Author Topic: Heirloom cider apple  (Read 8386 times)

Amibeingdetained

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Heirloom cider apple
« on: November 02, 2014, 10:26:48 PM »
Hey all,

Pretty sure this is my first post here.

Can someone recommend a tasty, hardy, proven out cider apple which can be planted from seed with more or less reliable results? I'm in Zone 5 and would like to fill a spot on the property with a tree to provide fruit and summer shade.

Offline Cedar

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2014, 10:43:59 PM »
.

Amibeingdetained

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2014, 11:46:40 AM »
Okay, so no recommendations. I've been doing more digging on my own and keep coming back to the Newtown Pippen. Real cool variety. Massive flavor, hardy from zone 4-10 (!) and  the apples store like they were squash. Great history too. Look it up!

I cant find seed for it, though. Anyone have a source?

Amibeingdetained

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2014, 11:50:07 AM »
Scratch that. Looks like our sponsorer Bob Wells Nursery has them.

http://bobwellsnursery.com/index.php/pippin-apple.html

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2014, 12:31:31 PM »
yes, and you cant grow a known variety from seed anyways -- Bob Wells nursery has them on the M111 rootstock, which is a good one ( I had called and asked them about rootstocks previously, that is what they are on)

I think you cant go wrong with a Newton Pippin on M111 as a first apple tree and an all around versitle apple to make use of.

Offline mnotlyon

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2014, 02:36:18 PM »
Hey all,

Pretty sure this is my first post here.

Can someone recommend a tasty, hardy, proven out cider apple which can be planted from seed with more or less reliable results? I'm in Zone 5 and would like to fill a spot on the property with a tree to provide fruit and summer shade.

We had a rather large orchard when I was a kid. My father let me have all the apples that fell to the ground for free. Once they hit the ground, they will soon bruise. A bruised apple does not sell well, and will spoil much faster.

I turned my free apples into an apple juice business. Soon pressing more apples in season than our 20 acres could produce.
My customers liked a mixture of apples in their juice. About 50% golden delicious for their sweetness, and about 50% Johnathan for the tartness.

I made a lot of money as a teenager pressing apples until the department of making me sad shut me down. They gave me a whole list of "violations" that must be fixed before I could proceed. The funniest one was that I MUST have a hot water heater. I complained that there wasn't running water in the shed that I used. They said that wasn't a problem. It didn't have to be hooked up, I just had to have it.

Offline LibertyBelle

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2014, 02:43:46 PM »
Okay, so no recommendations. I've been doing more digging on my own and keep coming back to the Newtown Pippen. Real cool variety. Massive flavor, hardy from zone 4-10 (!) and  the apples store like they were squash. Great history too. Look it up!

I just came across this thread and saw that you've already found what would have been my suggestion. :)   
Love the Newtown/Albemarle Pippin.



Offline fritz_monroe

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2014, 02:45:32 PM »
Keep in mind that if you are planning on actually making cider, it will turn out tastier to have several varieties in it.  Like with mnotlyon's juice, different apples add different things to the final cider.

Offline Cedar

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2014, 03:01:24 PM »
So sorry I forgot to get back to you. "Arlington mill" is a good one

Cedar

Offline archer

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2014, 08:49:03 PM »
just found this thread, cannot offer any  suggestions for breeds, but i'll steal the answers..

Offline fritz_monroe

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2014, 04:02:52 PM »
I've been checking out the Trees of Antiquity page for a while.  I plan on getting their Cider bundle.  That is a bundle of 6 different varieties.

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2014, 06:21:44 PM »
just found this thread, cannot offer any  suggestions for breeds, but i'll steal the answers..

Come with me to the HOS event. Buy rootstock and I will graft them up for you.

Cedar

Amibeingdetained

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2014, 05:49:09 AM »
Just had another supplier recommended to me (it's good to have a permaculture nut survivalist mother in law!) that's quite a bit closer to my climate zone. I can also get them on standard root, which I really, really prefer.

