Author Topic: primer issue with the 650 Dillon  (Read 7915 times)

Offline shambo

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primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« on: October 20, 2014, 09:32:26 PM »
I just swapped calibers on my  new 650 to 223 REM.  As I am cycling through the cases I have found that some of the cases that are de-primed  and sized on station one don't stay de-primed.  It would seem that the old primer stays stuck in the de-capper pin and is pulled back into the old primer pocket partially when the shell plate is pulled away from the tool head. then when the shell plate progresses to stage two the partially restarted old primer is  pushed back into the primer pocket by the waiting new primer.  I have already extended out the de-capping pin as far as possible.  Have anyone else run into this problem?  I ordered new de-capper pins at least just to have extras. Two is one, one is none.

Offline DrJohn

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2014, 05:21:11 AM »
Is it poosible the ammo has a berdan primer pocket?  If so you cannot reload that on your Dillion.

Offline armymars

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2014, 02:56:57 PM »
  Sometimes the tip of the de-primer pin is to pointy. You may have to touch it up a bit with a file to make it rounder or even flat. I had a friend who had the opposite problem. His muzzle loader needed a sharp firing pin so the primer would stay on it for reloading.

Offline DrJohn

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2014, 03:22:30 PM »
How do you know it is pressing out the old primer?

Offline shambo

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2014, 06:15:06 PM »
How do you know it is pressing out the old primer?
I got into checking the decapped shell by not pushing forward on the handle so as to seat the new primer,  and I would find the old just pushed out primer  just barely stuck into the primer pocket.  The only way that would happen is the old primer would be stuck on the end of the de-capper pin  and would be drawn back into the primer pocket on the up stroke of the handle.

Offline never_retreat

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2014, 07:45:20 PM »
Yep the old primer is being pulled back up into the pocket.
Check the end of the de capping pin. Make sure its straight, smooth, and rounded on the end.
Replace or polish if necessary.

Offline DrJohn

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2014, 05:31:39 AM »
Yep the old primer is being pulled back up into the pocket.
Check the end of the de capping pin. Make sure its straight, smooth, and rounded on the end.
Replace or polish if necessary.

^^^^

I bet Dillon would replace the pin no charge.

Offline Mortblanc

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2014, 11:23:21 AM »
In 45 years of reloading I have never had a primer stick to the de-capping pin unless the primer was pierced, and I never remember a primer not falling free once it was clear of the fired case.

What I have seen is many de-capping pins get shoved up into the die to the point that they do not punch out the old primer.  Most dies have this ability as a safety feature to keep from constantly breaking/bending de-capping pins.

Sometimes it will look like the de-capping pin is protruding far enough but is just short of its intended length. 

This will happen most often when a Berdan primer gets mixed with the Boxer primers, which is a distinct possibility when recycling range pickup brass in .223.

It might even happen when the crimp on the primer pocket of military brass is too heavy.   

Offline The Professor

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2014, 12:08:47 PM »

It might even happen when the crimp on the primer pocket of military brass is too heavy.   

This is what I was going to ask.

I had problems when I first started, 25 years ago, reloading military brass.  The problem was similar.  I didn't realize that I had to use a special tool to deprime (the first time) military crimped brass.

My problem was that I had mixed all my 5.56 and .223 brass together not knowing there might be an issue.

While some may point at the decapping pin (if it IS the pin, there'd be an obvious anomaly that would cause the primer to stick), I'd first look at the crimping.

The Professor

Offline shambo

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2014, 06:24:19 PM »
I ended  up breaking the de-capper pin the same night as I wrote  my first question on the forum.  It is a RCBS die and I am pretty sure as good as Dillon's customer service is I don't think I'll ask for warranty.  Lee de-capper dies will scoot up when under too  much pressure.  This RCBS is not like that.  I got new pins on order from Brownells.  I hope that takes care of it. 

Offline DrJohn

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2014, 06:56:42 AM »
Well since you didn't state they were not dillon dies, I wrongfully assumed they were, so sorry.

