Author Topic: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation  (Read 28713 times)

Offline ModernSurvival

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What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« on: September 11, 2014, 10:41:39 AM »
In episode 1421 http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/feedback-9-8-14  I suggested that may be if a nation like Estonia can create "digital citizens" perhaps people in general could create a virtual nation, Let's for fun call it Libertas.  (liberty in Latin)

That such a nation might create its own currency using the most advanced bitcoin style protocols to make sure all exchanges are 100% anonymous but the same tech might make voting open and public while still protecting identities.  That any "tax" would really be a fee for voluntary services or functions.  If you want more listen to that show.  My question though is what would you put into said nations constitution.

Here is my initial list

All actual government is the people in and of themselves, decisions on what to do are based on voting.  Voting may require much higher than 50% majority to get something done, perhaps more like 80%, anyway that is TBD.  As is the how and what of any voting necessary.  Many times there will be no need to vote, those that fund shit and get it done, get it done.  Doacracy.

All members must pledge adherence to the non aggression principle and denounce violence except in defense of life, liberty and or property. 

Any and all "taxes" must be 100% voluntary, this would likely include "buying citizenship" at the beginning, something done by free choice, once a citizen anything else funded is 100% voluntary.

No one is born a citizen, children of citizens are recognized as such until a "age of decision" (TBD) and at said age can choose to become a citizen or not.  No one is compelled by birth or geography.

No national borders, any land held is held as dictated by the non virtual nation where the land is held (for now).  The nation itself likely won't hold land, only its citizens.  The key is no one is prohibited from joining Libertas as a citizen based on their current nation of residence or citizenship.

How the hell would all this work, I don't know.  For now let's just play with the idea and see where it goes.  I am also not dictator of libertas, my ideas are equal to any and all ideas equal to mine. 
Jack Spirko

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Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2014, 11:03:13 AM »
For a representative government, rather than career congress critters and senators, I'd have a compulsory 2 year term of service that every able bodied adult must complete at some time in their life.  Let's not get distracted with the logistics, but the idea is two-fold:

1) it negates consolidation of power
2) all citizens who serve are educated on the process of governing and can better empathize with the real problems facing their nation

So it keeps the assclowns from being worse assclowns and raises the political-situational-awareness of Joe Sixpack

Offline ModernSurvival

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2014, 11:09:50 AM »
@smurf,

Personally I don't think that would apply to a virtual nation at all, why even have senators and elected officials?
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Offline Coctailer

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2014, 11:23:43 AM »
What would be the advantage of joining the virtual nation while still being bound to the physical nation your feet are on? Same with Estonian digi-citizen.
I guess you could have a bank account that the gov couldn't steal from?

One wouldn't be able to avoid the taxes of the physical nation, and the new means of exchange could be used without forming a nation.

I am definitely interested.
I enjoyed episode 1421. I may need to go back and re-listen.

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2014, 11:36:41 AM »
@smurf,

Personally I don't think that would apply to a virtual nation at all, why even have senators and elected officials?

Sorry - I thought you meant as in "hypothetical".

As Coctailer said, unless I can defect there and gain personal liberty or other material improvement I'm unsure how that would work.

Offline ModernSurvival

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2014, 11:37:53 AM »
Coctailer, There are of LOT of TBDs but yes you just hit on some there.

So in Libertas you exchange say Libercoin (dumb name just an example) with other citizens.  This is Libertas business and only applies as such.  Just like if you earn income in France you DO NOT pay US taxes on it.  You ONLY pay US Tax if you repatriate the money, (bring it home).

Now of course most governments would refuse to recognize the nation of Libertas, but so what at first.  It isn't like you tell them about your Libertas business, um,  :P what happens in Libertas stays in Libertas.  LOL

But think of it this way, say in time you got 100 million people from all over the world to say they are Libertas Citizens.  How do other nations at that point claim you are not legitmate.  You nation is democratic and voluntary, no one is compelled to join yet 100 million are part of it.  They can't invade you, you have no land.

Right now the no land is seen as a disadvantage, makes sense for now.  The key is how does the problem become the solution?  How does this become an "Alternative to a New Global Nation"?