Frankly, I'd be more than happy to just order a bag of each apple type and put seeds in the ground, provided I could talk to the grower and be reasonably certain that they're not cross polinated with some Lolwhut variaty. One of the few compelling reasons for a monocrop...

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2014, 06:21:57 AM »
Just had another supplier recommended to me (it's good to have a permaculture nut survivalist mother in law!) that's quite a bit closer to my climate zone. I can also get them on standard root, which I really, really prefer.

Frankly, I'd be more than happy to just order a bag of each apple type and put seeds in the ground, provided I could talk to the grower and be reasonably certain that they're not cross polinated with some Lolwhut variaty. One of the few compelling reasons for a monocrop...

you need to understand apple genetics. NO APPLES will EVER grow from seed that are the same as the parent tree. The only way to get a known or guaranteed variety is by grafting. Growing from seed is how to find and get new varieties. You should go read up on things like this or talk to your mothe rin law

Amibeingdetained

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2014, 07:33:37 AM »
That snarky reply is not necessary, mountainmomma.

I fully understand apples are genetically flexible and you won't get a clone by sexual reproduction. You're also not going to get the Evil Queen's poison apples, crab apples, choke cherries, or even anything completely different. A cider apple variaty polinated with a simillar variaty or the same cultivar is not going to produce dessert apples or vice versa. It will, however, be much more vigirous and diesase resistant etc when planted from seed.

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2014, 09:10:55 AM »
That snarky reply is not necessary, mountainmomma.

mountainmoma was not being snarky. She was telling the truth. MANY people come on here, ask apple questions and expect that apples will come true from seed. 99% of apples need to cross pollinate, being that very few are self-fertile. Some varieties actually need to cross with TWO different other pollinators in order to set any apples. Since you admitted you were new here and no one realized you 'fully understand' apple genetics.... So mountainmoma was trying to help you, and you were rude to her when she was trying to help you out.

Cedar

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2014, 09:24:52 AM »
A cider apple variaty polinated with a simillar variaty or the same cultivar is not going to produce dessert apples or vice versa. It will, however, be much more vigirous and diesase resistant etc when planted from seed.

Not necessarily. You are working with 57,000 genes in the apple species, the highest number of any plant genome studied to date. Even humans only have 30,000. It will be a total crapshoot what you are going to end up with from a seedling type. Even if you cross a cider apple variety with another cider apple variety, you could have at least a combination of 3,249,000,000 different 'varieties' which pop up. And probably not half of them will be good for anything. Talk a walk down a hedgerow where apples grow along a fenceline or roadway which are seedlings. Start taste testing. After you spit out half a dozen of them, you will realize it is probably better to get a sure bet from cultivars grafted onto disease free/drought resistant/water tolerant/whatever rootstock, than it is to waste time for a standard seedlings tree which in 8-12 years start to fruit which MIGHT pan out to something good... or not.

Cedar


Amibeingdetained

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2014, 10:42:12 AM »
Allright, fine. But with all respect, you've taken "fully understand" completely out of context and used it as a club to "help" me. All I meant is that I grasp the concept that you don't get a cultivar from seed and that's fine for my goals.

Ugh. Here I am arguing on the internet. Whatever, you're right, I was a terrible person. Thank you for the help. I really hope you don't make a habit of talking down everyone who comes here and "admits" they're new like this. Wow.

Offline strangetanks

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2014, 04:21:56 PM »
I make cider every year.  To be honest, I have no clue what kind of apples they are as I pick them from trees growing on other people's property.  In yards and on the sidewalk ect.

This year some of the best cider was from a big ole tree growing on the side of an elementary school parking lot.

I can tell you that some of the best cider (for some weird reason) comes from apples that taste too tart to eat as regular apples.  I've made cider from excellent eating apples and it doesn't seem as sweet and full tasting.  My best advice would be to plant a pile of seeds and taste them as they come up.  Cut down the ones that don't seem that great.

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2014, 08:56:23 PM »
You making sweet or hard cider Strangetanks?

