Author Topic: Thug Avoidance  (Read 23482 times)

Offline Sister Wolf

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2009, 11:32:14 PM »
Do you offer classes?  I'd pay for that.  Really.

Offline Beetle

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2009, 11:35:03 PM »

<<Waves a $10 bill around!>>  Ask DEV to help, I'd pay money to see that!!!! LOL!

 ;D
    Only Ten???? I'm way worth much more!!!

Winchester32

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2009, 11:37:12 PM »
    Only Ten???? I'm way worth much more!!!

I'm sure you are!!  Ok, I'll take up a collection.    ;D

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2009, 04:57:16 AM »
Do you offer classes?  I'd pay for that.  Really.

Outside of the long-term contracts that provide my living, I "give" classes to people I like. My way of giving something back to the world.

Offline mash

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2009, 09:36:49 PM »
Outside of the long-term contracts that provide my living, I "give" classes to people I like. My way of giving something back to the world.

you mean like posting on this forum when you could be writing your book... for instance?

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2009, 09:41:49 PM »
you mean like posting on this forum when you could be writing your book... for instance?

Exactly.

Almost wrote some tonight but got busy mounting a light/laser on my Mossberg 500.

I have my priorities. ;)

Offline monkeyboyf

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2009, 10:00:40 PM »
Thanks so much, Goatdog62.  Holding my breath for more.  Hurry wit the book!

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2009, 04:58:11 AM »
Thanks so much, Goatdog62.  Holding my breath for more.  Hurry wit the book!

I am, but book is fiction. Not Personal Security related, maybe someday.

Prologue of Steele Resolve

http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=5503.0

Offline LvsChant

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2009, 07:26:35 AM »
Great thread... I really appreciate the information. I now feel the need to buy some pepper spray. The whole family is making an outing to the gun range this weekend to do some training... should be big fun. Haven't done any target shooting with my husband in years (I have forgotten everything I once knew, so we'll have to start from scratch). The boys are very excited about it. I like the pepper spray tree training technique... we'll have to do that one, too.

Looking forward to reading the prologue...

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2009, 08:49:33 PM »
I want to add something else.

If driving away from an attack, don't let a chain link fence stand in your way. Do not aim between the poles, center a pole (not a corner one) on your hood and hit it pretty hard. It will lay the fence down and you'll run right over it. If you aim between the poles, the fence will likely flip up and could trap your car and pin you inside.

We tested this extensively.

The average econo box can take out a 3" diameter tree and still move on, a bigger car/suv up to 4" or slightly more. Don't let shrubbery and saplings stop you from fleeing your attacker in a vehicle. It won't help the resale value of your car though.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 01:35:27 AM by Goatdog62 »

Offline Remington

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2009, 06:06:01 PM »
Even more excellent information sir, thank you very much!

Though I doubt I'll ever have the need to drive through a fence, I am sure that I would have done the opposite of what you said! So the information will surely save my hide if I'm ever in the situation.

Offline fred.greek

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2009, 07:18:43 PM »
With advance apologies to such peace officers are may participate in this forum, and to all, I frankly do not expect responses, rather just to prod your thinking:

“Undocumented” thugs are relatively simple, use whatever weapon and self-defense means are allowed in your jurisdiction…

The response becomes a bit fuzzier when the thug holds a badge… And as the overall big picture worsens, we can unfortunately expect the contacts with “bad cops” to increase and worsen.

Perhaps an even greater quandary awaits the “good cops”, as they are increasingly required to enforce “bad laws” and deal daily with the “bad cops”.   

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2009, 07:28:26 PM »
With advance apologies to such peace officers are may participate in this forum, and to all, I frankly do not expect responses, rather just to prod your thinking:

“Undocumented” thugs are relatively simple, use whatever weapon and self-defense means are allowed in your jurisdiction…

The response becomes a bit fuzzier when the thug holds a badge… And as the overall big picture worsens, we can unfortunately expect the contacts with “bad cops” to increase and worsen.

Perhaps an even greater quandary awaits the “good cops”, as they are increasingly required to enforce “bad laws” and deal daily with the “bad cops”.   


This is absolutely, positively, NOT the thread to discuss bad cops.

