Author Topic: Automation, Elimination of Jobs, and Universal Basic Income  (Read 14032 times)

Offline David in MN

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Re: Automation, Elimination of Jobs, and Universal Basic Income
« Reply #60 on: November 21, 2017, 05:09:41 PM »
Here's a creepy thought...

The average inmate costs taxpayers $31k per year. If a UBI of $25k kept people from crime...? That's not including the cost to the taxpayer of the police, courts, etc. I'm not feeling up to creating a spreadsheet to figure the cost per criminal and how it amortizes (if many serve short terms the cost to the system is higher) but there's a case to be made a comfortable man doesn't do bad things.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Automation, Elimination of Jobs, and Universal Basic Income
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2017, 03:39:33 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/25/scotland-universal-basic-income-councils-pilot-scheme

Scotland united in curiosity as councils trial universal basic income

Four local authorities tasked with turning utopian fantasy into reality with backing of first minister and multi-party support


Universal basic income is, according to its many and various supporters, an idea whose time has come. The deceptively simple notion of offering every citizen a regular payment without means testing or requiring them to work for it has backers as disparate as Mark Zuckerberg, Stephen Hawking, Caroline Lucas and Richard Branson. Ed Miliband chose the concept to launch his ideas podcast Reasons to be Cheerful in the autumn.

But it is in Scotland that four councils face the task of turning basic income from a utopian fantasy to contemporary reality as they build the first pilot schemes in the UK, with the support of a £250,000 grant announced by the Scottish government last month and the explicit support of Nicola Sturgeon.

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: Automation, Elimination of Jobs, and Universal Basic Income
« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2017, 06:47:54 AM »
I still have not read anything to convince me UBI has any merit.  In the Scotland proposal they are not sure how they will pay for it, thus the feasibility studies, but think perhaps eliminating the personal tax allowance.  Others think government will shrink. In my experience working for govt: No freaking way will it be cheaper. Any time the govt pays out ANY type of benefit they will create a massive bureaucracy to manage it.  Name one benefit program that does not have massive numbers of govt employees, buildings, computer systems, benefits, retirements, travel expenses, per diem, etc.

And most of these UBI proposals are talking about $5,000-$10,000/yr.  I doubt that comes anywhere near what current welfare recipients receive in monetary assistance, food stamps, rent/utility assistance, "earned income credit" (!!!!! for not working), free health care, etc.  So UBI cannot possibly replace all of welfare expenses and programs so you end up with existing welfare bureaucracy as well as a new one for UBI.  I guarantee you that for every $1 paid in UBI, the govt will soak up $2-$3 for overhead expenses.  Govt is the absolute least efficient means to distribute charity ever invented.

Then there is the noble assumption that with UBI the masses will be inspired to work those cool part-time jobs!  Right.  Since retiring I have been doing some part-time work to stay active and let em tell you, 1/2 - 2/3 of folks working these slightly above minimum wage jobs are barely doing to the least possible to stay employed.  Many, many of them are so damn lazy they get let go job after job.  I suspect with UBI a large percentage will quit working altogether and try to eek out a life on just UBI and sporadic jobs.

Then you have the drug abusers.  UBI would be a dandy gift to them.  Cut down on crime?  Hahahaha!  How many addicts do you know?  How many of them will use at the same level if they have more regular income without working for it?  Exactly, none.  they will buy more drugs with that money, then go out and steal as they have been for even more drugs. Sure, let's just feed the addiction, that will cut crime rates. No.

I am really surprised that thoughtful people here seem to think that "free" money can mathematically work out, and that the majority of the masses will take advantage of it to produce even more.  UBI is a pipe dream that may look promising in very  limited, carefully chosen case studies.  but when you release it to the masses?  CRASH!  Look at "free" health care?  Do people use it for greater preventative care and get into better fitness and activity to be healthier?  Hell no.  It means they can eat even more cheese puffs and coke and any disease or injury will be treated and costs picked up by those stupid people who insist on working and producing.

Sorry, I just do not see the dreamy allure of UBI.  It seems like another pipe dream of people who don't want to work but still live comfortably at the expense of some magic group who will work their asses off so the majority can coast in comfort.  Work, producing, service and trade are part of a responsible life and has dignity.  Living off the labor of others is unnatural and unhealthy except for the hard cases of orphans and widows, and I would say disabled war vets.  An able bodied man ought to be able to produce more value than it takes for him to live on (surplus).  There are many problems with the oligarchy of multinationals gobbling up so much of the commerce and jobs, as well as govt itself.  But a UBI does not solve those issues and in some ways makes them worse.

osubuckeye4

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Re: Automation, Elimination of Jobs, and Universal Basic Income
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2017, 08:21:15 AM »
Universal "free money" can't work in a consumer driven society.

In order for a UBI based on fiat currency to work, we need to completely change the nature of the economy from one driven by consumerism, to one driven by practical sustainability.

That's not happening any time soon...

Offline redrider

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Re: Automation, Elimination of Jobs, and Universal Basic Income
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2017, 09:17:18 AM »
Very good post, NWPilgram. I don't see it either.