How do you use the fact that you can't be invaded to your advantage, as most nations spend huge amounts of money on that problem it seems we are half way there. 

Let me put it this way, many people live in nations they are not citizens of.  They have to follow certain rules based on where they travel, how is this really different?

Say I am a French citizen living in the US I may even be a "dual citizen".  I enjoy the rights as a citizen of the EU and the US, right?  If I have bank accounts, business deals, interest earned on banking, etc. in Europe it is not touchable by the US at all, they can't mess with it.  If while living in the US I pay myself a salary from such a business and bring the money into the US it is subject to US taxes and laws. 

Now the US can tell France and the EU that they "must report" certain things, but France may very well tell the US to F-off.  It is up to France what to reveal about French Citizens if anything at all to other nations.  If this were set up right, if Libertas were asked, it couldn't give the info anyway even if IT wanted to and I think that is the thing. 

Libertas is an IT not a person, not a government.  Each citizen is equal, no one rules, no one is in charge, it is just a system that people are part of.  Just like the US isn't Obama, Obama is just president of the US.  Libertas has no president, it is an Anarcho State of voluntary association. 

I don't have all the hows, but the more I consider this the more I feel it can work. 
Jack Spirko

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Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2014, 11:49:20 AM »
I think I see where you are going...

If you own bitcoins in the blockchain, there's nothing to physically steal.  You could be a farmer or a mafia boss and your money is theoretically safe there. 
Of course, as soon as you convert that money to physical goods (buying stuff), SOME government that has jurisdiction where you live can always decide to repossess your truck for example.

I suppose this is a further abstraction around a virtual currency.  Today busybody US and EU politicians think they can regulate bitcoin, but in Libertas no one can regulate Libercoin.

While that's all dandy, trade between Libertas and the rest of the world has to happen, else no one would ever care that 100 million virtual citizens had 100 trillion Libercoins.

Offline ModernSurvival

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2014, 11:56:41 AM »
While that's all dandy, trade between Libertas and the rest of the world has to happen, else no one would ever care that 100 million virtual citizens had 100 trillion Libercoins.

That is the point though, if you have 100 million people exchanging value for value the world would WANT to do business with you.   ;)
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Offline TexasGirl

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2014, 12:13:53 PM »
Hmmm...

So if Libertas is virtual, the citizens would need to live in other countries?  Would that be a case of denouncing initial citizenship and picking up Libertasian citizenship?  I'm confused how a person would not be bound to the laws of the land he/she stands on.

Hypothetically, of course.

~TG
 

Offline ModernSurvival

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2014, 12:22:28 PM »
Hmmm...

So if Libertas is virtual, the citizens would need to live in other countries?  Would that be a case of denouncing initial citizenship and picking up Libertasian citizenship?  I'm confused how a person would not be bound to the laws of the land he/she stands on.

Hypothetically, of course.

~TG

You would not, you would follow the law of the land in which you stand as it relates to THEIR economy and THEIR BUSINESS.  Just like again a dual citizen does today. 

Again if a nation grants me Citizenship, I don't have to renounce my US Citizenship, UNLESS THE NEW NATION REQUIRES IT, many don't.  Panama for example, you can get citizen in about 5 years with 40,000 dollars.  Panama has no issue with dual citizens but when you do business as a Panamanian that is Panamanian business. 

If you sell something to another person for Balboas well so be it, not the US's business.   Now if you are a dual citizen in the US of both nations and do business in America or bring Balboas to the US and convert to dollars the US has the ability to tax your money. 

If I am in the US and take your car, Panamanian or not US/Panamanian or not, I am still able to be arrested, jailed, etc.  Just like if you go to Germany you follow German law.  But make no mistake about it, you are much more free in the world today as a Swiss Citizen then a US Citizen no matter where you live. 

The problem with Libertas is that it requires something not common in today's world, patience.  You have to build it before it is useful not the other way around. 

You also need a plan to survive the middle.  If 5,000 of us do this, no one cares, no one would bother.  Even Ira Ramone Sancia (IRS) would likely ignore it for a long time, (just like they did Bitcoin) because they don't want to give legitimacy to a few fringe idiots in their mind.

