Author Topic: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter  (Read 30937 times)

Offline Carl

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2014, 03:58:38 PM »
My first attempt at PHOTOs,this is my JUMP BOX with TWO Optima Yellow top 55 Amp hour batteries and a 1600 watt Xantrex inverter. It has a charger and jumper cables inside with the two batteries and runs my fridge for 3 hours run time without outside help from solar or auto alternator...jumpstarts most any vehicle too.It will charge a cell phone a BUNCH OF TIMES TOO!


Offline keebler

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2014, 05:15:13 PM »
I go camping up in my field a lot---set the Jump start on the ground---I have a 13 watt CFL lamp  off it---it last all weekend (use at Night).
worth it to me.

Offline Greekman

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2014, 10:52:54 AM »
Schumacher 3 stage charger $40 , add an INVERTER for safe auto to auto CHARGING $40 , Jumper cables $40 ...LASTS FOR YEARS.

Carl would you mind explaining the inverter part?
You use the inverter to make 110V and then the 3 stage charger to charge the dead battery?

Offline Carl

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2014, 12:36:53 PM »
Carl would you mind explaining the inverter part?
You use the inverter to make 110V and then the 3 stage charger to charge the dead battery?

I use the inverter for many things besides running the 3 stage charger (like a work light). The charger prevents my battery or alternator from damage and only needs about 10 minutes to charge a 'dead' battery enough to start a disabled auto....why risk damage /battery explosions /alternator being burned up just to help someone. I also get a warning if the 'dead' battery is damaged due to the smart electronics of the 3 stage charger...The inverter,charger,work light ALL HAVE MULTIPLE USES and I protect MY VEHICLE . I use what I have and try to keep what I have ...may not be the BEST WAY,but it is MY WAY.

These days ,with all of the electronics in an auto...I just don't like the traditional jumper cables and the exposing my vehicle to damage.

Offline TNSurvivor

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2014, 05:03:43 PM »
I have a jump starter pack that i used in the winter while living in MN when i would have to travel for work.  There were a couple of occasions when i had a week trip during a particularly cold snap and i needed to jump start the car.  It didn't work either time.  It didn't have enough power to get the car going.  Thank goodness for AAA!

Offline Carl

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2014, 05:12:06 PM »
I have a jump starter pack that i used in the winter while living in MN when i would have to travel for work.  There were a couple of occasions when i had a week trip during a particularly cold snap and i needed to jump start the car.  It didn't work either time.  It didn't have enough power to get the car going.  Thank goodness for AAA!

Jump starters actually can work if they are well charged and connected for several minutes to the weak battery to charge it a bit,then,if you are lucky,you get one good shot at starting...but if the weak battery has a bad cell or other problem...use the jump battery to charge your cell phone to call for help. ::)

Offline Greekman

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2014, 12:35:13 AM »
I use the inverter for many things besides running the 3 stage charger (like a work light). The charger prevents my battery or alternator from damage and only needs about 10 minutes to charge a 'dead' battery enough to start a disabled auto....why risk damage /battery explosions /alternator being burned up just to help someone. I also get a warning if the 'dead' battery is damaged due to the smart electronics of the 3 stage charger...The inverter,charger,work light ALL HAVE MULTIPLE USES and I protect MY VEHICLE . I use what I have and try to keep what I have ...may not be the BEST WAY,but it is MY WAY.

These days ,with all of the electronics in an auto...I just don't like the traditional jumper cables and the exposing my vehicle to damage.
that being said, isn't there a 12V to 12V charger that will do the same job in powerign a dead battery?

Offline Carl

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2014, 04:55:10 AM »
Yes,you can use jumper cables or a cigarette lighter to cigarette lighter adapter ,but you need HIGHER than 12 volts to actually CHARGE a battery and this is why I have chosen a good ,3 stage charger and inverter ....also because I can be up to 100 feet from my auto and still charge a battery(do that with jumper cables) I also use the inverter to power my HAM radio ,through it's power supply (also fans and lights)when operating as portable or in emergency and I am a bit weakened and prefer NOT to need to carry a heavy battery.

Jumper cables require you to be close to the other vehicle and expose yourself to possible battery explosion ,damage to YOUR VEHICLE etc.

The lighter-adapter/charger actually charges ,but with very LOW CURRENT and takes a good bit of time.

A 3 stage charger will ALERT YOU TO A DAMAGED BATTERY,allow 100 feet plus distance from your vehicle,and actually CHARGES at about 25% of a typical battery capacity and often allows the stranded vehicle to start within 10 to 15 minutes.

These are things that I already HAVE and USE for other situations...It allows a great flexibility of options that I enjoy using (no more flashlight in the teeth,I use a full size work light)

I just tell you what I do that works for me ...not necessarily what is BEST.

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2014, 08:51:26 AM »
This is one reason I think these smaller lithium units punch harder than their weight class for amperage, they're mostly 18v units. Mine also can recharge my laptop battery about once and charge my phone four times.