Karma for you.

rr

Offline Carl

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Bankrupt California city wants to give a universal basic income to resident
« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2018, 04:15:01 PM »
Stockton, California, is testing a universal basic income for a select group of families to see whether the program could evolve into a broader policy, Fox News reports.

How will it work?
The plan is to give $500 per month to several dozen families, and then to monitor them and see how the money is used and how it impacts “self-esteem and identity.”

The money will come mostly from The Economic Security Project, which is donating $1 million toward the experiment.

Why are they doing this?
Mayor Michael Tubbs believes it will help improve the lives of recipients in a city where one in four residents lives below the poverty line.

“I think it will make people work better and smarter and harder, and also be able to do things like spend time with their families because we’re not robots,” Tubbs said. “We’re not just designed to work all day and run a rat race.”

Stockton went bankrupt in 2012, and many of its residents struggled financially as home prices increased and wages stayed the same.

What are opponents saying?
Robert Rector, welfare expert at the Heritage Foundation, said a universal basic income is the wrong response to failed immigration policies.

“Essentially, it says we will let the illegals come in and take all the jobs and then we’ll put American workers onto a kind of welfare reservation where they can live out their lives on that reservation,” Rector said.

Other critics say moving from traditional welfare to UBI could be detrimental to the poor, and give money to those who don’t need it as much.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/02/07/bankrupt-california-city-wants-to-give-a-universal-basic-income-to-residents



Offline Carl

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Re: Bankrupt California city wants to give a universal basic income to resident
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2018, 04:15:38 PM »
  This just sounds like a dumb idea.

LVWood

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Re: Bankrupt California city wants to give a universal basic income to resident
« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2018, 04:16:14 PM »
A broke Kalifornia city giving its citizens money every month. What could possibly go wrong???

Offline fritz_monroe

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Re: Bankrupt California city wants to give a universal basic income to resident
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2018, 04:26:39 PM »
Supposedly all the money is from a private party, I think it was one of the Facebook co-founders. 

I suspect that in a year (or however long this experiment is scheduled for) this will be a dismal failure, but it will be tried again.  Or it will just disappear and we won't hear of it again.

Offline Carl

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Re: Bankrupt California city wants to give a universal basic income to resident
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2018, 04:34:16 PM »
  I wouldn't think the legal weed would effect them so quickly.

LVWood

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Re: Bankrupt California city wants to give a universal basic income to resident
« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2018, 04:57:48 PM »
Supposedly all the money is from a private party, I think it was one of the Facebook co-founders. 

I suspect that in a year (or however long this experiment is scheduled for) this will be a dismal failure, but it will be tried again.  Or it will just disappear and we won't hear of it again.

Sure, the money is bound to run out.
Now Stockton, tell that to the people you were giving it to.
Sorry, no more free money.

Online surfivor

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Re: Bankrupt California city wants to give a universal basic income to resident
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2018, 05:08:49 PM »
How about give them a plot of land in the area to grow some vegetables ? CA seems to be a great place for gardening I would think. But they would never do such a thing

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Bankrupt California city wants to give a universal basic income to resident
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2018, 05:09:44 PM »
Merging this with the Automation, Elimination of Jobs, and Universal Basic Income thread, where this plan was discussed a few months ago...

(See Reply #49 and following posts, back on page 2 of this thread.)

Offline Carl

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Re: Bankrupt California city wants to give a universal basic income to resident
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2018, 05:18:09 PM »
Merging this with the Automation, Elimination of Jobs, and Universal Basic Income thread, where this plan was discussed a few months ago...

(See Reply #49 and following posts, back on page 2 of this thread.)

Hey...Thanks Mr Bill, but now they are testing the 'punch line'

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: Bankrupt California city wants to give a universal basic income to resident
« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2018, 08:59:07 PM »
Stockton, California, is testing a universal basic income for a select group of families to see whether the program could evolve into a broader policy, Fox News reports.

How will it work?
The plan is to give $500 per month to several dozen families, and then to monitor them and see how the money is used and how it impacts “self-esteem and identity.”

The money will come mostly from The Economic Security Project, which is donating $1 million toward the experiment.

Why are they doing this?
Mayor Michael Tubbs believes it will help improve the lives of recipients in a city where one in four residents lives below the poverty line.

I think it will make people work better and smarter and harder, and also be able to do things like spend time with their families because we’re not robots,” Tubbs said. “We’re not just designed to work all day and run a rat race.”

Stockton went bankrupt in 2012, and many of its residents struggled financially as home prices increased and wages stayed the same.
...
https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/02/07/bankrupt-california-city-wants-to-give-a-universal-basic-income-to-residents

Yeah, free money tends to inspire people to work harder and smarter. [/sarcasm]  Booze and weed sales will likely skyrocket.

Offline Carl

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Re: Automation, Elimination of Jobs, and Universal Basic Income
« Reply #75 on: February 08, 2018, 04:51:13 AM »
  It will also support the arts ....(tattoo shops)