Once you have 20 Million People or so, wow how do they fight that, they can't.  By then some other nations are going to stand up and recognize you, open diplomacy and commerce with you, etc.

It is the middle where you are in danger here.
Jack Spirko

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Offline TexasGirl

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2014, 12:28:11 PM »
Well, it's too bad someone can't take an uncharted island and declare it Libertas.  I think a Libertas passport would be cool.

And it would be easier to play they hypothetical constitution game with a physical hypothetical country.

~TG
 

Offline mnotlyon

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2014, 12:31:26 PM »
Well, it's too bad someone can't take an uncharted island and declare it Libertas.  I think a Libertas passport would be cool.

~TG

That would be my vote. I simply can't see the value of a nation, that isn't really a nation. I'm trying to open my mind, but it's a different concept.
I see the value of trading with a different currency, but I can't see how that benefits anything except for avoiding taxation.

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2014, 12:58:37 PM »
That would be my vote. I simply can't see the value of a nation, that isn't really a nation. I'm trying to open my mind, but it's a different concept.
I see the value of trading with a different currency, but I can't see how that benefits anything except for avoiding taxation.

But then a platoon of marines could conquer your little island and you're all done

Offline Coctailer

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2014, 02:21:24 PM »
Well, it's too bad someone can't take an uncharted island and declare it Libertas.  I think a Libertas passport would be cool.

And it would be easier to play they hypothetical constitution game with a physical hypothetical country.

~TG

Thats what I was thinking, but that may be outside the thought-bubble.

The only drawback I could see is not having that warm-fuzzy feeling of a place that you could go to and stand on the earth and say, "Whew, I'm back home safe in Libertas"

On a another note:
WTS: 1 Colt AR-15 for 1000 Libercoin.
First post of "I'll take it" gets it.

Would tax be due if exchanging goods and services for Libercoin? I know it wouldn't be traceable.

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2014, 03:54:20 PM »
Can I pay you 999 libercoins today and you put the Colt on layaway?

Offline mnotlyon

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2014, 03:57:02 PM »
But then a platoon of marines could conquer your little island and you're all done

Sure, they could, but why would they want to?

Our little island should be pretty safe as long as it doesn't have any oil under it. :)

Offline Ms. Albatross

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2014, 08:52:10 PM »
I have a couple of questions:

All actual government is the people in and of themselves, decisions on what to do are based on voting.  Voting may require much higher than 50% majority to get something done, perhaps more like 80%, anyway that is TBD.

Since this is a virtual country, what would you imagine the citizens of Libertas would vote upon?  (I'm not being a smart a$$.  I just can't think of any issues that would require voting)

Quote
Any and all "taxes" must be 100% voluntary, this would likely include "buying citizenship" at the beginning, something done by free choice, once a citizen anything else funded is 100% voluntary.

This relates to the first question.  Since this would be a virtual country, what would you imagine that taxes might used for?

Quote
All members must pledge adherence to the non aggression principle and denounce violence except in defense of life, liberty and or property. 

This seems reasonable - to keep out crime bosses and those who would use the economy of Libertas to launder the money they get from violent activities.  How would it be enforced?  Is this an instance where voting might be used?  If someone is accused of violence, the citizens could vote to expel them?

I might be able to give some suggestions if I understood these concepts better.


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Offline TexasGirl

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2014, 08:58:04 PM »

On a another note:
WTS: 1 Colt AR-15 for 1000 Libercoin.
First post of "I'll take it" gets it.


Is that a virtual Colt?

Would tax be due if exchanging goods and services for Libercoin? I know it wouldn't be traceable.

Traceable?  Um... as if someone were to post it in a public forum.  :o

~TG
 

Offline Coctailer

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2014, 05:47:39 AM »
Is that a virtual Colt?

Traceable?  Um... as if someone were to post it in a public forum.  :o

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Offline NWBowhunter

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2014, 06:29:58 AM »

Once you have 20 Million People or so, wow how do they fight that, they can't.  By then some other nations are going to stand up and recognize you, open diplomacy and commerce with you, etc.