Angie

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2009, 08:18:34 PM »
I'm a retired Registered Nurse.  When working, nurses and other staff were required to attend safety classes yearly.  Working shift work and lonely parking garages and lots lends itself to a hunting ground for bad guys.  I carry pepper spray.  It attaches to my key chain. 

I do remember being instructed that if a bad guy grabs you, holds a gun on you, and is trying to get you to get in a car with him, let him shot you rather than go with him.  Why, because he will probably take you to a very isolated place and kill you anyway, if he shots you in the parking log, someone will hopefully hear the shot and find you.  You chances of survival go up if shot in a public place.  I've always remembered this, and will never get in a car with someone with a knife or a gun. 

What is your opinion????


Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2009, 08:38:07 PM »
I'm a retired Registered Nurse.  When working, nurses and other staff were required to attend safety classes yearly.  Working shift work and lonely parking garages and lots lends itself to a hunting ground for bad guys.  I carry pepper spray.  It attaches to my key chain. 

I do remember being instructed that if a bad guy grabs you, holds a gun on you, and is trying to get you to get in a car with him, let him shot you rather than go with him.  Why, because he will probably take you to a very isolated place and kill you anyway, if he shots you in the parking log, someone will hopefully hear the shot and find you.  You chances of survival go up if shot in a public place.  I've always remembered this, and will never get in a car with someone with a knife or a gun. 

What is your opinion????


Tha same as yours Angie. I would not cooperate. A bad guy isn't going to take you somewhere that doesn't allow him to do what he pleases. Don't get in the car with him. Fight and scream. Odds are he won't shoot.

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2009, 09:31:38 PM »
That leads me to another point.

Many abductions take place in the victims own car. You can be made to drive, to sit in the passenger seat, the back seat, the floorboard, or the trunk.

If driving, there are a number of options you have. A weapon may be pointed at your head or ribs. He and you may or may not be belted in. You may have an airbag, he may not. KNOW YOUR CAR VERY WELL. Wrecking the car intentionally may be a viable option...I can't make that call for you, though I know I would based on my training and experience. A violent sudden brake from a high speed that you know is coming and his unbelted ass doesn't may send his head into the windshield. The bottom line is this; make every effort not to reach the destination he has decided to take you to. It will fit his needs and not yours.

Place edged weapons within easy reach of all those locales (adjust if you have children). If he gets you in the car somehow, get it when he is distracted. Remember, he will be stressed and nervous also. An opportunity could very well present itself. When you get it, don't threaten him with it he could disarm you. Use it on his neck, eyes, or groin violently and repeatedly.

From the floorboard, at least try to track the time and direction you are moving in. This may be useful later. If you've hidden a weapon under the seat, now would be a good time to retrieve it.

Even if you aren't abducted in your own car, don't despair. Feel around for the tire tool (have many case histories where that was left in there). Feel for the lock mechanism, usually it is intact as the manufacturer meant it to be. If a bad guy disables the trunk mechanism it makes it real hard for him to get back in there to get you out. Take action, panic later.

Trunks;

Trunks are designed to keep people out. Even old trunks. I escaped from a mid 70's Ford LTD, in a training scenario, by manipulating the mechanism. New trunks are even easier.

We'll start from the top;

1. Prep your trunk by putting weapons, tools, old cell that still has 911 capability (many do), flashlight, etc hidden within. Use them to kill your attacker, call for help, escape from your restraints, etc.

2. As you are being loaded in the trunk by the bad guy (BG), attempt to leave evidence on the outside. Blood smears (if you're already bleeding, use it) on the bumper, clothing dropped on the ground, break a tail light, etc

3. When in the trunk and you have gotten out of any ropes, duct tape, etc (different thread maybe someday) if any, start working the lock. Newer cars have a glow in the dark tag that basically says "pull here dummy" on it. Don't pull it until you are 100% ready to make your attempt, but don't wait until you are well out of town and on that long, lonely gravel road either. Even if he has removed the glow in the dark tag, the mechanism will remain. If you've hidden a flashlight, get to that first. Light can also be obtained by turning the brake or tail light sockets a half turn and bringing the attached bulb and socket into the trunk area. This is easier on some cars than others. Insulation may have to be pulled off its plastic rivets to gain access to tail lights and lock mechanisms. Disabling tail lights can get the cops to pull the car over. This may make the BG take off and a pursuit will ensue, but that is better than dying at the end of a gravel road at the hands of the perp. If you can find the tire tool, you may be able to smash the tail light lenses and get your fingers out there to wave at traffic behind you. Maybe they'll be astute enough to call the cops.

