Author Topic: Thug Avoidance  (Read 23264 times)

Goatdog62

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Thug Avoidance
« on: June 01, 2009, 07:00:48 PM »
I'm going to start a series of Personal Security threads. I'm just rattling this off of my head, no notes. Feel free to comment.

This one is oriented towards women but really applies to all. It assumes you are not armed but you do have pepper spray. You do have pepper spray, right? I see NO reason not to. Get the stuff that is in aerosol form and is in at least two million Scoville Heat Units. The smaller the container, the more likely you'll have it with you. Test fire it outside, shake it once a month, and ignore the expiration date.


You have three options to protect yourself from a threat:

Avoid
Evade
Counter


Avoid:
1.  Know your place of work, your residence and anywhere else you frequent. Be familiar with exits and their status (locked/unlocked), light switches, where the phones are, normal noises, etc
2.  Always pay attention to what is happening around you. Sit where you can see people coming and going. What car has pulled up outside? Is that really the meter reader? How come the dog down the street is barking? Who is this guy fidgeting in the lobby?
3.  What are the indicators that things are right or wrong? Why did that guy silently close his car door? Those two guys are staring at the convenience store clerk.
4.  Always have an alternate plan. Change your routes, departure times, arrival times, anything that makes you predictable. Leave escape room around your car at redlights. Always "what if" yourself. What if I someone comes from behind that dumpster?
 
Successful avoidance may never be evident to you. If you weren't attacked today because you drove in on a different route, you'd probably never know it. I won't go into the usual stuff about securing your purses, wearing sensible shoes or avoiding dark areas, alleys, stairwells, etc. Do limit your valuables. Avoid public restrooms in shady places. Stay awake and alert on buses and subways. If you take a taxi, sit up front with the driver (especially if overseas). A dog in/at your residence is a big help, even just as early warning. Install dead bolts.


Evade:
  You sense something is wrong (great example in one of Jacks podcasts about walking down the street with his wife) or;
  You see suspicious activity.
 
You start looking for your escape options.  Conceal your pepper spray in your hand, thumb on the trigger. Walk inside that store instead of towards that group of hoodlums. With a criminal it is better to establish eye contact. This eye contact needs to convey the message "I see you, I know you're up to no good, it won't be as easy as you think, you'll regret it." Criminals want easy targets.
Drive to the nearest police station, fire hall, courthouse, hospital, bank (daytime of course). Any place that you think someone might help you or at least has known surveillance cameras.

Some pre-atttack indicators in a one-on-one confrontation;
Strained voice.
Repeated phrases (verbal commands possibly).
Sweating (no apparent reason).
Mouth breathing (unless he's from West Virginia).
Tightening, clenching jaw.
Weight shifting.
Fist clenching.
Shoulders rolling forward, bending of knees, ducking of chin.
Target glance.
Hand distraction

Multiple Attackers may;
Position themselves relative to each other.
Glance at each other.
Use unusual body language or terminology.


If you didn't avoid and you couldn't evade then:
Counter

(on foot):
  You are confronted and attack is imminent. Don't just stand there. Move and scream loudly. If cornered, use your weak hand to hold off the attacker while flipping the safe off your pepper spray with your thumb. Keep it in your fist with the nozzle exposed, that way it is harder to knock out of your hand. Spray one or two short blasts into the assailants face, you want to hit mucus membranes. His eyes will slam shut, he'll cough, he'll choke, he won't be happy. Realize that a collateral amount will hit you, but as long as you didn't take a dose in the eyes, you will be okay. Do something simple like a shin rake and foot stomp...it works. Don't wait around to admire your work. Run to safe haven.

(in vehicle): Turn right or left, u-turn, or reverse out, practice that there are techniques for doing this. Don't be afraid to run over the bastard (you better be sure you feel your life is in danger). More drastically, you can ram the rear 20% (preferred) or front 20% of their blocking vehicle and drive thru if blocked in by the bad guys car. Drive into a house or storefront, bail and run out the back door, down the alley, and through the next yard.

Don't stop and don't give up.

There is a whole lot more to this, but I have some stuff to do. I will add more if anyone is interested.

Goatdog

Offline Buffy

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2009, 07:10:30 PM »
I'm interested.

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2009, 09:16:39 PM »
I'm interested.

Me too.  (At least to pass the info on to my wife.  But it ought to be useful for nerdy non-athletic guys like me too.)

...You do have pepper spray, right? I see NO reason not to. ...

Asthma.  My wife's got a mild case.  Can't risk using a weapon that might possibly incapacitate or kill her.

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2009, 09:26:20 PM »
Me too.  (At least to pass the info on to my wife.  But it ought to be useful for nerdy non-athletic guys like me too.)