Hence a need for some type of representative level of Government. Other Nations can't talk to 20 million citizens.  Ratification of the decisions of the representatives would have to be by the super majority vote.

It is the middle where you are in danger here.

Agree, the existing physical nations will mount the demonization campaign to crush the new idea.

I'd like to see the constitution encapsulate as primary law that :

All are created equal, there is no guarantee of equal outcome.
Responsibility is personal, creation of virtual entities i.e. (Corporations, states, municipalities...)  does not remove the burden of responsibility for the individual.
Association at any level is voluntary if I don't want to do business with you I am not compelled by force of law.



 
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Offline Docwatmo

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2014, 07:22:51 AM »
Here is some food for thought and why this is such a good idea.   Short of a revolution, nothing is going to change the current system unless a better method is shown and enough people adopt the new method to make the old method obsolete.     This may only be a thought process exercise.  But the brainstorming and ideas may prove to be useful.  Once a system, even a simple virtual system could be built to handle even a small portion of what is being suggested, we can slowly encompass more and more into the new system.  This is how a non-revolution revolution happens.    You don't have to fight or destroy the current system, you only have to show how much better a different system is and people will naturally migrate to it.  Eventually you hit the critical mass of  users to allow the old system to die without force or revolution.   

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2014, 08:20:29 AM »
Here is some food for thought and why this is such a good idea.   Short of a revolution, nothing is going to change the current system unless a better method is shown and enough people adopt the new method to make the old method obsolete.     This may only be a thought process exercise.  But the brainstorming and ideas may prove to be useful.  Once a system, even a simple virtual system could be built to handle even a small portion of what is being suggested, we can slowly encompass more and more into the new system.  This is how a non-revolution revolution happens.    You don't have to fight or destroy the current system, you only have to show how much better a different system is and people will naturally migrate to it.  Eventually you hit the critical mass of  users to allow the old system to die without force or revolution.

But would this only be true among rational, critical thinking people?  Those who have corrupted an existing system creating a mindset of entitlement among people, with a loyalty to the spigot, so to speak, will not comprehend a "better" system.  Nothing will be more better than the deal they have. They will not see the unsustainability of it, likewise those in power because of them will not relinquish power.  They would fight the new better system from the start.

On a clean slate, sans what the world has now, it would work well as an illustration.

~TG
 

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2014, 08:29:20 AM »
To a point both the non-thinking, and the embedded users would fight it, but if the system is truly superior, then most of the "Me, me, me" people will flow to it, because it benefits them (Except for a few elites who control the current system and make their living off of it), It just takes the critical mass point being reached to make the jump.  The question is, what is the critical mass point?  I do not know the answer to that one.  It could be 51% or it could be as high as 90% or 95%.   

Even the less intelligent/people can see results.  If I can purchase goods without paying high sales taxes, I'll do it, and I believe even those embedded int he system would do that as well.



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Offline Coctailer

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2014, 10:34:51 AM »
But would this only be true among rational, critical thinking people?  Those who have corrupted an existing system creating a mindset of entitlement among people, with a loyalty to the spigot, so to speak, will not comprehend a "better" system.  Nothing will be more better than the deal they have. They will not see the unsustainability of it, likewise those in power because of them will not relinquish power.  They would fight the new better system from the start.

On a clean slate, sans what the world has now, it would work well as an illustration.

~TG

I think the "takers", would stick to the current system. Thats OK. Let them fall apart with it.

Libertas COULD grow on its own, and if there are enough people, vendors, even Libertas Banks, one could almost turn their back on the current system and ignore it.

If it keeps plugging along, Who cares?
If it falls apart, Who cares?
I'm ignoring that system all together....

It doesn't have to be free thinkers that join either. Even an idiot can look and see people doing things in a better way and figure out that they want to move in that direction.

Offline ModernSurvival

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2014, 11:21:46 AM »
That would be my vote. I simply can't see the value of a nation, that isn't really a nation. I'm trying to open my mind, but it's a different concept.
I see the value of trading with a different currency, but I can't see how that benefits anything except for avoiding taxation.