Offline Mortblanc

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2014, 08:08:40 AM »
I ended  up breaking the de-capper pin the same night as I wrote  my first question on the forum.  It is a RCBS die and I am pretty sure as good as Dillon's customer service is I don't think I'll ask for warranty.  Lee de-capper dies will scoot up when under too  much pressure.  This RCBS is not like that.  I got new pins on order from Brownells.  I hope that takes care of it.

Most of my RCBS dies and Lee dies use an identical de-capping pin set up, except for the stem and pin itself.  In the Lee set stem and pin are a one piece unit an with the RCBS the pin is removable from the stem.  They are both held in position by a locking bolt through the top of the die, and they will scoot up if not secured properly.

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2014, 03:48:27 PM »
If it is an RCBS die then you can adjust how far down the decapping pin extends below the die base.  It may be that it is not extended far enough to completely push out the primers, especially the military crimped ones.  I broke so many dang RCBS decapping pins from the 1 in 1,000 Berdan case that sneaks in, or when the pin works loose and catches on the case head.  If you call RCBS they will send you free package of decapping pins.  I've still got packages of both styles (straight pin, and pin with larger circular head) in both sizes.

I've switched to using a Lee Universal decapping die for all my brass.  I think all brands offer something similar.  I always decap, wash in wet stainless media, then resize and trim (rifle brass) anyway, so using the Universal die is actually more efficient for this cycle.  As Mortblanc mentioned, the Lee decapping pin is a solid shaft held by a friction collet and if it runs into solid brass it is pushed up through the collet rather than breaking off.  You want the collet tight enough to decap military primers but still allow the decapping shaft to be pushed through when it hits a solid head.

Offline shambo

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2014, 08:02:02 PM »
I replaced the decapping pin and the problem still persists.  The anvil in the spent primer will grip into the primer decapper pin and will be pulled back to the opening  of the primer pocket and will stick just enough  to cycle to stage two and be pushed back into the pocket with the new primer.  It was never  an  issue with the old RCBS rock chucker due to the way the shell is slid into the shell holder.  or was never noticed due to the shell sliding off of the shell holder.  I  may try to sand the pin more flat and see if that helps.

Offline DrJohn

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2014, 07:19:23 AM »
I would try to just do a resize- decap process on a batch of say 50.  Maybe your decapping pin is set too far up, and not pushing the old primers all the way out?

Offline Mortblanc

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2014, 09:44:16 AM »
Find a small boy that wants to make a couple of bucks and have him run all the brass through the resizing/decapping die as a separate step.

Put the resizing die in the Rockchucker and see if it pops out the primer.  If it works there it should work in the Dillon and the problem is not the die/pin.

Go back and read the Dillon instructions and your RCBS instructions and recalibrate the loader step by step.

If you changed the decapping pin you should have eliminated to problem if is was decapping pin related. 

This is an adjustment/setup problem, not an equipment issue.

Somewhere in this infernal machine you have something at the wrong setting.

Offline shambo

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2014, 06:04:27 PM »
I would try to just do a resize- decap process on a batch of say 50.  Maybe your decapping pin is set too far up, and not pushing the old primers all the way out?
The de-capper pin is set all the way out.  I can see that the anvil part of the old primer will grip the pin.  It doesn't punch a  hole in the anvil  part , just will dent it enough to cause it to grip the tip of the pin.  My friend said that to try to adj the pin till it just pushes out the primer.  I don't see how that will help, but I will try it anyway. 

Offline shambo

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2014, 06:13:31 PM »
Find a small boy that wants to make a couple of bucks and have him run all the brass through the resizing/decapping die as a separate step.

Put the resizing die in the Rockchucker and see if it pops out the primer.  If it works there it should work in the Dillon and the problem is not the die/pin.

Go back and read the Dillon instructions and your RCBS instructions and recalibrate the loader step by step.

If you changed the decapping pin you should have eliminated to problem if is was decapping pin related. 