Cedar

Offline strangetanks

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2014, 04:22:56 PM »
Mostly regular cider.  My wife is more patient than I am and has been working on perfecting the hard cider thing, so far the results havn't been all that great.  But gets better every year.

Made about 3 gallons of hard cider, kept some to drink fresh and the rest got canned for later use.  Made about 15 gallons total this year.

Offline mnotlyon

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2014, 09:28:47 AM »
You making sweet or hard cider Strangetanks?

Cedar

I'm a little confused by terminology. I thought fresh apple juice was called "apple juice". And fermented (hard) apple juice was called "apple cider".

Is that not accurate?

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2014, 11:04:36 AM »
Sweet cider is raw apple juice that has not undergone a filtration process to remove coarse particles of pulp or sediment.

Apple juice is juice that has been filtered to remove solids and pasteurized.

Hard cider is Sweet Cider which has been allowed to ferment and turn into alcohol.


I make my Sweet Cider and I do waterbath can it. We make 50+ gallons a year usually. THAT said, I do kinda-sorta also make Hard Cider, but my intent with it, is to then expose it to air, and turn that alcohol into vinegar, so I get my Apple Cider Vinegar. I use the pulp and sediment from the Sweet Cider, instead of the good drinking stuff however for the vinegar.

Gleaners had an apple cider squishing party the other day. I could not attend due to my EMR class, but they saved me back a gallon of the delicious stuff... and a couple buckets of the pulp, which I am starting to make into ACV.

Cedar


Offline mnotlyon

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2014, 12:17:52 PM »
Sweet cider is raw apple juice that has not undergone a filtration process to remove coarse particles of pulp or sediment.

Apple juice is juice that has been filtered to remove solids and pasteurized.



By this definition, I guess the stuff I used to make would most closely resemble sweet cider.

I made about 50 to 75 gallons on the weekends that my mom sold for me through the week.
I used a rack type press that kept most of the solids in a cloth. They were then fed to the pigs, but they didn't go at the dry pulp like they would a juicy apple.
It was then "filtered" through another cloth to keep out the big chunks, and bottled into one gallon jugs.
It was certainly more dark than store bought cider, and had a little sediment to it, but it wasn't pulpy like orange juice.
It was not pasteurized, and had to be refrigerated to keep it from turning.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2014, 12:59:55 PM »
Cedar, would you start a thread in the peserving food area showing how you make the apple cider vinegar, esp from pulp ?

Thanks

Offline The FOM

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2014, 02:30:03 PM »
I have about two dozen varieties here on the farm in the UK but make cider from all of the windfalls in a mix. Maybe I should stick to one or two types and refine the product. For terminology sakes, In the UK there is only one use of the word cider and it's the boozy kind.

Offline LibertyBelle

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2014, 04:48:20 PM »
but my intent with it, is to then expose it to air, and turn that alcohol into vinegar, so I get my Apple Cider Vinegar. I use the pulp and sediment from the Sweet Cider, instead of the good drinking stuff however for the vinegar.

Do you have a vinegar acid test kit?  That's one thing I missed in my canning preps is a way to test the acidity to make sure the homemade vinegar is adequate for canning.  But I'm planning to rectify that this week.  I "could" do the titration method, but it's a much longer and drawn out process.  In saying that, I will probably still do the titration:  A,  just to see how it compares to the commercial test kit, and B, to have the actual knowledge and hands on experience needed to determine the amount of acidity in the event that I wasn't able to have access to a commercial kit. 


Offline Cedar

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Re: Heirloom cider apple
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2014, 05:48:37 PM »
Cedar, would you start a thread in the peserving food area showing how you make the apple cider vinegar, esp from pulp ?
Thanks

Yeah, I can. Maybe tomorrow? Maybe later tonight since Z is working late.

Do you have a vinegar acid test kit? 

Yeah. My tongue.  :P
When it tastes as acidy as I want. And it makes my nose curl up, it is usually done.

Cedar