Author Topic: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?  (Read 12991 times)

Offline David in MN

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2017, 07:00:09 AM »
Saw Paul Ryan on CNBC this morning. I'll paraphrase:

"We're going to get tax cuts for the middle class because they live paycheck to paycheck."

He essentially said that line TWICE. If the middle class has no savings...  :facepalm: And I bet he has better numbers than I.

This is the mess.

Offline bigbear

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2017, 08:22:17 AM »
Saw Paul Ryan on CNBC this morning. I'll paraphrase:

"We're going to get tax cuts for the middle class because they live paycheck to paycheck."

He essentially said that line TWICE. If the middle class has no savings...  :facepalm: And I bet he has better numbers than I.

This is the mess.

Today's middle class has a consumer and fast-paced mindset in general.  That's why they live paycheck to paycheck.  Low income families have to live paycheck to paycheck.  Many middle class families choose to (obviously there are some exception for stuff like health, etc.).  But on paper, the income says these families are in the middle class. 

There are many luxuries that the middle class buys because the cash flow is there but the priorities are not.  Because we've chosen to run our kids from school to soccer practice to piano lessons on a daily basis, we "need" some efficiencies to smooth out the edges.  And then some of us have to show we're somebody special. 

Offline bigbear

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2017, 09:20:46 AM »
Because a lot of preppers are broke, ignorant of basic financial planning concepts, and persist in fantasizing about a future where it won't matter anyway.  Just look at any of the threads here on investing over the years, where the predominant sentiment is that the financial system is going to hell, money will soon be worthless, and an ammo can of silver is a wise retirement plan.  However, now that Trump is President and the future looks brighter for the average prepper, this world view may be changing.

I'm with Freelancer.  Fear of some type of financial crises is probably the number one reason why most preppers are here to begin with (it's how I got started, so I'll project that onto ya'll too).  In that sense, most of us are probably tight or concerned about it getting tight financially (aka broke).  But we also bear a sense of personal responsibility for ourselves and the ones we love.  So we prepare in ways we know.  We're trying to figure out how do we make do without money to grease the wheels.  So it's a interesting fantasy.  That's not a bad goal in one sense.  "But even if it doesn't" is the other sense.  Shouldn't we prepare for that as well?  Historically speaking, it's the most likely outcome.  Maintaining a balanced reasoned approach is key in all aspects of life. 

Budgets, investing, wills, taxes, insurance, and related topics are no different than any other skill (or threat).  Some of us haven't spent the time or just aren't interested in understanding finances.  Many of us probably did not come from a family where it was directly talked about much. 

That being said:  Are we each are preparing for different threats because of how likely we see them actually occurring?  Or are we just doing what we're told by prepper websites and forums? 

If it's the first, then our responses will vary.  But unless we have some logic behind our expectations, it's easy to get caught up in the fantasy.  Especially considering that some you have your tin foil hat strapped awfully tight!  ;)  Only when we have a less emotional foundation for our expectations can we make better decisions on how we prepare (specifically on how we invest our time and money). 

If it's the second, we're little better than lemmings and need to engage our brain to the world around us and our personal situation.

Offline RitaRose1945

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2017, 09:56:02 AM »
That being said:  Are we each are preparing for different threats because of how likely we see them actually occurring?  Or are we just doing what we're told by prepper websites and forums? 

Yep.  For me, I'm in an area where we have virtually no natural disasters and rioting is pretty much non-existent.  Crime is definitely a thing, but fairly random, so you prep for it, but financial trouble is a MUCH more likely scenario in my little piece of the world, so I prep for that even more. 

But there's not a lot of discussion about it.  That doesn't mean nothing is happening, but I don't see a lot of threads on the benefits of various drop shipping methods, or which websites are legit for freelance writers and which just pay you in "exposure."

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2017, 11:30:07 AM »
Yep.  For me, I'm in an area where we have virtually no natural disasters and rioting is pretty much non-existent.  Crime is definitely a thing, but fairly random, so you prep for it, but financial trouble is a MUCH more likely scenario in my little piece of the world, so I prep for that even more. 

