from escalating.

One time, I even stopped what appeared to be an ATM jacking.  I went to a drive-thru ATM about 11 p.m. and when I rolled down the window, a car pulled in behind me and another pulled in, facing me, in front of me. I pulled my pistol, visibly (re)charged it, and the front car backed up and peeled away.  I hadn't even put in my card, yet, so I just peeled out as if I were following him.  The second car just stayed where it was.  I called police, but the cars both got away.  Three guys were arrested about a week later pulling the same stunt at a different bank.  The outside video from the first bank tied them into both attempts.

I've had about half a dozen almost-presentations.

The worst, and most embarassing, involved a restroom at a mall (and I've never told this to anyone, before).  I stopped to do my business, which required the dropping of trousers.  Since I carried my pistol on my belt, I drew my pistol and set it in the "sling" created by my underwear stretched between my knees.  If I hadn't, anyone in the next stall could have looked down and seen a pistol basically lying on the floor, possibly within reach.

While I was otherwise occupied, someone else entered the restroom and eventually went into the stall next to me.

Turns out it was two people.  One entered the stall and his feet disappeared (he stepped up on the toilet). It took me a second to make sense of this and as I realized what he was doing, I started to look up.  I didn't have a chance to my head tilted all the way up because just then someone stepped in front of my stall door and kicked it in, screaming "GIMME YOUR WALLET MOTHER F***ER!"

Honestly, I didn't know whether to sh** or go blind, I was totally caught off guard.  I was totally stuck in the first "O" of OODA.

The gods that love comedy must've have been having a giggle that day because the door-kicker's eyes totally bugged out as he tried to back-peddle away.  While I'd like to convince myself it was for another reason, he had obviously just seen my pistol (my S&W 4506, not my. . .er. . . well, you get the idea) and changed his mind about the whole idea.

In the mean time, the guy over me had an honest-to-God leather sap that he tried to bean me with but he missed and hit the top of the other stall wall.

Door Kicker screamed "SH**! COP! RUN!" and tried to effect his escape.  Stool Stander tried to exit his stall but couldn't get the door open (they opened inward, and in his panic he couldn't figure that out).  Door Kicker tried to help who we found out later was his younger brother, by trying to push the stall door open.  Stool Stander thought that *I* was on the other side, trying to get in (I didn't say they were smart, this is what was found out after they were arrested) and was doing everything to keep the door closed, resulting in a very loud, repeated BANGING sound as both, in their panic tried to do what they wanted to the door.  After the first "BANG," Stool Stander started screaming in a voice that sounded disturbingly like a little girl who just found out that the Boogey Man was real and was, in fact, now residing under her bed.

I, on the other hand, was still stuck in the first "O" of OODA while this was going on.

Finally, Door Kicker gave up and decided to make a  break for it.  He turned and tried to sprint past the stalls and toward the door.  Unfortunately, he fell victim to Fashion as his foot slipped out of one of his high-tops (which were untied, as was the style at the time) and he proceeded to take a step in his sock-clad foot, slip on the tile floor and fall headfirst onto the corner of one of the sinks, splitting open his forehead and knocking him silly, but not unconscious. 

Stool Stander finally got the door open and made his break for it but upon seeing his big brother bleeding profusely from a gash in his forehead, started screaming his brother's name as he tried to drag him out of the restroom.

I was now entering the second "O" of OODA.  Finally.

Both kids got out of the bathroom, Stool Stander dragging Door Kicker by the scruff of his denim jacket.  Outside the restroom was a long hallway that just happened to lead one way to Mall  Administration and the other to the mall itself.

Stool Stander continued to scream "GET UP GET UP GET UP OMYGOD MY BROTHER'S BEEN SHOT" along with his brother's name while leaving a rather garish trail of blood down the hallway.

Meanwhile, I toyed with the idea of entering the "D" phase of OODA.

A couple of Mall Security guards almost literally ran into the two kids (they decided to go the WRONG way down the hallway) and took them into custody, calling for the on-duty officer assigned to the mall for assistance.

I, on the other hand, had firmly made my D(ecision) and entered the "A" phase of OODA.

I stood up, looked out the open stall door, saw that there was a broken sink and a LOT of blood in the other section of the restroom and uttered the words "What the F*** just happened?"

The two kids, despite their size, were under 18 and had thought this idea up after deciding to promote themselves from general shoplifting, purse snatching and pickpocketing.    Door Kicker had ultimately cut a 2" gash on his forehead and earned himself a nice, shiny concussion.

After interviewing the two kids, it was found out that Stool Stander had thought the banging of the door when he and his brother were wrestling over it were gunshots and when he finally got out of the stall, he saw his brother bleeding and thought that a cop had shot him.

