Author Topic: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits  (Read 2917 times)

Offline Mr. Bill

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San Francisco City Attorney Dennis J. Herrera (on behalf of the people of California) has sued four non-California businesses (plus 50 yet-unnamed John Does) for selling large-capacity magazine repair kits to California residents.  The kits are entire large-capacity magazines which have been disassembled into their component parts.

The named defendants are Badger Mountain Supply (WA), Shooters Plus (MS), LAK Supply (WY), and 7.62 Precision (AK).

Text of the complaint (13.7 MB PDF file), courtesy of Courthouse News:
Case No. CGC 17-557010, COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AND CIVIL PENALTIES FOR VIOLATIONS OF BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONS CODE SECTION 17200

Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2017, 09:17:03 PM »
I have a lot of reactions to this story

 8)

 :rofl:

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Offline FreeLancer

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2017, 12:08:18 AM »
The named defendants are Badger Mountain Supply (WA), Shooters Plus (MS), LAK Supply (WY), and 7.62 Precision (AK).

Morons.  What were they thinking?  Sure California regulations are dumb, but they'll still nail you for violating them.
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Offline iam4liberty

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2017, 03:57:31 AM »
I dont see how the state can win in a fair and just trial. Since it is legal for gunsmiths, law enforcement, etc to legally buy than it is legal for the companies to market.  And since "importation" is illegal the companies by law have to warn consumers that the two shipments together could constitute a dissasembled magaxine.  They would be in violation of the law if they didnt warn them.  So it all comes down to this statement:

Defendants know or should know that their customers are unlikely to satisfy the limited 4 exceptions under state and city law that would permit them to purchase or possess large-capacity 5 magazines or repair kits. Defendants know or should know that their customers are instead unlawfully 6 purchasing, importing, and/or possessing these pro~ucts from the Defendants.

But that is not how the law works.  The state has to prove that they knew that specific customers did not meet the specific requirements beyond a reasonable doubt.  It is just like firearm strawman purchases.  If the dealer didnt know that a customer was a straw purchaser than they are not culpuble.  The only way for the state to prove this beyond reasonable doubt is a confession of the seller or a sting operation where the seller implicates themselves.

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2017, 04:47:36 AM »
Normally just the cost of legal proceedings will back such things down,but I agree that it is the BUYERS RESPONSIBILITY to insure
the purchase is legal...much like switchblade knives for sale at gun shows, legal to sell,yes,but few legal owners. 
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Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2017, 08:52:39 PM »
Morons.  What were they thinking?  Sure California regulations are dumb, but they'll still nail you for violating them.

I suppose they were thinking that California law doesn't apply in Washington, Mississippi, Wyoming, and Alaska.

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2017, 10:39:48 PM »
The smart business decision when it comes to California gun regulations is to stay well away from the gray zones.  Especially if you're not willing to pay for legal advice beforehand.
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Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2017, 11:36:49 PM »
I suppose they were thinking that California law doesn't apply in Washington, Mississippi, Wyoming, and Alaska.
When they ship to a California address it is very similar to if they sent a salesman to the person's door and sold to them.  Not well thought out on their part.
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Offline iam4liberty

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2017, 09:33:56 AM »
Ah, the truth comes out.  This attorney has done the same thing in the past.  He knows he cant win in court.  But he doesnt care about winning.  What he is interested in is creating a database of San Francisco rifle owners.  If it goes to court the companies have to cough up their shipping addresses as part of the discovery process.  That is what he is after.  So the companies have to decide to give them up or pay a fee.  To date they have been paying the fees:

https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/pages/exile-machine-settles-with-san-francisco-over-repair-kit-suit-39.html

EXILE MACHINE SETTLES WITH SAN FRANCISCO OVER "REPAIR KIT" SUIT
On March 19, 2014 Exile Machine LLC settled the lawsuit filed against us by the San Francisco City Attorney. The suit alleged that we unlawfully sold large capacity magazines as repair kits. While we are convinced that we have always complied with all applicable laws, including the statutes at issue in this case, Exile Machine was absolutely unwilling to give up our customer data. The only way that we could be certain that our customer information would remain confidential was to settle the case and pay $15,000 to the San Francisco City Attorney.

Rest assured that throughout the entire course of the litigation and settlement, Exile Machine LLC retained and continues to retain full confidentiality and control of our customer data. Customer and order information has NOT been and will not be revealed to or shared with any person or entity as a result of this lawsuit or settlement.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2017, 11:28:22 AM »
Ah, the truth comes out.  This attorney has done the same thing in the past.  He knows he cant win in court.  But he doesnt care about winning.  What he is interested in is creating a database of San Francisco rifle owners.  If it goes to court the companies have to cough up their shipping addresses as part of the discovery process.  That is what he is after.  So the companies have to decide to give them up or pay a fee.  To date they have been paying the fees:

https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/pages/exile-machine-settles-with-san-francisco-over-repair-kit-suit-39.html

EXILE MACHINE SETTLES WITH SAN FRANCISCO OVER "REPAIR KIT" SUIT
On March 19, 2014 Exile Machine LLC settled the lawsuit filed against us by the San Francisco City Attorney. The suit alleged that we unlawfully sold large capacity magazines as repair kits. While we are convinced that we have always complied with all applicable laws, including the statutes at issue in this case, Exile Machine was absolutely unwilling to give up our customer data. The only way that we could be certain that our customer information would remain confidential was to settle the case and pay $15,000 to the San Francisco City Attorney.