Asthma.  My wife's got a mild case.  Can't risk using a weapon that might possibly incapacitate or kill her.


It won't. I used it on over 100 suspects. Well, that's the number that I documented anyway ;D

Several had verifiable asthma. I also teach it on a regular basis, the doc always clears the asthmatic people to get sprayed. Besides, she would only get a whiff of it if she points it in the right direction.

I FIRMLY believe that it is a great equalizer. It works on dogs too.

Offline mash

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2009, 09:58:25 PM »
Excellent stuff goatdog, keep 'em coming.

Printing this off for the missus and my daughter.

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2009, 10:03:33 PM »
Excellent stuff goatdog, keep 'em coming.

Printing this off for the missus and my daughter.

I'll add more soon. I keep meaning to break loose from the forum for a few days and write more of my book, but you guys have me trapped here!

Offline The Wilderness

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2009, 11:03:16 PM »
I'll add more soon. I keep meaning to break loose from the forum for a few days and write more of my book, but you guys have me trapped here!

Our evil plan is working  ;)

TW

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2009, 11:13:06 PM »
Tasers
  If you decide to go that route, I don't have an issue with it but most tasers suck. Yeah, they work when in contact with the bad guy, as you hold it on him. As soon as you break contact the thug usually quickly recovers. Then he's pissed off. Pepper spray works for at least 15 minutes (eye blast) and stings for hours. Hell, more than once after a spraying incident, I visited the mens room to do my business and well...watch where you touch yourself. :o Even soap and water doesn't get it all.

Anyway, back to tasers. We did a SWAT call once where the suspect had been shooting out his windows at nothing in particular, but dangerous just the same. After hours of negotiations with this drunk, we weren't getting anywhere. The entry team I was on approached from the #2 corner towards his garage (no windows could see us at this angle). The five of us were fully armed, and armored, but I was designated to carry the M-26 AirTaser as my primary, just in case that was all the force that was necessary. A ruse was used to get him to come outside. He came out the side door, yapping on the phone, and out went the two probes from my M26 at about 12 feet. He immedialtely siezed up and hit the ground hard. The M26 only stayed on 5 seconds and try as we might to get him cuffed we weren't fast enough. As soon as the current stopped flowing he began fighting back like a newly circumsized Brahma. I zapped him again and the 5 second bust was long enough to get him cuffed. He begged me not to do it again. I didn't. There was no reason to.

The point I'm trying to make is this. If you buy a taser, buy a good one. You can't buy an M26 as a civilian. Hell, I can't get one for myself. You can buy a Taser C2. see link;

http://www.taser.com/PRODUCTS/CONSUMERS/Pages/C2.aspx

The Taser C2 works like the M26. It shoots out two prongs (up to 15 feet away) and zaps the ass monkey for 30 seconds! That is enough time to drop the device and run like hell. The company will even replace the unit for free if you use it to prevent a crime. Just file a police report. You don't even have to worry too much about shot placement, any hit on him will bring him down, even if only one prong hits. Each prong penetrates an inch of clothing too. If you are worried about shot placement they even have a laser version.We watched a video where it brings down a full-grown buffalo in less than a second. I stuck one prong of an M26 under my shoelace on my boot and let the other prong dangle. Had my pal turn it on...fell down immediately.

They are down to $199 or so now. Not as small a package as pepper spray, but not as big as a gun. I still recommend you have a gun but realize that gun laws and personal preferences may leave you without that option.

Don't think the handheld stun guns are worthy. I think this Taser C2 or pepper spray is better. This taser will only take out one assailant at a time with the cartridge (unless they are holding hands ;D), but you can hold the exposed contacts from the unit itself onto suspect B and get him too. Also, believe it or not, if you've already pepper sprayed the guy and then decide to tase him there is a chance he will burst into flames as the pepper spray (Oleoresin Capsicum) has accelerants like propane, butane, and alcohol in it. I'm just saying...

Goatdog
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 11:15:08 PM by Goatdog62 »

Offline johnnyb_good30

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2009, 12:19:15 AM »
so what age do u think is the ok age for spray??my girl is 10

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2009, 04:50:45 AM »
I gave some to a responsible 13 year old on an "as needed" basis. In other words, she didn't have it day to day, but if I dropped her off at the movies or something similar I'd give her a can. I train all my children on it though.

Remember, it isn't allowed in 99% of school districts, so don't let her get in trouble. If it was allowed, my kids would have it there.