But there's not a lot of discussion about it.  That doesn't mean nothing is happening, but I don't see a lot of threads on the benefits of various drop shipping methods, or which websites are legit for freelance writers and which just pay you in "exposure."

I've only visited Las Vegas and similar climates a handful of times, but similar to Arizona, the prepper in me is rather paranoid about the loss of utilities in a desert climate. 
What if you had no grid power for a week in the summer?  No running water?

Sure, I've got the lingering risk of a biblical scale earthquake, but I've got fresh water (not necessarily potable) in 3 directions from me, and the temperatures are mild enough I won't die from exposure in a few hours.

Don't get me wrong, the remote risk of a long term grid down event is bad anywhere, but I just think adding extreme temperatures and a lack of natural water sources is an extra burden.

Offline RitaRose1945

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2017, 12:40:39 PM »
I've only visited Las Vegas and similar climates a handful of times, but similar to Arizona, the prepper in me is rather paranoid about the loss of utilities in a desert climate. 
What if you had no grid power for a week in the summer?  No running water?

Sure, I've got the lingering risk of a biblical scale earthquake, but I've got fresh water (not necessarily potable) in 3 directions from me, and the temperatures are mild enough I won't die from exposure in a few hours.

Don't get me wrong, the remote risk of a long term grid down event is bad anywhere, but I just think adding extreme temperatures and a lack of natural water sources is an extra burden.

We generally have at least 6-8 gallons of potable water on hand at all times, plus food.

Life without electricity sucks, but it's survivable if you're relatively healthy, and we have a generator for when it's not.  Jay has lived here for about 40 years, and I worked outside in the heat (and occasional snow) here for several years, so being without AC would REALLY suck, but... we would live.

I have relatives less than 150 miles away if it came down to something involving the whole area, and that obviously wouldn't be the less than two hour drive it usually is.  But given my experience and previous jobs, I know I could even walk there, if the freeway was shut down and I had to, in less than a week.

We just don't get the earthquakes as bad as when I was in SoCal, and we do get monsoons, but they rarely last long and the flashflooding is fairly predictable, so they're not too hard to avoid.

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2017, 09:47:08 AM »
We generally have at least 6-8 gallons of potable water on hand at all times, plus food.

Life without electricity sucks, but it's survivable if you're relatively healthy, and we have a generator for when it's not.  Jay has lived here for about 40 years, and I worked outside in the heat (and occasional snow) here for several years, so being without AC would REALLY suck, but... we would live.

I have relatives less than 150 miles away if it came down to something involving the whole area, and that obviously wouldn't be the less than two hour drive it usually is.  But given my experience and previous jobs, I know I could even walk there, if the freeway was shut down and I had to, in less than a week.

We just don't get the earthquakes as bad as when I was in SoCal, and we do get monsoons, but they rarely last long and the flashflooding is fairly predictable, so they're not too hard to avoid.

I keep about 50 gallons long term potable water, and 150 gallons of "gray" rain water and of course hot water tanks, etc.
I have a family of four, and all that really just covers a few weeks at most with some rationing.  After that I can dig out the back country water filters and carry buckets from the river if things are THAT bad...

Offline bigbear

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2017, 11:14:04 AM »
Do either of you have a will? 

Offline RitaRose1945

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2017, 11:31:37 AM »
Do either of you have a will?

That's the one thing I'm lacking, though my only assets are a paid off car worth about $5,500 and a mutual fund, which has beneficiaries named.


My bank account (other than the mutual fund) is quite small, and I don't own any real estate or property of any value.

But I know I do need one.  I'm just in a state of flux right now as far as where I will be in the next year.  I could have a drastically different life by then.

Offline Black November

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2017, 11:43:10 AM »
It is wise to save, but unwise to let others tell you how to invest.

https://www.dinkytown.net/retirement.html

Offline bigbear

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2017, 01:42:21 PM »
That's the one thing I'm lacking, though my only assets are a paid off car worth about $5,500 and a mutual fund, which has beneficiaries named.