Rest assured that throughout the entire course of the litigation and settlement, Exile Machine LLC retained and continues to retain full confidentiality and control of our customer data. Customer and order information has NOT been and will not be revealed to or shared with any person or entity as a result of this lawsuit or settlement.


Good research, interesting
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Offline iam4liberty

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2017, 11:50:16 AM »
Good research, interesting

Can't take credit for the research.  The folks at calguns have been monitoring it from the start several years ago.  It just so happens that a link got posted on a local firearms board to the calguns posts.  Funny how things move through the social media network.

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2017, 12:56:26 PM »
When they ship to a California address it is very similar to if they sent a salesman to the person's door and sold to them.  Not well thought out on their part.

Is that how the law works?  I mean, obviously it's how this city attorney wants the law to work, but I'm curious what the legal precedents are.  Because this would basically allow every state and county and city to have complete control over interstate commerce where the customer happens to be in their jurisdiction.  Every seller would be obligated to research every local law and regulation before they could sell anything to that location.  At what point do we run up against federal laws that prohibit the states from interfering in interstate commerce?

Ah, the truth comes out.  This attorney has done the same thing in the past. ...

Thanks very much for that info.

Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2017, 01:04:01 AM »
Is that how the law works?  I mean, obviously it's how this city attorney wants the law to work, but I'm curious what the legal precedents are.  Because this would basically allow every state and county and city to have complete control over interstate commerce where the customer happens to be in their jurisdiction.  Every seller would be obligated to research every local law and regulation before they could sell anything to that location.  At what point do we run up against federal laws that prohibit the states from interfering in interstate commerce?

I am not sure.  They are able to force companies to charge sales tax right?  Just like CA specific sales tax on mail order stuff.  I remember that from my ill spent youth trying to buy Sea Monkeys and fake vomit out of ads in the back of Boy's Life Magazine.
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Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2017, 10:50:35 AM »
I am not sure.  They are able to force companies to charge sales tax right?  Just like CA specific sales tax on mail order stuff.  I remember that from my ill spent youth trying to buy Sea Monkeys and fake vomit out of ads in the back of Boy's Life Magazine.

This is the "OMG Internet sales tax!!!!!" thing that has been freaking people out for years.  I'm in WA, and if I order something from CA, I do not pay either CA or WA sales tax (unless the seller has a physical presence in WA).  But I am legally required to report my purchases and pay WA "use tax", which is equal to what the WA sales tax would have been.  The states have been trying all sorts of tricks to force out-of-state sellers to collect this use tax for them, but so far there isn't any nationwide scheme to implement this.

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2017, 11:20:35 AM »
This is the "OMG Internet sales tax!!!!!" thing that has been freaking people out for years.  I'm in WA, and if I order something from CA, I do not pay either CA or WA sales tax (unless the seller has a physical presence in WA).  But I am legally required to report my purchases and pay WA "use tax", which is equal to what the WA sales tax would have been.  The states have been trying all sorts of tricks to force out-of-state sellers to collect this use tax for them, but so far there isn't any nationwide scheme to implement this.

Everything you say is correct.  Further, to the letter of the law, items bought used at a yard sale or craigslist should have sale tax collected.  It's nearly impossible to enforce, so the ROI may not currently be worth the effort.

On a personal note, I continue to be both disappointed in CA politicians and CA gun owners.  Politically the far left legislature passes these "Feel good" laws as gestures.  While some of the legislators may be stupid enough to think reloading multiple 10 round magazines some how makes a public safety impact, in practice they do this for political points.  "we did something".

These laws are not intended to be enforced.  It's just a tool in a prosecutors box that can be employed as leverage. 

If suddenly your state highway patrol began citing drivers for driving 1mph over the limit, would you all say "they broke the law and had it coming?"

Use your brains folks.  Do not break the law obviously, but don't throw your fellow gun owners under the bus either.

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2017, 08:20:25 PM »
If you're a responsible gun owner in California, who is unable to buy a particular gray market item locally (because it's illegal), don't put someone else at risk in your effort to obtain whatever it is that you think is morally acceptable for you to possess.

Don't put some out of state mom and pop shop on the hook for shipping you something that a half assed lawyer would tell them is legally problematic. It doesn't matter that you paid them for their service, you're knowingly placing their livelihood at risk.  It doesn't matter that they're morons, because taking advantage of the feeble is wrong.

Don't put your unwitting family at risk by bringing you gray market items across state lines at Christmas.  They don't know any better.