Luckily, I was an LEO at the time but from a town about 70 miles away, so when I finally worked my way out of the stall and contacted security, we were able to work the details out.

I made two decisions that day.  The first was to start carrying in a shoulder-holster off-duty.  The second was to not use a public restroom that was not easily securable.

Technically, I guess this was another case of a Bad Guy seeing a gun and it's mere presence halting what would otherwise have been a crime.


Downside to this is, just like a cop, you start thinking that either the hand on the gun or the presentation is all it takes to stop the situation.  IMNSHO, the reason most cops get shot is they believe that the uniform and the gun are fightstoppers just by being present.  Most cops can't shoot worth sh**, regardless of what the qualification systems want you to believe and many get caught up in the mindset that their mere uniformed presence de-escalates a situation.  For the most part, this is true.  What happens, then, is they learn by experience that 99 times out of 100 (or more honestly, 999,999 times out of a million) that they don't have to shoot.  So, that millionth time results in an abberation to their experience, a total divergence from everything their experience has taught them and they get caught behind the loop.

Technically, each and every one of the times I've had to utilize a firearm (from sweeping back my covering garment only to actually drawing on someone) is a violation of what I tell people. In about half the cases, I wasn't in danger of IMMEDIATE death or grievous bodily harm,  I just suspected that the situation would escalate.  In the other half, the presence of the firearm and my apparent willingness to use it prevented it from going farther.

It's like the old lawyer argument that if you shot an aggressor in the leg and he stopped aggressing you. . .YOU were at fault because it didn't take deadly force to stop him, yet you flagrantly wielded it and used it to injure your aggressor (now referred to as "your victim").  Sounds silly, but that's life.  We, as carriers of concealed weapons have taken responsibility for our own lifes.  We also have to accept the negativity that may arise from our choices.

Back to the Original Post's situation.  The less you have to think about, the easier it is to make a decision.

OC, CS/CN, expandable batons, tasers, and any other form of "less-lethal" devices should be kept for those times when you are otherwise unable to carry a firearm, not as an additional level of force to it.  Cops are different, but mainly because of their enhanced training and the expectation that comes with it to de-escalate situations and because they often enter INTO the situation when an armed citizen should leave.

Again, just my nickel's worth.

The Professor

(Edited for grammatical error.)
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Offline mnotlyon

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2014, 03:22:51 PM »
Several times, but as an armed citizen, I've never had to shoot anyone (I was an LEO and in the military, as well).


The worst, and most embarassing, involved a restroom at a mall (and I've never told this to anyone, before).  ........


Again, just my nickel's worth.

The Professor

(Edited for grammatical error.)

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Offline Prodigy

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2014, 03:28:29 PM »
Good thoughts, and hell of a story Professor.  I always thought the idea of "if you carry a lethal option, its your responsibility to have a less-than-lethal option as well" seemed to make sense, but your thoughts throw everything on its head.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me not want to carry at all.  It's such a potential mess... ugh!  Might just stick with pepper spray and martial arts training only.  This is a topic I am continually struggling with.


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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2014, 06:51:17 PM »
Good thoughts, and hell of a story Professor.  I always thought the idea of "if you carry a lethal option, its your responsibility to have a less-than-lethal option as well" seemed to make sense, but your thoughts throw everything on its head.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me not want to carry at all.  It's such a potential mess... ugh!  Might just stick with pepper spray and martial arts training only.  This is a topic I am continually struggling with.

It's something that each person has to consider for him/herself.  I can only go from my personal experiences and what I've heard from some of the people who've also chosen such a field for study.

However, I might suggest that you NOT give up the firearm as a defensive weapon.  That handgun makes you equal to 2, 3, 4 or a dozen men, if you learn to use it properly.  Never enter into a fight, especially when there's a chance you could get seriously hurt.  Remember that your goal is to get home every night.

A can of pepper spray and all the martial arts in the world won't equal diddly against even a mediocre .45.  And I say this as a person with over 35 years of martial arts experience.

Again, my own personal opinion.

The Professor
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Offline Beetlebum

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2014, 08:00:25 PM »
You sir have just won the internet!
I know it had to be scary as hell, but to hear the story now puts a huge smile on my face. :o

+1


This is the kind of stuff that makes me not want to carry at all.  It's such a potential mess... ugh! 


Yes, and although I have had some training I am not comfortable in my proficiency. I've also recently been in a legal battle that was... stressful. I'm not interested in doing that again. But I also don't like the idea of being defenseless or unable to protect my family.

I was a bit surprised, Professor, that you said several times as a citizen. I've never found myself in a situation that I had to protect myself of family even with a stern voice. While I'm glad I haven't and hope I never do, I'm worried it has/will lead to complacency.