A 10 year old in my house would get a whistle and some defensive tactics training. YMMV

good question
Goatdog

SuperUltraJulie

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2009, 08:00:18 AM »
Great thread GD. ...looking forward to reading more!

homeshow

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2009, 08:09:12 AM »


 believe it or not, if you've already pepper sprayed the guy and then decide to tase him there is a chance he will burst into flames as the pepper spray (Oleoresin Capsicum) has accelerants like propane, butane, and alcohol in it. I'm just saying...

Goatdog

you season the perp then BBQ his ass? ;D    oh yeah +1 definetely

Offline ColdHaven

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2009, 08:20:15 AM »
+1 Really good info. Can't wait to hear more.

I remember someone posted a link to a site awhile back to a gun that shoots balls of pepper spray-like stuff. Kind of like a paintball gun with bite.

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2009, 02:59:33 PM »
+1 Really good info. Can't wait to hear more.

I remember someone posted a link to a site awhile back to a gun that shoots balls of pepper spray-like stuff. Kind of like a paintball gun with bite.

They shoot pepper balls, they burst on your torso and that rather quickly gets in your nose, mouth, and a small amount in the eyes. Pepper ball guns are cool but they have limited usage in personal security because they are pretty big, you might keep one in your car if you want. They have some use for cops in incapacitating folks who are acting a too squirrelly, the mentally ill and the drunks/druggies. Anytime you have an option other than using a firearm it's a good thing. Shooting the mentally ill always draws an uproar from the masses, even if they are just as deadly as other people.

Offline Beetle

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2009, 03:43:44 PM »
    Someday I'll have to figure out how to transfer the video of my tasering to the internet. I agree I would rather be tased than OC'd, definitely quicker recovery. Although I can still fight when sprayed whereas I am owned by the Taser.

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2009, 04:06:40 PM »
    Someday I'll have to figure out how to transfer the video of my tasering to the internet. I agree I would rather be tased than OC'd, definitely quicker recovery. Although I can still fight when sprayed whereas I am owned by the Taser.

That's because, as an LEO, you know it is life or death and will worry about the pain in your eyes later. A taser only grips you as long as there is current. For a cop, since we hang around and cuff the guy, that is acceptable. Most women don't want to be only a few seconds away when he recovers.

Even if he has you in his grasp and doesn't let go when you spray him, at least he will be seriously reduced in effectiveness. Still recommend self-defense methods as follow up to tasing or spraying.

In an early podcast, Jack recommended a larger pepper spray container. Not saying he's wrong. In my experience, I just know that the bigger it is the less likely people will carry it and the easier it is to remove from your fist. A 1oz can still has about 20 one second bursts in it.




Offline archer

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2009, 04:40:50 PM »
In an early podcast, Jack recommended a larger pepper spray container. Not saying he's wrong. In my experience, I just know that the bigger it is the less likely people will carry it and the easier it is to remove from your fist. A 1oz can still has about 20 one second bursts in it.

I'd just give them the full canister if there was only 1 bad guy.. What are your thoughts on that?

Offline Beetle

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2009, 04:44:46 PM »
    I wouldn't suggest it more is not better with OC and would give you a chance at a follow up shot if you missed the first time or if he had a friend.

Offline Beetle

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2009, 04:47:42 PM »
   I've heard word that if you use your C2 taser on someone attacking you and loose it running away, Taser will replace it free of charge. Confirm it first though.

Offline Remington

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2009, 05:03:57 PM »
I'd just give them the full canister if there was only 1 bad guy.. What are your thoughts on that?

You can get around 10 shots out of a large canister of OC spray. If two shots do not deter the attacker then the rest of the can will not make it more effective. Bailey was correct that by reserving the canister you still have a weapon.

We were trained to deliver a three second burst across the brow area of the face, and to follow up with a second if required.

Goatdog62, very good post! Quick question though: why do you say to ignore the expiration/production date on OC spray?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 05:07:04 PM by Remington »

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2009, 06:03:52 PM »
You can get around 10 shots out of a large canister of OC spray. If two shots do not deter the attacker then the rest of the can will not make it more effective. Bailey was correct that by reserving the canister you still have a weapon.

We were trained to deliver a three second burst across the brow area of the face, and to follow up with a second if required.

Goatdog62, very good post! Quick question though: why do you say to ignore the expiration/production date on OC spray?

I can get 20 one second bursts of aerosol pepper spray from a 1 oz can. Two short bursts are alll that is recommended, there is no point is using more and you could just add to your own misery (collateral damage).

Yes, C2 Taser is replaced free of charge if used in a police report documented attack.

Expiration date is required by law, but product doesn't need one. Oleoresin capsicum does not go bad, it actually gets a little more "pungent." As long as you can feel it moving when you shake the canister and test fire it once in a while, it will be fine. No need to waste money.