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Offline ModernSurvival

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2014, 12:18:26 PM »
I read the comments here and I realize how limited the thinking of most of us has become.  Instead of what would make it work I see a ton of why it won't work.  No one take offense but let's examine some of the stuff so far.

1.  Basically we would be better off with some deserted island? 

How exactly, those that suggest this, would you pick up and move or say others should go first and if they did envy them when they did yet not really understand the sacrifice.  Further why should those of us leave the place we live anyway.  Isn't it time to fight back without "running away".  This has been tried many times and failed by the way. 

2.  What if "takers" flooded in?

In such a system what exactly would they take?  What concern is there, first you have to buy your citizenship, so you can't be that much a taker.  Next if any "service" is voluntary he/she that receives it must pay for it by choice.  There would be no department of social services you get that right, no one gets shit for free.  Instead of figuring out what limited services might be desired and how they would be delivered to those that chose them (which is an opportunity to be the provider by the way) the first reaction is to worry about takers?

3.  Who would represent the nation to other nations?

Why do you think this is necessary?  Why do you think 20 million or 200 million people can't all represent themselves?  Why can't anyone see that this could be an IT not a person, an automated government that is representing as all based on the desire to exchange value for value.  If Ecuador wants to do business with Libertas, they spell out how, those in Libertas that choose to do so, do, those that do not, do not.  No one person, no majority gets to commit the minority. 

So if Ecuador says Libertas citizens may freely travel to Ecuador and do business with them as a Libertas citizen or set up banking as such or open a business or be issued an Ecuadorian visa, etc.  Those that want to do so, do, those that do not, do not.  Why would you need or want a President Spirko to speak to Ecuador on your behalf, why not let Ecuador, Russia, etc. come to you and say, hey here is our deal, do you want it.  If you say yes, fine, if I say no, fine, you do as you will and I do as I will and life goes on.

When in the course of human events has one person been granted power over others and not abused it shortly thereafter?

What I see in some comments is the advice that a anarcholibertarian nation should follow the example of how to run a nation based on how others do so, even though no successful example of that model can be pointed to.  What did Einstein say about doing the same shit and expecting a different result?

Get 5 people to create FivePersonStan a nation of its own.  In 3 weeks they will all want to do different things, why not set up a system that allows that?  Frankly with land and borders it can't be done.  With a landless nation it can be done. 

Let us ask what makes one nation recognize another, there are a few things.

Land
Hard Force
Money
Population
Soft Force
Defensive Force

Really in the end it is only those things.  We look at 12 guys on a platform in the sea with a flag, they say they are a nation.  They have no land, they have little money, they exert no force and have no population, so we say F-Off sealand, we don't care.  They end up being a novelty that attempts to sell Papers of Nobility to those that want a piece of paper calling them a duke or a knight or some such silly shit. 

Which of the four above can a virtual nation acquire.

Land - in the conventional sense?  No, it actually ruins the VN concept.

Hard Force - This is military force, and police force to control your own population.  Neither works for a VN.

Money - Economic power is the most important factor in one nation recognizing another.  Costa Rica has a minimal police force and no military, but they do have economic power and are considered a "major market" to other nations that recognize them in spite of not having a military. Can a VN develop economic power both with "national reserves" and with a "national economy"?  You bet your ass it can.

Population - Nations recognize other nations due to the fact that they represent large numbers of humans.  A VN can gather citizens faster than any other type of nation.  No one has to move, sell a house, quit a job.  Population can be acquired.

Soft Force - This is also called "soft power" as strong as the US is, soft power gets more shit done than military force.  Soft power is a direct result of money and population.  In other words the US can get shit done with France with no threat of military actions.  We have money and people and that can be leveraged for such things.  One doesn't ignore a group of millions of humans with money, it combines to create soft power even without the threat of a missile or a gun.

Defensive Force - this applies to the ability to withstand both hard and soft power of other nations.  How difficult is it to talk this group into doing what you want when they really don't want to.  Next if that won't work how hard would it be to use hard force to make them do it or at least leverage your soft power with the threat of hard force and get capitulation.   The beauty of being strong is if those in power see their defensive power as weak, they will yield on behalf of their population.  Nations have the greatest respect for other nations that have strong defensive force.  No one wants to think about invading the Swiss!  They have money, a strong people and a hell of a defensive force! 

