Author Topic: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.  (Read 11745 times)

Offline I.L.W.

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Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« on: August 17, 2016, 09:39:08 AM »
Ok, so I had my first Pokemon Go trespassers over the weekend. I'm pretty rural, didn't think it would happen around here, and I've largely ignored the hype. Now I'm trying to catch up on the issue.

For those who are unaware, Pokemon Go is an "Augmented reality game" in which players fight and capture monsters (virtual cartoon cockfighting basically). The monsters are located in different areas of the globe (the real world), which the player must go to find and capture them. When found, the monster appears overlayed on the real-world, real-time picture shown by their smartphones camera. The monsters are supposed to be located in public areas (parks & public libraries for example), but can be randomly found just about anywhere, and players may lure them to an area.

My farm is near a park (which the game attracts many of it's players to). I had a few kids (college age) wander from the park into the back of my property near my ponds. I confronted them (politely) to explain they were now on private land. We talked for a while, the whole thing was uneventful and friendly. It's far more benign than the armed hunters I routinely get ignoring the posted signs and strolling through my property.

I don't really mind it in principle. My concern is that children much younger than those I encountered may wander onto the property, which in addition to deep ponds, a few steep 12' drops, electric fencing, livestock, and bee hives, they might get hurt. These are mostly city kids. Also, in this state, even if someone is trespassing, if they are injured there is some liability to the property owner legally. It's impractical (and not in the budget) to fence the entire property. There are signs posted, but they're not aware of their surroundings, stumbling around with their eyes glued to their phones. I've sent a request to the game developer, but those requests to be removed from the games areas of activity are so numerous, there's no foreseeable timetable if and when they decide to respond to it with any action.

Any suggestions? How would you guys deal with this?

We're in a legal gray area with this game. Do property rights extend to the placement of virtual items which don't physically exist anywhere? That's a tricky issue. Do you have the right to the conceptualization of your property by a third party? It pits property owner rights against freedom of expression, both of which need to be defended. I don't see an equitable legal outcome in this.

My sentiment is this:
The kids are actually playing outside. For many, this is the only time they've ventured out of the city and actually explored the world around them. There are simplistic undertones of hunting, tracking, trapping, geocaching, combat and defensive training (albeit it for the virtual creatures, not the player)... It's probably a good "gateway drug" into preparedness for those who otherwise wouldn't leave their city apartments. It's a good thing. I don't want to run people off. The "You damn kids get off my lawn" attitude is a pleasure I'm saving for retirement, lol.

At the same time, I don't want unannounced, inexperienced strangers blindly stumbling through a potentially dangerous situation on my land. It's not practical to continually monitor it 24/7, or try to child-proof a working farm on broad acreage. I could disrupt the cell signals to stop the game at my property line, but that's illegal in the US (no cellphone jammers allowed), and could prevent things like emergency calls if they become necessary.

Offline Cedar

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2016, 10:03:43 AM »
Hot fence? With signage that it is a hot fence? Can you only do a three or four strand on that section?

Sign which says, "All Pokemon will be shot on sight"? (half kidding)
No Trespassing Signs? I think you already have those as well...

Contact your local sheriff and inquire what they would suggest? Then that kinda files a report you have been having issues.

Can you call the PokeMonGo company and tell them to NOT put their creatures on your property? I know docks in Portland are having to do that as people are wandering onto the working docks where they are unloading ships. Ok.. as I re-read I see you have already done that.

Is there a law with the FAA or something you can do?

I am back with the hot fence and talking to the sheriff.

Cedar

Offline FrugalFannie

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2016, 10:07:55 AM »
is there a wireless security system you can put in that area? something that would be able gto sound an alarm and maybe even announce they are trespassing? This would also help with those hunters.

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2016, 10:11:56 AM »
Hot fence? With signage that it is a hot fence? Can you only do a three or four strand on that section?

Sign which says, "All Pokemon will be shot on sight"? (half kidding)
No Trespassing Signs? I think you already have those as well...

Contact your local sheriff and inquire what they would suggest? Then that kinda files a report you have been having issues.

Can you call the PokeMonGo company and tell them to NOT put their creatures on your property? I know docks in Portland are having to do that as people are wandering onto the working docks where they are unloading ships. Ok.. as I re-read I see you have already done that.

Is there a law with the FAA or something you can do?