Guess I'll be filling out my application and doing a little light training tonight.

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2014, 10:51:06 PM »

I was a bit surprised, Professor, that you said several times as a citizen. I've never found myself in a situation that I had to protect myself of family even with a stern voice. While I'm glad I haven't and hope I never do, I'm worried it has/will lead to complacency.

Guess I'll be filling out my application and doing a little light training tonight.

As I get older, I'm finding certain truths becoming evident.

One of those is that people find themselves in certain types of situations more and more as their life continues, even though they try to avoid it.   Some people are just lucky.  Some people are just unlucky.  Some find themselves in trouble while others can't seem to get into trouble no matter how hard they try.

It's sort of difficult for me to explain, but let me put it this way:  In the 90's, I was a cop.  After the first couple of years, I couldn't even go to dinner without running into some sort of situation that only a cop could have fixed.  Vehicle accidents, couples getting into loud, boisterous arguments in public, shoplifters when I'm at WalMart.  Hell, I went outside early one morning to put something in the trash can and walked up on a couple kids breaking into cars on the street.  It never stopped.

I had a friend who was a paramedic.  Same stuff happened to him.  He even went to dinner one night with his family and two tables over a pregnant woman's water burst and he ended up assisting the birth right there in the restaurant (the owner was NOT pleased).

My mother is an animal person.  A week doesn't go by that some animal doesn't show up on her doorstep (it's like they have some sort of noteboard somewhere with a map to her house and "FREE FOOD" written above it).  If an animal is injured anywhere in her area, it eventually finds it's way to her house.

As an armed citizen, I didn't go searching for trouble.  I do not want the civil problems that arise with a civilian (or even LE) shooting.   As another example: In my younger days when I was doing my Master's degree in Criminal Justice Administration, I was working as a Probation Officer.  A friend of mine and I decided to stop by a strip joint that made the best burgers (swear, it was for the burgers).  We went in, had our burger and fries and left.  As we were heading for the car in the parking lot, some guy comes running up behind us.  We both turned around and this guy stops about 15 feet away from us.

He starts blubbering "I ain't going back to prison, man.   You can't make me." 

I didn't recognize the guy, at all, but he reaches inside his vest and we immediately draw our pistols. This guy tries to turn around, slips on the gravel and starts backstroking, as if he were swimming through the rocks, away from us, yelling all the time "I don't wanna go back!  I DON'T WANNA GO BACK!"

He was reaching for his Probation ID card, apparently.  He was on another P.O.'s caseload and had seen me in the same office building.  He thought that we were there and saw him in the strip club (it served alcohol, so he was not supposed to be on the premises) and was going to turn him in.

Longer story short, he went back to prison.  If he'd have kepth his mouth shut and not done anything he'd have gotten away with it.

But the stuff just follows you around.

The Professor
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Offline soupbone

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2014, 12:01:20 PM »
From the Professor: "What happens, then, is they learn by experience that 99 times out of 100 (or more honestly, 999,999 times out of a million) that they don't have to shoot.  So, that millionth time results in an abberation to their experience, a total divergence from everything their experience has taught them and they get caught behind the loop."

+1 for  tremendous insight.

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Offline Prodigy

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2014, 12:24:35 PM »
Good thoughts again, Professor.  I will have to give this some more serious thought.

Offline IronTeaCup

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2015, 07:37:47 PM »
MY thoughts as a vet with combat experience is if I mean to shoot you it is because it is warranted and I hope my decision is correct and I am willing to live with that. I would be filled with guilt if I had any other means to make sure that I prevented a death from happening.

I carry OC because when I carry a firearm I want options. If you sneak up and I feel threatened enough I will do what ever in necessary. If I end up taking a life in the need to end  a threat then I am alive and I would rather have life in prison due to a terrible court than be dead.

I see OC spray as a way to have a force multiplier in a place where firearms are not allowed and a method to prevent me from needing to use deadly force in situations where by law it could be legal but by ethics it is wrong.

Offline 16onRockandRoll

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2015, 10:16:17 PM »
I see the need for some form of ltl force. I thought Massad put it best when he said, "There is a lot of gray area between a kind word and a bullet." I hope I never have to use any of them, but I know at least one guy who ccws and carries pepper spray, and has had to use the spray. He would have been close to the line (either side of it) of justifying lethal force, but as it was, the cops that showed up congratulated him, and arrested the aggressor. Pretty much the end of the story for the defender. Lethal force would have been a totally different situation, even if it were justified.
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Offline The Spartan Dad

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2015, 06:35:26 AM »
Well, here's my take on this, worth exactly what you paid for it.