Offline Remington

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2009, 09:16:34 PM »
Expiration date is required by law, but product doesn't need one. Oleoresin capsicum does not go bad, it actually gets a little more "pungent." As long as you can feel it moving when you shake the canister and test fire it once in a while, it will be fine. No need to waste money.

Outstanding. My main concern was that the can would loose effectiveness.

Now, assuming regular testing of the canister (say yearly), when would it be a good idea to get a new can, and use up the remainder of the old stuff for practice?

And, do you have a preference for the "stream" or "spray" varieties of OC for most self defense applications?

Thanks!

Winchester32

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2009, 09:29:58 PM »
    Someday I'll have to figure out how to transfer the video of my tasering to the internet. I agree I would rather be tased than OC'd, definitely quicker recovery. Although I can still fight when sprayed whereas I am owned by the Taser.


<<Waves a $10 bill around!>>  Ask DEV to help, I'd pay money to see that!!!! LOL!

 ;D

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2009, 09:33:18 PM »
Outstanding. My main concern was that the can would loose effectiveness.

Now, assuming regular testing of the canister (say yearly), when would it be a good idea to get a new can, and use up the remainder of the old stuff for practice?

And, do you have a preference for the "stream" or "spray" varieties of OC for most self defense applications?

Thanks!

Good question.

I pull it when it gets below half and have my kids practice on the neighbors cat... ;D Just kidding PETA!

I do have them deploy it on a tree with a target stuck on it. Lets me make sure they are doing it right.

I have always believed that the cone-shaped mist is the best delivery system. It fans out and makes it real hard to miss the jerkwad. Under stress, aiming the stream requires a steady hand. I don't think the foam is good, except in jail cells on cornered prisoners, because it has very limited range. The advantage to the foam is that it only affects the guy you spray, no mist floating around making others cough. That keeps the jail riots down. The stream has limited mist blowby also, but it really does require a good aim.

This stuff can cause panic in crowds. I answered a call involving a major bar fight, at least 10 units responded and we had our hands full in a club that had at least 150 people (drinking) in it. We had it under control when an overzealous newer cop encountered one of the troublemakers who wouldn't leave the premises. Instead of using an empty hand soft or hard  technique, or even a baton soft technique, he went for his OC. It immediately made everyone trample towards the door like the place was on fire. That caused the crowd to get wild again and more people ended up in the hoosegow.

The stuff, used responsibly, is a great tool when a gun isn't a viable option.

Offline johnnyb_good30

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2009, 10:27:05 PM »
ok i got ya. i started her off in the 1st grade with a cell. Lets just say thay said no it was not alowed. Lets just say after some words with the school she is now finshing the 4th grade and still carrys it every day.

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2009, 10:40:06 PM »
ok i got ya. i started her off in the 1st grade with a cell. Lets just say thay said no it was not alowed. Lets just say after some words with the school she is now finshing the 4th grade and still carrys it every day.

Way to put your foot down. My girls carry a cell to school also. It is against the rules but their safety is MY job. They have managed to keep it hidden for some years now. I like teaching them sneaky things.  ;)

Offline Beetle

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2009, 10:58:02 PM »
    The only thing I would add between foam and aerosol is wind, If your in a windy place like Chicago Foam might be better. We use foam to avoid cross contamination. If your inside say an ER and you end up contaminating the place with aerosol I wouldn't trust the next cup of coffee that nurse offers ya...lol

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2009, 11:06:00 PM »
    The only thing I would add between foam and aerosol is wind, If your in a windy place like Chicago Foam might be better. We use foam to avoid cross contamination. If your inside say an ER and you end up contaminating the place with aerosol I wouldn't trust the next cup of coffee that nurse offers ya...lol

You have a point Bailey. I never had the wind come into play because I generally sprayed it point blank while rolling on the ground with the clown.

Boy, if I'd ever used OC in a hospital I'd still be hearing about it. That would be a big wrong answer. Courthouses, schools, etc. Better use something else. We were issued the mist, didn't have a choice back then. I've had opp to use all kinds since (we had a fire extinguisher sized one for the postgame UT v Florida mobs) but still prefer the mist. The size i;m talking about is just slightly larger than a chapstick, don't know if foam is available that small. If it is, I might carry both. ;)

Offline Beetle

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2009, 11:15:36 PM »
Don't forget Kubaton's and car keys. Even as big as I am I always walk with a key between my fingers, but then I like going for the eyes.

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2009, 11:18:41 PM »
Yeah, i teach a lot of that too. Hope to expand into that as I continue with the Personal Security threads.

Too busy to make videos and other media.

Must get back to writing my book...