I am back with the hot fence and talking to the sheriff.

Cedar

For years Pokemon occupied the 19th floor of my office building.  Further Nintendo's US HQ is nearby, so I've met some employees over the years.
I may pass along this perspective to some folks I know there.

As annoying as this is, it's getting a lot of city folks off the couch and walking outside.  So there is a bright side to this little fad.

I don't play it, primarily because I think it's silly and don't like the privacy implications for myself (not only do they know where my phone was, but what I was looking at).

Offline Ms. Albatross

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2016, 10:19:27 AM »
Ok, so I had my first Pokemon Go trespassers over the weekend. I'm pretty rural, didn't think it would happen around here, and I've largely ignored the hype. Now I'm trying to catch up on the issue.

Any suggestions? How would you guys deal with this?


Wow, that's a tough one. 

Although I'm not one to typically run to the various "departments of making you sad" but this an instance where I might.  I think I would go to your local law enforcement office and explain the situation and ask for their advice.  Of course, taking down the date, time and name of the person you spoke to.  I would consider contacting your local District Attorney's office and doing the same.  I might contact a local attorney.  Many will a half hour to an hour of free advice. 

Someone might still get hurt and still might sue but you can show that you got as much advice as possible and did everything reasonable to mitigate the situation.


While on this topic.  I had a funny conversation with my brother about Pokemon Go this weekend.  He is the Curator of a large military museum on a large military base.  Every month, all the department heads of the various civilian facilities meet with the Commanding General of the base.  When my brother got his turn to speak, he shared about a new exhibit they were working on and, by the way, someone had posted that front door of the museum was a Pokemon Go stop.

The General had no idea what Pokemon Go was.  My brother briefly explained it.  The General looked around at his military aides and asked them about it.  They all had at least heard of it.  One even knew about another stop on the base.  The poor General was wigging out because civilians were going running around his base playing games and taking photos!  It's hard to believe that this is the only military base where this is going on.  You'd think someone in the Pentagon would be on this and there would be S.O.P. regarding it.  (But then, again maybe not). ;)

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2016, 10:33:51 AM »
You'd think someone in the Pentagon would be on this and there would be S.O.P. regarding it.  (But then, again maybe not). ;)

Off topic, but next weekend is a large state wide boy scout event called "WashJam" (washington jamboree) that's held at Joint Base Lewis McChord.

In addition to the comical warnings against Pokemon Go, our scout troop was told to bring our own water, as the army couldn't figure out how to refill the water tanks in the parade grounds  :(

Offline I.L.W.

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2016, 09:14:09 AM »
Unfortunately, the terrain is a bit too rough for fencing around the perimeter (and too much vegetation for a hot wire). The difficult terrain is actually part of my concern.

I have reached out to the company through their provided service to report issues with locations. I'm not holding my breath for any changes anytime soon. The property is posted with the regulation "No Trespassing" signs.

I think I will file a police report (not naming the specific kids who I encountered). Just something to get it on the record that I have taken reasonable, lawful means to prevent access. It doesn't really prevent problems, but it may reduce the liability if something does happen. I'd rather not involve the police, this hardly seems like an urgent problem, but that is the mechanism for reporting these incidents.

Seems like the police are already dealing with their own pokemon issues, lol.
https://twitter.com/TimDoonanCPD/status/753651122057785344?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
https://twitter.com/LACoFDPIO/status/753637301268328448?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

These AR apps will become more prevalent as time goes on. I think the solution will have to deal with those potential future apps as well. Right now, it's one game I need to be de-listed from. What happens when there are 20,000+ games in a mobile app store which use similar technology? I can't prevent all of them by going to the company that made it and complaining. There needs to be a solution I can implement on my own.

Offline Cedar

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2016, 09:29:27 AM »
There needs to be a solution I can implement on my own.

Motion sensors with Sasquatch roars is my current vote since the fencing it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfIUhfv-yaM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9Io0JF95kE

Cedar

Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2016, 09:38:54 AM »
you say it is not feasible for fencing.
the kids are walking without looking up from phones

can you tie thick rope at chest level between two trees and tie brightly colored plastic ribbon on it, so they will bump the rope?  maybe bring them out of their phone-fog?  the bright ribbon so that it can be easily seen so as not to be taken as a booby trap.

there was something early on in the forum... oh years ago.... let me see what I can find

this might be it: http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=4259.msg44874#msg44874  I have not re-read through it all, but there MAY be ideas there that either work or spur other ideas...
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 09:46:49 AM by Morning Sunshine »

Offline I.L.W.