I don't see a need for pepper spray as part of your daily carry.  These are nitpicky  points, but I'm going to make them, anyway.

1.  In the situation you detailed, your CCW did exactly what you wanted it to.  You scared off both attackers.

2.  Having choices means you have to MAKE choices in a situation where the more you think the less you do.  More choices means more OODA loops.

3.  Pepper spray is great as long as, as others have pointed out, the recipient isn't: 1. upwind; 2. too close; 3. too far away; 4. immune (I can take a hit of pepper spray and still remain functional, but I eat a LOT of very hot, stupid-spicy foods.  Pepper spray burns, but it doesn't incapacitate me.)

4.  If you do have a can of pepper spray on you and you are forced to use deadly force, you had better have used the pepper spray before your firearm.  Not saying this is right, but a can of spray on your body will have an a**hole prosecutor  (or a civil lawyer suing you for everything you own) making you out to be a cop wannabe or an incompetent killer-in-waiting (he'll compare you to the police despite the fact you aren't a trained cop).  You will hear the words "Force Continuum" as if you are a trained police officer and a prosecutor or aggressive civil attorney will try to have you held to the same standards.  After all, it was YOU who chose a non-lethal device to protect yourself, yet you CHOSE to kill your attacker.  Was it just the bloodlust?  Was it incompetence?

5.  If you DO use Pepper Spray and the attacker continues attacking, you're going to have a VERY hard time convincing anyone that he continued aggressing you, unless you have lots of witnesses who are willing to give statements and show up in court (ever notice how witnesses "don't want to get involved?")

6.  If you do use pepper spray and the attacker stops, you stand a good chance of being the victim of false reporting.  I saw this one, myself.  A friend of mine left a bar one night and headed to his car.  He had a small can of OC/CN/Dye Marker spray with him and he was approached by three guys who tried to box him into the space between his car and the one parked next to him.  They told him to give him their money.  One of the guys had a sock with rocks or something heavy in it, and another had his hand in his jacket pocket like he had a gun.  When he told them he had no money, the guy with the sock hit his car, denting the hood.  He pulls his pepperspray and hits the two at the front of the car, swings his arm back around with his thumb still depressing the trigger, spraying the side of his car and hits the guy at the rear.  They all fall screaming down. He jumps in his car and drives away.  He gets all the way home and when he arrives, there are two police cruisers waiting for him.  Long story shorter: A buddy of the three jackwagons called the cops claiming my friend was the aggressor, that he came out and was looking for a fight.  He claimed his friends were sitting in front of his car, just chilling and he went off on them, spraying them with pepper spray and then punching and kicking them. 

Since my friend didn't call the cops, he was on the defensive, was cuffed and booked on Assault and Battery.  He spent one night in jail and only ended up getting off because a good police detective was able to get video from an ATM camera right across the street that showed the three guys approaching others and caught part of the incident.  They dug deeper, found the complainants had a rather long history of petty theft and thuggery and the prosecutor dropped the charges.

So, as another poster said: Call the cops and report it.

Since it's "less-lethal," you may be tempted to use it with less of a qualifier, and it may get you in trouble.

I've CCW'd for over 25 years and have never carried Tear Gas or Pepper Spray, especially after going through Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute and hearing all the horror stories of the aftermaths of cases like these.

You did right in the above case.  You had a way to defend yourself.  Keep the basic tenet of not drawing your weapon until you feel your life is in danger of death or grievous bodily harm, and you'll be in the right.

But again, that's just my opinion.

The Professor
   

I had a taken a forum hiatus after posting this thread and never saw your response Professor or the mall story. I appreciate the the time you took to write out the analysis and it's given me much to think about regarding less than lethal carry. Fortunately, I've had no further incidents at this store since then so it appears to be more isolated than indicative of the area.

Offline Carl

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2015, 08:31:45 AM »
I always walk with a nice ,hardwood,cane.I also carry ,but 44 special is expensive when a whack with a cane will correct the miscreants.
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Offline TNVolunteer

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2015, 10:24:30 AM »
great Thread.

^^^ Out of curiosity, how many times has the cane been used to administer a whacking?
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Offline RitaRose1945

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2015, 10:50:47 AM »
The worst, and most embarassing, involved a restroom at a mall (and I've never told this to anyone, before).


This is easily the funniest story I have ever heard.


Though I'm sure it only was in hindsight.


Offline Carl

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Re: Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2015, 01:20:42 PM »
great Thread.

^^^ Out of curiosity, how many times has the cane been used to administer a whacking?

Only once,but it was more a POKING after warning three times for him (unknown) to back off.
I pushed him away and he got up and ran,as big as I am it is tougher to justify force against others,
so I give probably one more warning than they deserve.
Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?