Author Topic: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist  (Read 14533 times)

Offline Smurf Hunter

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 6990
  • Karma: 327
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2016, 09:56:27 AM »
The sprayfoam is likely to break down over time in my experience. A rubber cable grommet would be less likely to fail.

I'm not sure if you've looked at it or not, but you might want to check the amp rating of your alternator. You've added several new loads to what was probably just above a marginal charging system with existing loads. If the extra batteries are discharged any appreciable amount, the load on the alternator is likely to be high enough to cause it to overheat and then components will fail. This is especially true if you're also running several other loads like lights/ac/defroster/etc.. Just saw that you have a current limiting device to charge the batteries, a very wise thing to do.

Some of the ford(and chevrolet) trucks and vans had dual alternator setups as an option. Installing them is usually plug and play with parts from the dealer.

I'm not presently running multiple batteries.  I'm wired for 30amps, but in practice will rarely draw 10.

About the spray foam, I made a PVC tube sleeve over the 12awg wires, slide THAT through the firewall and spray foamed.  I had about 1/8" of play and wanted it snug. 

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 12759
  • Karma: 682
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2016, 11:35:10 AM »
I'm not presently running multiple batteries.  I'm wired for 30amps, but in practice will rarely draw 10.

About the spray foam, I made a PVC tube sleeve over the 12awg wires, slide THAT through the firewall and spray foamed.  I had about 1/8" of play and wanted it snug.

And don't forget the fuses at the power source to protect the wires and the gadget.

Offline Smurf Hunter

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 6990
  • Karma: 327
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2016, 02:29:37 PM »
And don't forget the fuses at the power source to protect the wires and the gadget.

Done.

Only thing worse than frying a mobile radio would be frying your vehicle's electrical system.  While the risk may be low, the consequences are massive.  I fuse early and often.

endurance

  • Guest
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2016, 06:08:59 AM »
Last spring we had a vehicle fire in the bed of a pickup truck.  The owner lived in the back and actually built a pretty cool setup with cabinets, drawers and a bed. He also ran a 10-12ga wire from the battery into the bed of the truck which ran under the plywood floor unprotected. After a year or so of his weight getting in and out in addition to the movement of the bed under the plywood, that insulation was toast. The wiring shorted and smoldered until the plastic bed liner ignited.

All could have been avoided with an inline fuse and proper wire routing and protection.

Offline FreeLancer

  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 5321
  • Karma: 742
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2018, 02:08:33 PM »
I gave the vehicle to my niece a few months ago, so the system has been dismantled and I’m trying to figure out what to do next.

I need to test the Lifeline AGM on the CBA to see how much it’s deteriorated since new. 

The two 35ah intermediate batteries are going from a 12v parallel configuration to 24v series and die a miserable death attached to a new UPS that is wired to connect to external batteries. They have definitely fared the worse in this experiment, but that was kind of the point, and now they can give me a few extra minutes of computer run time in a power outage.

If I do go with another battery bank in the car, I’m not so sure I want to do lead acid again due to the weight.  Wrestling a 90 lb battery inside the confines of a vehicle really wasn’t fun. So that’s got me looking at LiFePo and I finally dipped my toe in that pond by purchasing a Bioenno 20ah battery to play with.  Based on how much everyone else raves about it, I’m thinking I will probably like the new chemistry just fine.

Offline FreeLancer

  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 5321
  • Karma: 742
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2018, 08:16:30 PM »
I need to test the Lifeline AGM on the CBA to see how much it’s deteriorated since new. 

Apparently quite a bit. 

I ran the same 150W constant power test I last performed 2.5 years ago. 



The results for the Lifeline AGM, which is rated at 150Ah, was 137Ah at a constant 150W draw down to 11V.  My testing 6 months ago yielded 139Ah at the same draw, so I'm pretty happy with that.  This battery is nearing the three year mark and I still haven't killed it, which is a miracle for me.  I'm very much impressed with these batteries and think the higher premium may actually be worth it. 

This time I only got 79Ah, almost half the battery's rated capacity.  Maybe that's not too bad for a lead acid battery that I purchased over 5 years ago, it's certainly better than any other battery I've had.  But I also wonder what would have happened if I'd done a better job of keeping it near full charge over the last year, instead of intermittently discharging and charging it when I could remember.  Lifeline recommends that their AGM batteries be kept as near to full charge as possible.  While I had it hooked up to this system in the car that was the case, but not so much after dismantling it.  I really suck at this.  It's probably a good thing I don't have a big solar battery bank to maintain.


I also tested the new 20Ah Bioenno at 100W constant power and got just over 20Ah performance.   Beautiful discharge curve.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 11:48:26 PM by FreeLancer »

Offline Alan Georges

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4346
  • Karma: 203
  • Still trying to reason with hurricane season.
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2018, 09:06:24 PM »
I also tested the new 20Ah Bioenno at 100W constant power and got just over 20Ah performance.   Beautiful discharge curve.
This is good to hear.  At $10 per AH, LiFePO4's are a substantial investment.  They do seem worth it however, and it's good to see real-world tests confirming this.  Thanks for the report, FL.

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 12759
  • Karma: 682
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2018, 05:07:43 AM »
I also see the possibilities for lithium showing great Ham radio ,and other possibilities though you must use caution to avoid damage to electronic balance circuits withing many 'battery' builds.

http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=62770.msg747633#msg747633

Offline FreeLancer

  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 5321
  • Karma: 742
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2018, 09:03:34 PM »
This time I only got 79Ah, almost half the battery's rated capacity. 