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2016, 09:46:11 AM »
Quote
Motion sensors with Sasquatch roars is my current vote since the fencing it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfIUhfv-yaM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9Io0JF95kE

Lol, love it. I can definitely do that. The area they are entering through is heavily wooded, it's already pretty creepy. Maybe play more on the fears of that age demographic. I'm thinking I could hit the Big and Tall section of the local goodwill and make some "Slender Man" scarecrows out in the woods, lol.

Offline David in MN

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2016, 10:07:45 AM »
When using signage it's better to be a little dishonest. "Private Property" just doesn't carry the sway of "Federally Protected Rattlesnake Breeding Ground" or "Radiation Leak Zone". Best I got.

If you're a rural person it's just one of those things you'll deal with forever.

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2016, 10:18:02 AM »
When using signage it's better to be a little dishonest. "Private Property" just doesn't carry the sway of "Federally Protected Rattlesnake Breeding Ground" or "Radiation Leak Zone". Best I got.

If you're a rural person it's just one of those things you'll deal with forever.
Love it. Or "Federally Protected Radioactive Sasquache Zone"
 ;D

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2016, 10:21:02 AM »
When using signage it's better to be a little dishonest. "Private Property" just doesn't carry the sway of "Federally Protected Rattlesnake Breeding Ground" or "Radiation Leak Zone". Best I got.

If you're a rural person it's just one of those things you'll deal with forever.

Yesterday I was planning a day hike for the scouts near an army base we'll be camping at next week.
I was using google street view to locate the trail head and found this:



It's blurry, but basically a warning for unexploded ordinance.  I don't remember that in my adult leader safety training...

Offline Ms. Albatross

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2016, 10:27:10 AM »
Motion sensors with Sasquatch roars is my current vote since the fencing it out.

Cedar

Lol, love it. I can definitely do that. The area they are entering through is heavily wooded, it's already pretty creepy. Maybe play more on the fears of that age demographic. I'm thinking I could hit the Big and Tall section of the local goodwill and make some "Slender Man" scarecrows out in the woods, lol.

Those may keep the little ones out but the Pre-teens and Teens will come to investigate in droves...

Offline Cedar

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2016, 10:31:10 AM »
Those may keep the little ones out but the Pre-teens and Teens will come to investigate in droves...

Or these guys http://british-bigfoot.tripod.com/britishbigfootresearchcenter/id3.html

But what about the recordings just saying it is private property, and they will get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Talk to their pocketbooks.

Cedar

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2016, 03:18:22 PM »
I'm on the fence about this one.

Part of me says to file a police report and let law enforcement know that you've taken reasonable measures to avoid this situation, such as contacting the developer and posting no trespassing signs.

On the other hand, if you do file a police report and then something happens a week later... an overzealous lawyer might use the fact that you were aware these kids were trespassing (police report demonstrates your knowledge) on your property against you.



Ugh... since you've contacted the developer and there's already record of your knowledge out there, I'd probably file the police report. Make sure to mention that part to law enforcement though. 

99.9% chance that nothing will ever come of this, but best to do what you can to cover your ass just in case.

Offline Carl

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2016, 04:21:51 PM »
FREE TRIAL of the latest gadget....POKEBLOCKER ...the Digital POKEMON BLOCKER...

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2016, 09:06:10 PM »
Any suggestions? How would you guys deal with this?

We're in a legal gray area with this game. Do property rights extend to the placement of virtual items which don't physically exist anywhere? That's a tricky issue. Do you have the right to the conceptualization of your property by a third party? It pits property owner rights against freedom of expression, both of which need to be defended. I don't see an equitable legal outcome in this.

Did you ask them if the pokemon there were any good?  If so, I would probably catch them myself. Not only would this remove them from being hunted by others, but pokemon accounts can be worth quit a bit of scratch.  :)  Or I would barter access to some responsible youths, e.g. they can hunt pokemon there in exchange for some token work like picking up litter or tree branches.  Either way, the pokemon wouldnt be there to attract strangers to that location.

