Author Topic: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday  (Read 82650 times)

Offline Alan Georges

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40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« on: July 30, 2014, 07:40:10 PM »
Hey y'all, Carl and I are going to try for another southeast NVIS session this Sunday at 1pm CTD on 7.250 LSB.  If it's busy, we'll inch up by 3 KHz steps until we find clear spectrum.  Feel free to jump in an join us if you can, or just listen in if you have an SSB-capible SW receiver and are so inclined.

Carl's in north LA, I'm in coastal MS, so there's a good chance of hearing us anywhere from FL to TX, maybe north into southern Illinois, or even a bit farther if Mr. Ionosphere smiles upon us.

If things work out, we may keep doing this on a regular basis.

Offline Saint-TyR

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2014, 01:30:22 PM »
Sounds like a plan...
 
Stay Safe!

Offline Carl

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2014, 02:27:10 PM »
Yep. Nothin' like blowin' the dust off the mic and talking to friends. :tinfoily:

We need a radio smiley ,but tin foil hat was close enough...

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2014, 06:33:51 PM »
OK, here's the forecast for Sunday.  Well actually it's a broad average over what things should be doing around 1800utc for the entire month of August, but I'll take it.  Remember, it's only a rough model prediction from a freebie site (voacap.com), and conditions may be quite different on any give day.

So for the date and time on 40m:


This was modeled for dipole antenna at 10m height, which is as close as the web interface options has to an NVIS set-up  100 watts.  It's centered on Baton Rouge, but you can sort of move the coverage patch around in your mind's eye to imagine what it'd be where you are.


As a what-if, here's the same for 20m:


For this one I used the 1/4 wave vertical antenna option, since that's similar to what a steep inverted V actually is.


Looking toward future attempts, if SSB doesn't work out and people want to try PSK31 we get...
40m:


and 20m:


Looks a bit better, but not everyone's set up for it.  Still, if the ionosphere cooperates on Sunday we may have this good of propagation on SSB.

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2014, 08:07:20 AM »
Bump.  Reminder, today's the day at 1pm CDT.

Anybody up for a try on 20m at 1:30?  I'll suggest 14.310, stepping up by 2.5 KHz if that frequency's in use.  Please post back here if you want to try 20m, if there's no interest we'll just stick to 40m.

Also, jump into the chat room when the time(s) draw near.  That way we can have some backup on what's working, what isn't.

Offline Carl

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2014, 11:14:43 AM »
Bump.  Reminder, today's the day at 1pm CDT.

Anybody up for a try on 20m at 1:30?  I'll suggest 14.310, stepping up by 2.5 KHz if that frequency's in use.  Please post back here if you want to try 20m, if there's no interest we'll just stick to 40m.

Also, jump into the chat room when the time(s) draw near.  That way we can have some backup on what's working, what isn't.

Good idea ,but rarely is 20 meters NVIS capable...a CQ-TSP would not be out of line.

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2014, 11:28:15 AM »
Good idea ,but rarely is 20 meters NVIS capable...
I knew you were going to say that!

See Hear you in a half hour.

Offline Carl

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2014, 12:27:07 PM »
7.250 was S-9 noise ,but successful test as Alan showed up , also a Tulsa OK,station and a station near Paris Texas were heard and pleasantry exchanged. Alan , I was at the abandoned peppermint mine about 40 feet below ground and my antenna there is a 40 meter FULL WAVE LOOP , actually 154 feet of 10 gauge wire with a 4 to 1 balun placed 4 to 6 inches below ground. Alan...you were above noise and readable till some fade came and went...certainly workable..The Tulsa and Paris? TX stations were 15 over S-9 and 5 over s-9 . Not bad for a worm gathering loop...Wet from rain the soil took more of my power than planed but excellent low profile test of a totally buried antenna.

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2014, 12:43:21 PM »
Well that was pretty cool, it sort of minimally worked.  Just talked with SCW on 20m too.  The band was extremely variable, from about 1x1 to 4x5.

Anybody else hear us chattering?

Also Carl, hats off to you and your ultra low-profile antenna. 8)   It seems to have worked well enough for folks a little closer to you, and I suspect when the ionosphere is a little more cooperative this winter it'll reach down here on the Gulf too.

I'm gonna go ponder these results.  Maybe write up something in a day or two, on what worked, what didn't, and what to try next.