After several cycles of pulsed desulfation charges and a couple 15V charges, the capacity of this 150Ah Lifeline AGM battery has improved dramatically.  Last night I tested it at a constant 180W from full charge to 11V and got a capacity of 122Ah, which seems surprisingly close to the 139Ah @ 150W performance from 3 years ago.  It's handling 500W discharges, too

Maybe I didn't kill it......


I also tested the new 20Ah Bioenno at 100W constant power and got just over 20Ah performance.   Beautiful discharge curve.

The Bioenno really is freakin' awesome.  Yesterday this 20Ah rated battery turned in a capacity, from full charge to 11V, of just over 19Ah at a constant 400W discharge, which pulls more than 36A at the end. 

Does that even make any sense, to have 100W and 400W capacity results that close?  If I hadn't tested it on the CBA I wouldn't have believed it (or the Lifeline results, either).  Does LiFePO4 performance improve that much after a few discharge cycles?  All tests results were from a full charge on the factory charger down to 11V.

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 12759
  • Karma: 682
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2018, 06:00:53 AM »
  The chemistry of lifepo4 is capable ,but I advise to stick to manual suggestions to maintain the integrity of the cells,the electronics,and you home from fire.

Offline FreeLancer

  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 5321
  • Karma: 742
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2018, 10:01:54 AM »
Model BLF-1220A Battery Specifications
Voltage: 12V
Capacity: 20Ah
Case Type: PVC Pack
Charge Connector: DC Plug
Discharge Connector: Anderson Powerpole
Maximum Continuous Discharge Current: 40A (make sure your electrical load consumes less than 40A)
Maximum Power Delivered to Load at 12V: 480 Watts (12V x 40A = 480 Watts)
Maximum Peak Discharge Current: 60A (3 sec)
Dimensions: 6.5 in. x 4.31 in. x 3.3 in. (160 mm x 108 mm x 83 mm)
Weight: 5.4 lbs. (2.4 kg.)
Includes built-in PCM (protection circuit module) which provides internal cell balancing and management, protection from overcurrent, undervoltage (overdischarge), overvoltage and short circuiting, and has integrated charging circuitry.


Last night I ran it at 440W from full to 11V, which kept it under 40A continuous.  Again, it produced just over 19Ah. 

Offline chad

  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1189
  • Karma: 43
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2018, 10:25:51 AM »
I got a couple of old batteries, I think there 150 AH. How do you do a desulfation?

Offline FreeLancer

  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 5321
  • Karma: 742
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2018, 10:33:00 AM »
I used the repair mode on my Noco Genius charger.

Offline FreeLancer

  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 5321
  • Karma: 742
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2018, 12:01:39 AM »
So the Lifeline Technical Manual recommends RV and boat owners perform the following at the beginning and end of each season.


5.7 Capacity Testing

To determine the actual capacity of a Lifeline® AGM battery relative to its rated capacity, a full discharge test should be performed. Although there are various battery testers available on the market, such as carbon pile testers, impedance meters, conductance meters, and others, these testers are not reliable in determining the battery’s actual capacity. To determine the battery’s actual capacity relative to its rated capacity, use the following procedure:

1. Stabilize the battery at 68-86°F (20-30°C) for at least 24 hours.
2. Bring the battery to full charge as described in Sections 5.4, 5.5 or 5.6 as applicable.
3. Discharge the battery at a constant current of 25 amperes until the voltage falls to 10.5 volts (5.25 volts for a 6 Volt battery). Record the discharge time in minutes.
4. Compare the measured discharge time to the published 25A rating (reserve capacity minutes) for the battery.
5. If the battery delivers less than 80% of the rated capacity the conditioning procedure given in Section 5.5 should be attempted and the battery capacity should be retested.
6. If the battery delivers less than 50% of its rated capacity, it should be replaced. However, the user should determine the amount of capacity needed for their particular
application and adjust the pass/fail threshold accordingly.



They rate my 150Ah GPL-30HT for 315 minutes @ 25A. 

Mine ran for 259 minutes, or 82%.  Not too bad for a 66-month-old lead acid battery, especially one belonging to neglected by me.

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 12759
  • Karma: 682
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2018, 05:55:19 AM »
That is quite a test and provides good data ,though kind of hard on a battery...looks like it works and  is good exercise for the battery chemistry.

Offline FreeLancer

  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 5321
  • Karma: 742
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2018, 09:18:55 PM »

4. Compare the measured discharge time to the published 25A rating (reserve capacity minutes) for the battery.


I didn't realize that Reserve Capacity (RC) was a common battery measurement in the marine DC power world.  I guess that explains why Concorde lists that data for their Lifeline brand, but not for the exact same AGM battery marketed for solar battery bank use under their Sun Xtender brand.  The Sun Xtender Technical Manual is identical to the Lifestyle, except it totally skips the Capacity Testing section listed above.  They also report Ah capacity at the 20 hour rate for the Lifeline, but at a 24-hour rate for the Sun Xtender, which explains why the later gets a couple extra Ah tacked on to its result.  It makes sense to think about power use over a 24 hour day in solar applications, but why not for RV and marine use, too?  What's so special about the 20-hour rate?

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 12759
  • Karma: 682
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: Extra Vehicle Battery/Inverter...with a twist
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2018, 05:11:16 AM »
  The manufacturers have so many creative ways of rating batteries and mostly driven by the buyers market..I try to convert to AMP HOURS at a 20 hour rate as that is most common ,even though the twenty hour thing makes no real sense as we just don't use them in such a manner and often now we have some rated at how many times they can recharge a cell phone or a laptop????  No real definitive data  so buyers are under a cloud of confusion.