The legal question is interesting.  It is typically considered trespassing for someone to capture images on your land as it is misuse of your property.  But it must be clearly marked as private property.  But it is legal to capture images of your property from public areas of as long as there isnt a reasonable expectation of privacy (e.g. peering into bedrooms and bathrooms).

Offline r_w

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2016, 09:29:09 PM »
There is a mall nearby, well WAS a mall.  Currently being demolished.  Was public location, not anymore.  Several sets of kids have jumped the fence to hunt Pokemon, including some at 2 am.  Now part of the guard duty is to sweep for Pokemon  ::)

Offline I.L.W.

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2016, 09:57:36 PM »
Did you ask them if the pokemon there were any good?  If so, I would probably catch them myself. Not only would this remove them from being hunted by others, but pokemon accounts can be worth quit a bit of scratch.  :)  Or I would barter access to some responsible youths, e.g. they can hunt pokemon there in exchange for some token work like picking up litter or tree branches.  Either way, the pokemon wouldnt be there to attract strangers to that location.

Quote
The legal question is interesting.  It is typically considered trespassing for someone to capture images on your land as it is misuse of your property.  But it must be clearly marked as private property.  But it is legal to capture images of your property from public areas of as long as there isnt a reasonable expectation of privacy (e.g. peering into bedrooms and bathrooms).

Lol, selling Pokemon Hunting leases, I like it :)

I think the app believe's my property is a nearby park. GPS translation to my house address was glitched for years, with many a lost pizza man ending up in the park looking for a house a half-mile away. I've sent in corrections to all the major mapping companies, but with my understanding of how the game works (placing th e"good" pokemon in public locations like parks), I think they may be working with an older GPS data set.

I hadn't considered the camera aspect... that's interesting. Laws are a lot more specific about the use of cameras on private property. I'm not sure if there's a way to spin that to my advantage (the physical presence of the player on clearly marked private and restricted land is already trespassing), the use of the camera may make things a bit more complex legally (for better or worse).

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2016, 10:19:43 PM »
I think it is interesting how the media portrays the system.  Most report that what the system does is project virtual entities onto the real world.  But exactly the opposite happens technically and legally.  That is, the game takes representations of the real world (images from camera and roads/building positons from gps) and puts them into a virtual pokemon world.  So the pertinent question is what laws govern the capturing of images and position data.  For images that would be the first amendment and the corresponding privacy rulings.

But isnt it fascinating that many people believe the images on their smartphones are "real"?

Offline The Spartan Dad

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2016, 05:34:54 AM »
But isnt it fascinating that many people believe the images on their smartphones are "real"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3ApchVRjrQ
Not sure if this is real but is pretty funny. Hope you haven't run into anyone like this yet ILW.

Offline I.L.W.

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2016, 06:49:44 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3ApchVRjrQ
Not sure if this is real but is pretty funny. Hope you haven't run into anyone like this yet ILW.

I wish she had shown up. If that was the kind of person it attracted... well, it would go a long way toward explaining the popularity of the game. I assure you, if beautiful women in their 20s who were willing to believe anything just started showing up at my house, I wouldn't be worried about keeping them out, I'd be petitioning the state to  install an 18 lane highway to my door. :)


Offline Cedar

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2016, 08:44:54 AM »
Now part of the guard duty is to sweep for Pokemon  ::)

I watch the scanner and it is interesting to see all the comments from Oregon police about pokemon on calls.

- BG Police reports a girl walked into the grill of his cruiser with her nose in her phone playing PokemonGO
- "Someone in a red Mustang is holding up traffic because they're playing Pokemon Go."
- "I've got about 50 people, trying to clear them out, playing Pokémon"
- I'll be out with a large group of Pokemon masters.
- Reckless vehicle speeding and slowing down. Lane travel and swerving. Playing that POKEY MAN game on their phones
- "group outside the D5 office. They were catching Pokemon and they have been warned off.
- "They are playing this game called Pokey something and it makes you walk around the city to collect points?" (I understand this officer, I did not know what PokemomGo was either until I read it on the scanner a few weeks ago- Cedar)

I know trespassing players have made the news multiple times in the Portland area. One of my friends plays it and I give her a bad time all the time about it. She can be totally oblivious in her concentration of smucking the Pokethingy with the ball thingy.

Like AngryBirds, maybe the newness will wear off soon. I don't know anyone who plays that anymore (maybe as they are playing PokemonGo?)