4. From where the key is inserted into the lock cylinder to where it attaches to the lock mechanism are rods, fixed or unfixed. Manipulate the rods if they are unfixed and the trunk should pop. If they are fixed, find the plastic linkage that links it to another rod. Disconnect that plastic linkage by pulling it laterally from the other. It will come apart easily. Then move it to pop the trunk.

5. If that doesn't work, then feel along the flanges of the lid itself, along the struts that prop the trunk open, and elsewhere for a cable that is roughly as thick as a 550 cord. Pull it to trigger the lock mechanism.

6. If that doesn't work then get your fingers into the lock mechanism itself (where it latches shut). You may have to move insulation out of the way first. Move things that move. One of them will trigger the lock. Of all the worlds current vehicles, I have only identified 11 different kinds of lock mechanisms on them, most are very similar. Learn yours when not under stress. Go out there and figure it out. Show your kids how to do it to.

7. If left in the trunk after parking and you don't hear him around, consider attacking the back seat. Some fold down but not easy to do from the trunk side. Check for a ski pole center section that you can widen with the tire tool or attack the seat itself with it to tear it up. This will take time but how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

8. Unless parked in the sun in the summer, you probably won't suffocate or heat stroke. Trunks get enough air to keep you breathing. Don't let the panic overwhelm you. Take breather breaks to get your sh*t together. It will suck, there is no doubt about that, but a trunk is not a bank safe.


My two cents. YMMV

Goatdog

Offline Kellib

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2009, 10:36:02 AM »
Thanks for all this info, I just listened to a pod cast warning woman about giving up and going with the attacker. I would continue to fight but it is good to know how to get out of situations if you are forced in them. This trunk information could save lives. I know that I will now be getting to know my car a little better.

Ephemeral Joy

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2009, 12:18:29 PM »
I'm a retired Registered Nurse.  When working, nurses and other staff were required to attend safety classes yearly.  Working shift work and lonely parking garages and lots lends itself to a hunting ground for bad guys.  I carry pepper spray.  It attaches to my key chain. 

I do remember being instructed that if a bad guy grabs you, holds a gun on you, and is trying to get you to get in a car with him, let him shot you rather than go with him.  Why, because he will probably take you to a very isolated place and kill you anyway, if he shots you in the parking log, someone will hopefully hear the shot and find you.  You chances of survival go up if shot in a public place.  I've always remembered this, and will never get in a car with someone with a knife or a gun. 

What is your opinion????



I am a Registered Nurse now and that is not requiredwhere I work! It should be, not only because of the parking deck situation but we deal with people who have a tendency to be highly unstable.  I too carry pepper spray but can not while I am at work for obvious reasons.  They just told us to position ourselves near the door and leave our stethoscopes behind if we thought we were going to be in a bad situation in a patients room but what were we to do if they actually grabbed us? 


Angie

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2009, 03:08:31 PM »
What size is your Hospital, Joy.  I worked at Orlando Regional Medical Center.   Security is required as part of a JCAH Safety requirement.  An accredited medical facility, in order to receive medicare dollars must be JCAH accredited.  Perhaps you should suggest this to your safety officer or hospital administrator.  At Orlando Regional, with 6 facilities, security was important.  We did not have retired old men, we had trained buff young guys who handled security really well.

Your hospital is looking for an employee or even a patient lawsuit.

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2009, 03:27:10 PM »
Thanks for all this info, I just listened to a pod cast warning woman about giving up and going with the attacker. I would continue to fight but it is good to know how to get out of situations if you are forced in them. This trunk information could save lives. I know that I will now be getting to know my car a little better.


You are welcome.

I think I should make the trunk stuff its own thread. It is 45 postings down on this one and it is very important stuff. Then I could start a new one for restraint defeating and some other stuff.

Offline ColdHaven

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2009, 07:31:19 AM »
What size is your Hospital, Joy.  I worked at Orlando Regional Medical Center.   Security is required as part of a JCAH Safety requirement.  An accredited medical facility, in order to receive medicare dollars must be JCAH accredited.  Perhaps you should suggest this to your safety officer or hospital administrator.  At Orlando Regional, with 6 facilities, security was important.  We did not have retired old men, we had trained buff young guys who handled security really well.