Offline Bubafat

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2014, 08:58:27 PM »
I would be very hesitant about relying on those tiny lithium ion jump starters, especially if you drive anything but a small car.  I ran the numbers once and the C-rate required to jump a car from a battery so small is obscenely huge almost impossibly huge.  Charge your phone with it, but don't rely on it to jump your car/truck/van/SUV.

endurance

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2014, 09:09:27 PM »
I would be very hesitant about relying on those tiny lithium ion jump starters, especially if you drive anything but a small car.  I ran the numbers once and the C-rate required to jump a car from a battery so small is obscenely huge almost impossibly huge.  Charge your phone with it, but don't rely on it to jump your car/truck/van/SUV.
Another bonus to driving a car with a 2L engine. ;)

Offline Bubafat

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2014, 09:20:34 PM »
Have you tried using it for its intended use (jumping a dead car)? 

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2014, 01:16:11 AM »
Have you tried using it for its intended use (jumping a dead car)?

No personal experience, yet, but there's a bunch of YouTube vids like this one that appear legit: http://youtu.be/1qCFYyBmKfc

Offline Greekman

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2014, 01:55:54 AM »
I am in a real mood for making things...
So do you think a 7Ah SLA battery with proper wiring can jump start a 1.3L car?
It keep the bettery maintained at home, as a backup power option to my handheld radio

It is a quite lower than the 12Ah that jump starters use, but the engine is somewhat proportionally smaller

Offline Carl

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2014, 05:15:45 AM »
If the car and battery are in good working order and not damaged...maybe..
But often jumper cables transferring 50 to 100 or more amps are not enough.
I have used a "D" cell pack of TWELVE "D"cell 8 Amp hour  rechargeable cells ,
that ran a Ham radio of mine,to jump start a car,,,but it does not work every time.

Offline Greekman

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2014, 05:32:12 AM »
I think i will go frward amking it....materials are in hand and are small enough to fit in my kit...
Now where do I find a car with dead battery? LOL

Offline Carl

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2014, 05:41:39 AM »
I think i will go frward amking it....materials are in hand and are small enough to fit in my kit...
Now where do I find a car with dead battery? LOL

Use good cables and let the small battery stay connected to the weak battery (with ALL auto electrics OFF) for a few (5) minutes or so and you have a shot that you will get one good crank out of it...the battery is still good for other projects while having the 'jump' option.

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2014, 08:05:17 AM »
I am in a real mood for making things...
So do you think a 7Ah SLA battery with proper wiring can jump start a 1.3L car?
It keep the bettery maintained at home, as a backup power option to my handheld radio

It is a quite lower than the 12Ah that jump starters use, but the engine is somewhat proportionally smaller
I like where this is going. I have similar questions and all my googling led nowhere. Most of the Yahoo! and Ask dot com answers were wildass guesses at best since most didn't even talk about the combination of minimum voltage and minimum amperage to make a starter engage. Since some of the lithium jump boxes out there are as small as 12ah and some are saying these are pretty marginal for very dead batteries or larger, hard starting vehicles, I think your 7ah experiment will be very close with your small motor. You also have the benefit of warmer temperatures since cold batteries produce less power.

On the other hand, the lithium chemistry is higher voltage, which works in it's favor and the lithium chemistry also works better than lead acid in the cold. In any case, be smart and shield yourself when trying this out. I'm not without concerns with a sealed lead acid getting an extreme amperage draw and then a strong pulse of amperage after it starts. I wouldn't rule out explosion as a possibility.

Offline Carl

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2014, 08:28:25 AM »
But ,in looking at various Lithium Jump Batteries ,I see the average Jump battery is 18 volts at 3 AMP hours....and still relies that the battery is only weak and not damaged and that the vehicle is in good repair so that your chance of success is fair.

Doing some math,I see a 100 amp starter for 10 seconds actually needs 100 amps divided by 6 (10 sec to 1 min) is about 17 amp minute...divided by 60 min/hour equals about 1/4 Amp Hour for a cranking....yep it can work...even with a tiny lithium booster battery...

Remember that you are charging your weak battery ( hook up for a few seconds or minutes) and not cranking your auto with the tiny lithium cell...this is why my "D" cell jumper mentioned above actually worked.

Offline Greekman

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2014, 09:51:25 AM »
yep, you had voltage sag on your favor...but I think the lithiums sag less than the SLAs...

Offline Bubafat

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2015, 08:48:14 PM »
I am in a real mood for making things...
So do you think a 7Ah SLA battery with proper wiring can jump start a 1.3L car?
It keep the bettery maintained at home, as a backup power option to my handheld radio

It is a quite lower than the 12Ah that jump starters use, but the engine is somewhat proportionally smaller


Jumping a car has VERY little to do with capacity and many due to active surface area.

Most lithium ion jumpers are 18v because they are using cells not rated to sustain 100 amps and thus the voltage dips...big time. Even the highest energy 18650 cell is only rated for 35-40 amps. This to make a battery that could truly handle the amps required to jump a car you'd need 12 of them (4s3p).

If you have one of these tiny jumpers DONT let anyone stand near it when jumping a car. The heat generated could rupture or catch fire to the pack.