It is like this weird social experiment thing with the PokeMonGo thing I think.

Cedar

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2016, 12:19:02 PM »
I might have already posted this in another thread (or maybe it was on another forum), but this Pokeman thing is ridiculous.

The at home daycare my daughter goes too is located down the street from a public park. Prior to Pokeman being released, the parking lot to the park would maybe be half full every day, with joggers/bikers on the trails.

These days? Entire parking lot is full EVERY evening when I'm going to pick my daughter up. What do these kids do when they realize there are no parking spaces? They end up parking like idiots all down the sidestreet the daycare is located on.

There have been two separate occasions where my daycare lady had to call police and get cars towed because these lazy idiots parked in her private driveway (no spots available on the street) and blocked her car in. Her neighbors have had to do the same thing.

(I'm sure that whatever towing company it is that gets the call, loves it)

I hope this fad runs out, because it's really becoming a nuisance. I have no problem with people playing the game, but have some respect for others property when you're out roaming the world.

Offline Skunkeye

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2016, 11:49:14 PM »
Sounds like your No Trespassing signs aren't "Deliverance" enough.  The effectiveness of such signs is proportional to how unstable and inbred the reader thinks the signmaker is.  Store-bought plastic signs?  Ignored.  Barely legible spray-painted scrawl on weathered plywood or faded old road sign, preferably with misspelled words or a missing letter or two?  Much more effective.

Best practice is if you hang a few creepy, half-burned, homemade dolls on the sign.  That's better than a fence.




Offline machinisttx

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2016, 10:09:42 AM »
Check state and local requirements for posting your land. In Texas, there are a number of things that meet legal requirements, though some are little known because they are rarely if ever used. File a report with law enforcement, and contact the game developers to inform them that you will be prosecuting anyone and everyone who comes onto your legally posted private property. It may also be wise to consult with an attorney to determine any legal action that may be pursued against the company for providing an incentive to trespass on private property. Actually, it may be better to consult with an attorney first, and then have the attorney contact them in order to create a paper trail.

There are several wireless internet capable game cameras that can be remotely monitored.

Chances are that if it comes to prosecuting trespassers, it will only be necessary to do so once or twice before folks get the message. I suspect that the game company will find it in their best interest to be more respectful of property lines if they face a possibility of a few million landowners pursing legal action.

Offline undaunted6

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2016, 10:46:12 AM »
I would first download the app to see what Pokémon Go "PokéStops and Pokémon gyms" you may have on or near your land. If there are none, then it would be useless to worry about a particular location more than another - they randomly generate "everywhere". If you do have a PokeStop, then it can only be activated in game by being within a certain distance from that point - typically 50 meters. If you have one, then you can bet that there will be a path worn to that point and back out.

As for the military base - I'm in Afghanistan and found it hilarious that on my base, there is a PokéStop and another point for something else. The data for the Pokémon Go is based off another game called Ingress and usually utilizes historic sites and public places for its points. This was a scheme by Google to get user feedback in massive scale to provide data points creating a better map feature with lots of significant points.

I agree with the chest high colored rope to warn a kid if you have a PokéStop and crazy Deliverance signs, but again pointless if it's just randomly generated. I've heard of nobody having success having their site de-listed at this time - including the Pentagon and other high security locations (like my base). 

That's all I have time for, I have to go catch Pikachu. j/k :)

Offline surfivor

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2016, 12:37:26 PM »

Local Pokémon Go players offended by Hallowell sign calling them morons

http://www.centralmaine.com/2016/08/23/local-pokemon-go-players-offended-by-hallowell-sign-calling-them-morons/



"Patterson said he posted the signs Saturday because he was frustrated by having to repeatedly tell people that the site is private property from Water Street to the Kennebec riverbank. He has owned the building for about eight years, he said.

“I’m very tired of people trespassing on my property chasing Pokémons,” he said, adding that his tenants, who park at the rear of the building, have had their cars blocked. He said unauthorized people have been on the back deck and on the staircase.

“I’ve approached many people already and asked them to stop, and nobody actually did it,” he said. “What is it exactly they would like from me? Now everybody’s got hurt feelings and now they want me to change my wording on the sign.”


Offline archer

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Re: Land Management Advice Sought - Damned Pokemon.
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2016, 01:18:32 PM »
poor pokemon players cannot trespass..... idiots.