How the hell would you attack a Virtual Nation with hard or soft power when no one member or group of members could "surrender" on behalf of the rest or commit the others to a damn thing on behalf of the rest?

So a VN can have the following

Money
Population
Soft Power
Defensive Force

That is 4 of the 6.  The approach makes no land a strength far more then not having it makes a weakness.  It allows for a pacifist approach to defense.  It creates an enemy that can't be shot, bombed, imprisoned, invaded, etc.  Think of Palestine!  How is that working out, walled in, bombed and also fed by their enemies.  Yet Palestine isn't really a piece of land, it is an idea and yet has managed to withstand decades of attack.  What if it wasn't a piece of dirt at all?  And what if it wasn't bent on destroying other nations, only obsolescing them?

Think of the economics alone.  Citizens buy citizenship for say 500 dollars but they do so in Bitcoin.  Their Bitcoins are exchanged at a fixed ratio with Libercoins.  The bitcoins are locked in a virtual wallet on behalf of all citizens.  The only way they can ever come out is being exchanged with a citizen for bitcoins.  The "nation" can't spend the money, it is only held as a reserve, just like a gold reserve.  Citizens now exchange libercoins inside the economy, convert to bitcoin if they want to do business on the outside. 

Libertas is now a volentarist nation right at that point, but only participation can make it successful.  If citizens want something done, a “service” then it must be provided by someone willing to do so.  So that means the “government” is not going to provide someone to take away your trash (not anytime soon anyway) or pay you welfare.  Someone may provide “unemployment insurance” which you can buy and someone may say I can do that better and compete with you for it. 

There may also be a “court system” to resolve differences.  These could be both binding and non binding arbitrators both sides pay for to resolve a dispute and they can choose who does it for them. 

I think the reason much of it is hard to get right now is people can no longer understand true freedom.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 12:25:26 PM by ModernSurvival »
Jack Spirko

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Offline ModernSurvival

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2014, 12:40:01 PM »
Let me add may be my question leading this off was poorly phrased, perhaps it is more a technical spec, then a Constitution. 
Jack Spirko

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Offline Scots_Knight

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2014, 12:57:37 PM »
Politicians are held responsible for their decisions and are not paid or controlled by 'party fees'. If they are forced to endure the same consequences as everyone else, I'm certain life would improve immeasurably for everyone; also if their wealth were held within the state or country they seek to run, the politicians would make much greater efforts to improve the lives of everyone.

Offline ahouchens

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2014, 01:03:02 PM »
What's the point of a virtual citizenship if not a single nation acknowledges it? If it is never acknowledged there is no practical benefit of being a virtual citizen of Libertas. How would it ever get off the ground and why would any nation state acknowledge it? It doesn't matter if all citizens of Libertas are making exchanges in their own created virtual currency -- the real nation state will just simply demand increased taxes in their state backed currency, or demand tax for each libertas currency transaction (the same thing they are doing with bitcoin right now). There's no economic incentive for a country to acknowledge a virtual nation, since opting to tax you over acknowledge your virtual citizenship will always be more profitable for a state. Barter will and forever remain in the domain of control of a state, even if that includes a created virtual money of a created virtual nation. A virtual nation will never be able to compete with a non-virtual standing army of killers.

The same reasons the "Sovereign Citizen" movement will never get traction, will be the same reason a virtual nation of Libertas will never be practically realized. Point me to where I'm wrong, I would love to be demonstrated incorrect on this matter, because it is an exciting proposition.

Offline ModernSurvival

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Re: What Would You Put into the Constitution of a Virtual Nation
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2014, 01:07:44 PM »
Scots_Knight perhaps read the above?  What politician are you talking about there would not be any.

ahouchens, please read my long post a few levels above, I answered that entire line of thought before you asked about it.
Jack Spirko

The Survival Podcast

"If some of our teenage thrill seeker really want to go out and get a thrill.  Let them go up into the north west and let them tangle with a Grizzly bear  or Polar bear or brown bear and get that effect that will cleanse the soul".  ~ Fred Bear