Thanks to everyone who tried on this, and please post any signal reports if you were listening in, even (especially?) if you didn't hear anything.

Offline Carl

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2014, 12:54:28 PM »
For any REAL results ,we must have a baseline. This should be something to continue for a time...even if few call in,I suspect we will get some reception reports from TSP interested....maybe Jack could announce our testing ,time and frequency and as you see above...call signs are private and ,beyond antenna testing,our CQ TSP is just that...easily recognized by those who know.



Bad news though...worms pretty much marked the entire path of my buried loop antenna ...few would ever know why they came up in a trapezoid pattern in the woods though.

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2014, 01:14:58 PM »
For any REAL results ,we must have a baseline. This should be something to continue for a time...even if few call in,I suspect we will get some reception reports from TSP interested....maybe Jack could announce our testing ,time and frequency and as you see above...call signs are private and ,beyond antenna testing,our CQ TSP is just that...easily recognized by those who know.
OK, sounds like a plan.  Keep doing this at 1pm central on Sundays?  40m at 1, 20m at 1:30?


Quote
Bad news though...worms pretty much marked the entire path of my buried loop antenna ...few would ever know why they came up in a trapezoid pattern in the woods though.
Carl, there's a reason they call these things aerials, not dirtials!  Maybe Jack can work this into a future fishing show, something on how to get bait.

Offline Carl

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2014, 01:37:54 PM »
OK, sounds like a plan.  Keep doing this at 1pm central on Sundays?  40m at 1, 20m at 1:30?

Carl, there's a reason they call these things aerials, not dirtials!  Maybe Jack can work this into a future fishing show, something on how to get bait.

Guess that proves that NVIS will get your signal out of a hole and with the noise so high (S7) here the past two tests,I am encouraged that the NVIS will prove ideal for working the twilight zone area between VHF and typical HF range.When I was asked how high my antenna was by the Tulsa OK station..he asked again ...did you say MINUS 4 INCHES?

Offline Carl

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2014, 02:13:01 PM »
For way more info on WORM GRABBER ANTENNA..buried antennas check here. They are only the best choice for not being seen,but favorable first test shows promise for NVIS where antenna must be hidden.

http://archive.org/stream/jresv65Dn1p89/jresv65Dn1p89_A1b_djvu.txt

Offline armymars

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2014, 06:49:34 PM »
  If your going to go minus 4" Try a Continuous Current Distributed Antenna. You want a large H wave and a low E wave to keep losses down.

Offline redeyeprep

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2014, 07:06:59 AM »
Bad news though...worms pretty much marked the entire path of my buried loop antenna ...few would ever know why they came up in a trapezoid pattern in the woods though.

Aliens, obviously. Or maybe super intelligent worms trying desperately to communicate with us using simple geometrical shapes.   ;D

Offline Carl

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2014, 07:24:06 AM »
  If your going to go minus 4" Try a Continuous Current Distributed Antenna. You want a large H wave and a low E wave to keep losses down.

That may be a help with my soil,it was wet during first test,and I want results over time to judge,but believe I have roon within the loop to 'plant' a CCD,norally the CCD is best at a low constant level above 'ground' but as true earth ground is actually below the surface...it may prove well as the hideout is within a good size man-made hill of about 15 feet above terrain though it looks a natural hill due to tree growth etc.The occupied area is below 40 to 45 feet of soil and don't feel RF exposure is a problem as only feed-line shows any reading on field strength meter.

Offline armymars

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2014, 09:23:41 AM »
  Many years ago in April issue of QST they had an artical of an underground antenna. It was their April Fools Joke.  A novice read it and put a dipole inside a garden hose in his mother's rock garden. He worked 17 states before he was told it was a joke.

Offline Carl

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2014, 03:27:44 PM »
I am going to put up an end fed half wave for 40 meters at about 8 feet to keep over dawg teeth and my head..Plan for 78 feet and a 17 foot 6 inch counter poise...78 is a tad long but it will be BENT as my yard is 55 X 57 feet and 78 feet matched well and tuned on temporary PVC supports .

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2014, 05:49:40 PM »
... at about 8 feet
Looking forward to next Sunday, Carl.  Should give, dunno, at 10-ish dB more gain?  Ought to make things much easier, anyway.