Your hospital is looking for an employee or even a patient lawsuit.

I work at the same hospital Joy does. We have hospital police who are there 24-7. I wonder if that is the reason we do not have safety classes. I would be interested in knowing more about this. I agree that it would be good for us to have such classes.

Offline Kellib

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2009, 07:37:01 AM »
I


I think I should make the trunk stuff its own thread. It is 45 postings down on this one and it is very important stuff. Then I could start a new one for restraint defeating and some other stuff.

I think that is a terrific idea Its a good thing your first few posts were interesting or I would have never made it to the trunk information. I will keep checking back for more on restraint and self defense. I would greatly like to take a class targeted for woman but have had no luck finding one in my area.

Offline daveinmichigan

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2009, 03:23:47 PM »
How about a link showing the brand/size of OC you think we should buy?

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2009, 03:57:00 PM »
How about a link showing the brand/size of OC you think we should buy?

Punch II. This is the stuff I issue and carry. It is a small (slightly larger than a lipstick tube) container with the aerosol. It is the 2,000,000 SHU strong stuff. It is flammable, the non-flammable stuff is too weak in my opinion.

http://www.defensivechemicals.com/product_info.php?cPath=7&products_id=12

I do not represent this company, the linked website, or any product containing OC. I just think it is a usefull self-defense tool.

I have used several brands. For personal security, the cone-shaped mist and the small size of this one makes it great. It is a Law Enforcement strength.

Fox is a major brand. They hype about their 5,300,000 SHU stuff. However they only have a 2% solution, which is the viscosity of the product, you want  a minimum of 5% and no more than 10%.

There are many larger sizes and many brands. There are mists, aerosols, foams, streams, grenades, pepper balls, etc. This is the stuff I think you should carry as a potential victim. Other applications might be better served by other versions.

Goatdog 

Offline monkeyboyf

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2009, 05:04:56 PM »
Received an email today about Wasp spray as personal protection against would be muggers or invaders.  A shot to the eyes from 20 feet away or even the face will blind them and give you time to get away.  What do you think, Goatdog? 

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2009, 11:01:52 PM »
Received an email today about Wasp spray as personal protection against would be muggers or invaders.  A shot to the eyes from 20 feet away or even the face will blind them and give you time to get away.  What do you think, Goatdog? 

If you are talking about using an insecticide, sure it might work. But since that would likely be considered deadly force, you'd be as justified to use a gun. Pepper Spray is not considered deadly force. If you want pepper spray that works from 20 feet away, just get the various stream versions (Sabre make s a decent one). You need to have a very good aim with this stuff, that may not be that easy under stress as it doesn't fly true and fast like a bullet would.

Liabilitywise, I would not use insecticide on anyone unless deadly force was my only option and a gun wasn't available.

Offline Beetle

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2009, 12:02:56 PM »
Received an email today about Wasp spray as personal protection against would be muggers or invaders.  A shot to the eyes from 20 feet away or even the face will blind them and give you time to get away.  What do you think, Goatdog? 

    Are they suggesting that you carry a can of wasp spray on your person? I think GD is right if your getting attacked in your garage and all you can grab is the wasp spray....well....lmao.
Stick with O.C. less chance of being sued.
 

Offline monkeyboyf

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2009, 01:01:39 PM »
Thanks, guys.  This was from a church secretary alone on Mondays in the office counting Sunday offerings.  No gun there. Just available on desk.  Your reasoning is much better, and I have firepower in every room of my house, the barn,too.He he :)

Goatdog62

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2009, 01:19:58 PM »
Thanks, guys.  This was from a church secretary alone on Mondays in the office counting Sunday offerings.  No gun there. Just available on desk.  Your reasoning is much better, and I have firepower in every room of my house, the barn,too.He he :)

If you are with large sums of cash I think you should not only be armed, I think you should have someone trustworthy there watching out for you.

I'm glad to hear you are well armed on your homestead.

Newb Survivalist

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Re: Thug Avoidance
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2009, 01:32:48 PM »
Tasers
Hell, more than once after a spraying incident, I visited the mens room to do my business and well...watch where you touch yourself. :o Even soap and water doesn't get it all.


I had a similar incident after making salsa.....very uncomfortable shower experience.