This is an adjustment/setup problem, not an equipment issue.

Somewhere in this infernal machine you have something at the wrong setting.
I am pretty sure it is a pin related issue.  I cant see how  it could be a Dillon press adjustment problem.  I have been using CCI  primers.  Maybe I f I try a different primer?

Offline Mortblanc

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2014, 12:43:20 PM »
Take the die out of the Dillon.

Put it in a single stage press.

Make sure the pin extends enough to clear the primer through the shell holder.  My dies require .250" of pin protrusion from the bottom of the die for proper spent primer ejection if the die strikes the shell holder in the resizing cycle.

If it is the pin it will behave the same in a single stage press as in the Dillon and reveal itself as the nasty perpetrator of the horrid crime.

If it does not hang onto the primer it is an adjustment problem in the press.



Offline armymars

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2014, 06:52:13 PM »
  Some where in the back of my mind I remember I had to adjust my Dillon 500 so the die just pushed a little on the shell plate to get the primer to drop. It's been so long I had forgotten it.

Offline TexasGirl

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2014, 09:48:22 PM »
I replaced the decapping pin and the problem still persists.  The anvil in the spent primer will grip into the primer decapper pin and will be pulled back to the opening  of the primer pocket and will stick just enough  to cycle to stage two and be pushed back into the pocket with the new primer.  It was never  an  issue with the old RCBS rock chucker due to the way the shell is slid into the shell holder.  or was never noticed due to the shell sliding off of the shell holder.  I  may try to sand the pin more flat and see if that helps.

Well, if you decide to go back to the RCBS and ditch that finicky Dillion, you can always send it to me.  I'd love a 650!

 ;D

~TG

Offline DrJohn

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2014, 06:48:29 AM »
Well, if you decide to go back to the RCBS and ditch that finicky Dillion, you can always send it to me.  I'd love a 650!

 ;D

~TG

^^^
who wouldn't!

Offline shambo

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2014, 08:00:53 PM »
As I  was sitting and pondering the problem with the spent primers getting pulled back up into the primer pocket.  It only does it on my reloaded 223 cases.  Not to the 9mm or 45acp's.  The only thing I did differently to these cases is on some of the brass were military crimped primers.  I carefully separated these and used the RCBS primer pocket swedger.  They were still pretty tight hand priming with  my Lee hand primer.  So I used my tapered hand reamer and chamfered these primer pockets.  They were easier to hand prime for sure.  Its possible that these are the cases giving m e trouble.  I think I will remove these cases that seem to reprime  with the old primers and see if that takes care of it. 

So far Texas Girl, the Dillon is not so much for finicky is it doesn't tolerate fools in new operators like me.  The problem may have been caused my  me.  I like it just fine.  But if I do get tired of it I'll drop you a  line. 

Offline shambo

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2014, 07:00:51 PM »
I was talking to a friend and avid reloader using Dillon products.  He suggested using the Dillon DE-capper re-sizer die.  The De-capper pin is not ridged.  It is backed up with a heavy spring and when the old primer pops out, the old primer is some what launched out due to the pin being pushed by a spring.  I'll give a try and let  you all  know what happens.

Offline Carl

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Re: primer issue with the 650 Dillon
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2014, 07:25:32 AM »
The de-capper pin is set all the way out.  I can see that the anvil part of the old primer will grip the pin.  It doesn't punch a  hole in the anvil  part , just will dent it enough to cause it to grip the tip of the pin.  My friend said that to try to adj the pin till it just pushes out the primer.  I don't see how that will help, but I will try it anyway.

Dillon dies are made by C and H and are LONGER than other brands to work in the Dillon machines, You really can't blame the '650 if you aren't running the recommended accessories.Dillon makes fine equipment ,but they are not built to a common standard as RCBS,LEE,and others.

Don't get me wrong , I use other dies in my Dillon equipment (and experienced your same problem,and other issues) as moost dies are SHORT to work in a Dillon system.