Offline Carl

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2014, 06:38:36 AM »
Looking forward to next Sunday, Carl.  Should give, dunno, at 10-ish dB more gain?  Ought to make things much easier, anyway.

May be a better way,but remember that only a very small bit of signal is reflected at the high angle of NVIS and I may,or may not,see one as better than the other under one test and the rigors of NVIS.

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2014, 05:58:53 PM »
Hey Carl, scroll down to about slide 28 of this presentation, to the slide titled "Installation Height."
http://www.w5jck.com/nvis/W5JCK-NVIS-Antenna-Presentation.pdf

If that slide's right, you should see a pretty good jump in performance just by getting a wire up at head height.

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2014, 09:50:07 PM »
Hey folks, something's come up for tomorrow and I may not make this Sunday's 40m shout-out.  All's well, but it's looking like about a 1-in-3 chance I'll be there.  So if I'm there, I'm there, and if not, there's next week.  Either way, good luck to all on this tomorrow.

Offline Carl

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2014, 06:01:03 AM »
Hey folks, something's come up for tomorrow and I may not make this Sunday's 40m shout-out.  All's well, but it's looking like about a 1-in-3 chance I'll be there.  So if I'm there, I'm there, and if not, there's next week.  Either way, good luck to all on this tomorrow.

Still in my plan to call CQ-TSP starting 1PM,7250 or up 3 if busy each Sunday. Any contact or listener report welcome.

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2014, 11:33:38 AM »
Well the day didn't go as planned, so I'm back in.  7230 at 1pm CDT it is!

Also, will try on 20m 14.310 at 1:30, stepping up by 2.5 khz as needed.

Offline Carl

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2014, 12:40:06 PM »
Well the day didn't go as planned, so I'm back in.  7230 at 1pm CDT it is!

Also, will try on 20m 14.310 at 1:30, stepping up by 2.5 khz as needed.

The rest of us were at 7.250 and had better than last week reports with the end fed half wave at 8 feet as propagation may have improved I plan to continue with the end fed half wave (65 feet and 17 1/2 feet off center fed antenna) at the woods location..The buried loop will remain as it also is viable and only the worms know it is there.

I did a bit of house keeping in the long abandoned peppermint mine, Actually an old missile site from in the 60's and made storage for more dry goods...the constant temps 45 feet down make storage easy.

Good to hear all who checked in and some non TSP folks were directed to TSP so maybe some future survivors are in the works.

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2014, 01:48:26 PM »
Yeah, it worked out pretty well today on 40.  Three others besides Carl and myself joined in, from Oklahoma, Georgia, northern Mississippi.  I didn't get any response on 20m, but there's always next week.  Carl's above-ground antenna did well, a good 5 S-units up from last week's results with the subterranean wire.  (The worms are probably happier too.)  The band did die off a few times, briefly, but overall it seems like we've got reliable comms between coastal MS and north-west LA – and some parts even farther out.

I did a bit of house keeping in the long abandoned peppermint mine, Actually an old missile site from in the 60's and made storage for more dry goods...the constant temps 45 feet down make storage easy.
Holy cats, man!  That sounds like a BOL most folks can only dream of!

Offline Carl

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2014, 09:20:16 AM »
I will do a call tonight (Aug 16) at 7 PM if any want to try at that time ,mostly a test of antenna and radio I have in my remote site  7.250 plus 3 if busy at 7 PM with a CQ-TSP as my call....this is for identity as Alan Georges and myself agree that we do not post HAM calls and do not discuss much other than antenna,conditions,and general HAM talk .

Answer the call as you like,listeners welcome with their reports to be in this thread..we average 15 minutes or so

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2014, 04:49:59 PM »
Will be there!

Offline Carl

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2014, 05:35:53 PM »
CQ CONTEST...I hate contests and they choke up the bands where little can happen in regular communications,you would think these contesters would already know what they are capable of.Just a bunch of people who just want to be able to say they "DID" you and do nothing in the way of promoting radio or friendship. Reminds me of the people who say "NEIGH"

Offline armymars

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Re: 40m NVIS for this coming Sunday
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2014, 05:46:56 PM »
  I tried to call you all last Sunday, but didn't hear anyone. To late today I have a net at 0000z so I won't be there. The FoF2 in Michigan is 5.963 at 23:30z. It should be a little higher where you are. If contests get on your nervices, try 60 meters or one of the other WARC bands. 73