Offline Greekman

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2015, 03:44:27 AM »
Quote
Even the highest energy 18650 cell is only rated for 35-40 amps
nope we are close to 75 amps these days (30-35C peak/surge for 2-2.5Ah batteries)

Offline Carl

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2015, 05:52:19 AM »
But ,with Lithium Ion jump starters costing over $100...I think the 18 amp hour wet cell powered jump box would have more multiple uses and be the better deal when it is kept maintained by proper charging and use. The 3 ,6 and 12 amp hour lithium cells have only no use history yet. Lithium Ion cells in typical use are only expected to last THREE to FIVE YEARS and this is with proper care and cell degradation during this 3 to 5 year period.

So when Lithium and Gell cell jumpers are compared the ability to start a vehicle and useful life are about the same though PORTABILITY of lithium is better....the ability to use to charge and power other devices for a longer time goes to the gell cell jump box.

Either way you go ,you pay about the same for your battery RENTAL and which one to get boils down to your expectation of use.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

For useful life and versatility ,I still think my inverter,extension cord,and charger is safer,longer reaching and capable of many more uses. But I still carry jumper cables too.

Offline Greekman

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2015, 01:25:51 PM »
yet lithium is the wave of the future......with all this means...

One thing that favors the lithium chemistry is the ability to cope in lower temperatures...

(on the other hand it should not be charged at conditiosn of around 32 deg F)

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2015, 03:20:34 AM »
I've now got some real-world experience to report.

While replacing the high-beams on my wife's car today, I noticed that her battery was marginal and, especially since I'd already invested hours into getting all the plastic covers out of the way, decided to put in a new AGM battery, too.  With no battery in the vehicle, I tested my various jump packs and backup storage batteries to see which could start her 3.5L V6 solely on their own power. 


DieHard 18ah jump pack, 22lbs for the entire pack, and 12lbs for the SLA battery alone:  No start with either unit by itself.  But with both units hooked up together it did start easily.  Battery level showed a drop down to 75% capacity when I put them on the charger afterwards.

35ah SLA wheelchair battery, 23lbs:  No start.  Battery level dropped to 50% capacity.

150ah AGM deep-cycle, 97lbs:  Easy start.  Battery registered 100% capacity.

Noco Lithium Genius Boost, 2.6lbs:  Easy start, with just a faint hint of initial hiccup.  The pack still showed 100% capacity afterwards.

Offline Greekman

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2015, 05:58:03 AM »
good job  :clap:

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2015, 07:20:06 PM »
Before the final battery hookup today, I had my wife hook up the Genius Boost on her own and try to start the car with the engine totally cold, as yesterday's test was after two other successful starts with other batteries.  It took two tries, first time it didn't go and she was hooting about how it didn't work, but I had her try again and it started right up. 

I hooked up an amp clamp this time and measured a 250 amp max current flow through the Genius leads.  The unit is rated as being capable of a 400 amp surge and 200 amp sustained current.

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2015, 03:04:02 AM »
I wanted to boost the light output on my jump pack to something more useful than the pathetic pair of dome lights it comes with.  I found a cheap Kawell 18W LED light and crimped on Anderson Powerpole connectors to use with an existing 12v to Anderson PP adapter I already had around. 

Hardest part was figuring out the best way to mount the light to the pack.  Then I remembered I had a box of old MTB lights that I could cannibalize, so I removed the handlebar mount from one of them and bolted it to the Kawell's standard mount, making it easy to take on and off as needed with the Velcro strap.



This was the first time I'd used heat-shrink around both the cable and the Powerpole connectors and it turned out really nice, much better than just a zip tie or heat-shrink around the cable that I'd been doing before.  I love these connectors and try to use them as much as possible with my 12v stuff.

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2015, 06:49:34 AM »
Nice!

I had my first test of the lithium starter I got last summer a couple weeks ago.  I had left my dome light on overnight and at 9:30am we got a page for an MVA on the highway.  I jumped in my car and click, no motor movement at all.  I noticed the dim orange glow of the dome light and realized what I'd done.  I wasted no time hooking up the jump box and it started on the first try.  I drove the two minutes to the station, ran the call and had to use it a second time since I hadn't run the car long enough to charge the battery. Again, easy start on the first try.

I hadn't charged the jump box since I tossed it in the glove box over the summer and it was showing four out of five LEDs. Impressive performance from a partial charge.

Offline machinisttx

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Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2015, 07:18:46 PM »
Today I bought a new group 31 battery locally for $39.99 plus tax, which is the second one I've bought at this price. They still had a quarter of a pallet left I think, and will probably get more. These batteries have cosmetic defects, but no functional defects. You might do some looking in your area and see what you can come up with. I use mine as a portable jumper and as a battery for my Onan generator or Lincoln welder.

I have seen the standard jump boxes with SLA batteries work, and I've seen them not work. Any of them will have a finite lifespan just like any other battery. If I were going to buy one, I'd buy a high quality Li-ion type that fits in the glove box. They will hold a charge much better than lead acid and can have much higher safe discharge rates.

There isn't much substitute for a good charger either. I have a schumacher charger maintainer that seems to do everything I need it to do. I wish I could find a 120v charger that mimicked an alternator's charge rate/curve.