If it's important enough, put just yourself at risk by driving your own ass across state lines, purchase what you need with cash, and then mule it back home all by your lonesome. That's the only responsible way.
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Offline iam4liberty

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2017, 01:16:15 PM »
It was a proactive strike.  Note section in bold.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/feb/13/gun-rights-advocates-in-california-brace-for-long-/

In filing the lawsuit before the ban on possession of the large-capacity magazines takes effect, the city is “being proactive,” said John Cote, a spokesman for the city attorney.

“Studies have shown that when people anticipate new gun laws taking effect, there is an uptick in purchasing,” Mr. Cote said. “We wanted to get out ahead of people buying these items — which are already illegal to purchase in California — and limit the illicit supply making its way into our state.”

The lawsuit alleges that five online retailers are engaging in unfair or fraudulent business practices by telling California and San Francisco consumers that they can lawfully purchase disassembled large-capacity magazines that the sites sell.

The five targeted sellers are Badger Mountain Supply in Washington state, 7.62 Precision in Alaska, Shooters Plus in Mississippi, LAK Supply in Wyoming and Buymilsurp.com in Florida.

Mr. Herrera notes in the lawsuit that large-capacity magazines were used by gunman responsible for several mass shootings — including the massacre carried out by a radicalized Muslim couple in San Bernardino, California, that left 14 people dead and the Orlando nightclub attack in which a gunman radicalized by Islamist propaganda killed 49 people.

“The only purpose of these magazines is to kill as many people as quickly as possible,” Mr. Herrera said. “They have no place in our neighborhoods. That’s why the people of California have spoken loud and clear on this.”

Mr. Cote said his office was unable to provide details on whether the retailers named in the lawsuit actually sold the prohibited items to Californians in violation of the law, saying attorneys “expect to obtain that information as part of the discovery process during litigation.”

A spokesman for 7.62 Precision said the lawsuit appeared to be “nothing more than a political use of the court systems” as the retailer stopped selling the repair kits after California changed its laws.

“Inventory on our website was changed to out of stock, and the item was set as a non-available item,” read a statement from the retailer. “7.62 Precision has always made a strong effort to follow all applicable firearm laws and the item listing had clear disclaimers indicating the purpose for the item and warning customers against using any parts for illegal purposes.”

In a message posted to its website, LAK Supply noted that it would no longer offer magazine parts for sale to any California shipping address.
“We’ve done virtually no business of any type in CA for years at this point, your laws keep becoming more leftist and extreme, and places like the city of SF are more than happy to harass businesses about what kind of parts they sell,” read the statement. “At this point, it’s simply no longer worth the harassment.”

The ban on possession of large-capacity magazines is one of the laws Mr. Michel said his firm plans to challenge on Second Amendment grounds.
Noting that the parts kits can be used for a variety of purposes, Mr. Michel said, San Francisco is simply trying to “have a chilling effect” on gun retailers and buyers.
“The red-taping things to death is absolutely part of their strategy,” he said.

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2017, 05:58:52 PM »
So the ultimate purpose is intimidation of gun owners and retailers to dry up sales even beyond the  letter of the law?  And secondarily to coerce retailers into incriminating themselves?

Doesn't the prosecution have to have some EVIDENCE first before they can charge anyone? I thought "discovery" was to get additional information to add to the original evidence.  But the article makes it sound like they have no evidence such sales have occurred and they want the retailers to prove they are innocent.  Is it not the prosecutors job to prove guilt?

Of course, in California the law may be irrelevant in such matters.  Anyone know how this is SUPPOSE to work?
There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?

Offline Davew223

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Re: San Francisco sues out-of-state sellers of large-cap magazine repair kits
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2017, 05:20:31 PM »
Looks like grounds for a malicious civil prosecution case against San Fran.   

Offline Mr. Bill

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Online Gun Dealers Cut Deal With San Francisco

Quote
..The settlement requires the sellers to notify customers that California is off limits for the magazines, and they must annually certify they are complying with the agreement. ...

They're also required to maintain searchable databases of all purchasers and attempted purchasers from California.  But they don't have to pay a fine.  (Linked article links to a PDF of one of the injunctions.)

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Online Gun Dealers Cut Deal With San Francisco

They're also required to maintain searchable databases of all purchasers and attempted purchasers from California.  But they don't have to pay a fine.  (Linked article links to a PDF of one of the injunctions.)

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Offline iam4liberty

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This is what you call a tactical retreat.  The NRA is filing several lawsuits one of which is a challenge to the standard capacity mag ban.  The San Fran suit could have provided instant standing and grounds for expediting it.  So they settled.  There was a cash settlement involved.  The online accessory retailers (not gun dealers as press release and some news articles claim) had to pony up about 4 grand each to cover the city's lawyers' bar tabs and other assorted expenses.

Now the san fran lawyers can turn their attention to more pressing threats of public safety...like the robot apocalypse:

https://www.wired.com/2017/05/san-francisco-wants-ban-delivery-robots-squash-someones-toes/

San Francisco Tries to Ban Delivery Robots Before They Flatten Someone’s Toes
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 05:32:42 PM by iam4liberty »

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SF is full of idiots.


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