My bank account (other than the mutual fund) is quite small, and I don't own any real estate or property of any value.

But I know I do need one.  I'm just in a state of flux right now as far as where I will be in the next year.  I could have a drastically different life by then.

Understood.  And I really wasn't trying to call you out.  I was just trying to point out the 'prepper' focus on some things (like beans and bullets) but not on others (like finances, POA, wills...).  Obviously, our mileage my vary because these types of things impact families to varying degrees.

Full disclosure:  I've drafted a few wills, but never have had it notarized...  So I'm pretty much write there with you.  Maybe worse sense I have 5 young kids.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2017, 02:07:57 PM »
Understood.  And I really wasn't trying to call you out.  I was just trying to point out the 'prepper' focus on some things (like beans and bullets) but not on others (like finances, POA, wills...).  Obviously, our mileage my vary because these types of things impact families to varying degrees.

Full disclosure:  I've drafted a few wills, but never have had it notarized...  So I'm pretty much write there with you.  Maybe worse sense I have 5 young kids.

notarizing depends on the state, it is not legal to notarize a will in the state of California. You just sign them. You can have witnesses sign that they witnessed you signing. But, no notarizing. So, the notary cant witness. Maybe just part of the California fear of litigation ( a will is a legal document, and they dont want it construed that the notary was saying it was legal ? )

Offline David in MN

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2017, 02:53:16 PM »
It's also out of fashion. We just don't share our personal information. I grew up in a family where estate planning was common dinner conversation. And I'm a trader. So I have no problem blurting out all my opinions and recent trades. But nobody else does. Outside a couple little cliques I have where this is acceptable and some really good online friends I have in a mastermind group of traders Even my family doesn't get it.

It took about a decade of success before people even asked my thoughts. And when the family started asking my opinion I rapidly found that many suffer from buying almost the same fund at 3 different companies.  :-\ That's not portfolio management. And as bad, they had no strategy. I own Amazon and ConEd. One is a growth and one is a dividend. Both strategies are fine as long as you know what they are and why you're doing them. And not having a strategy is very risky.

When I talked to my mom in August I told her that in July I returned 9.3%. She called me "lucky". Maybe Taleb was right about traders. But you'd think my own mom (who actually taught me how to invest) would ask what I did. It's taboo.

I do have a will and power of attorney set up. And an attorney on retainer.

I would recommend people find any organization or club in your area for business owners, self employed, and entrepreneurs. Talking with them for a while will change your views. They're not afraid to talk money and they talk about it differently. I was lucky to be mentored by a restaurateur and a scrap metal recycler.  Learned a lot.

I better stop this rant. This is more than I intended to share anyway. Suffice to say the second you start talking about finance most people brand you a heretic. It's been my experience that the most wealthy people I know don't follow the conventional wisdom. They talk about it.

Offline Carl

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2017, 02:58:59 PM »
  Will? All I will leave behind is a huge debt and a hole in the ground.

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2017, 03:34:46 PM »
Do either of you have a will?

I have a will and life insurance for a bit more than 10x my annual income.

Offline David in MN

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2017, 03:44:19 PM »
Will, insurance, power of attorney, attorney with retainer, and am in the process of building a trust. That said, Trump's tax plan eliminates the inheritance tax so we all might find it  easier to hand down a business or some pass through situation.

I do worry about my daughter inheriting my active portfolios.

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2017, 04:30:34 PM »
I do worry about my daughter inheriting my active portfolios.

That brings up a crap ton of complexities.  Assuming that's not on auto-pilot, liquidation may be the safe course.  Then that leads to tax implications, etc.

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2017, 10:40:55 AM »
...But my Dad slipped into Parkinsons which includes a form of mental impairment.  Before my mom realized it he had sold out their waterfront home for a song ("it's my damn money and I can do with as I want!"), then sold their annuity for some hairbrained investment, and canceled their long-term care insurance they paid into for 20 years. ...

You have my sympathy, NWPilgrim.  My father-in-law also had Parkinson's.  Luckily he turned over his financial affairs to my wife before he became incompetent to handle them.  My own dad is recovering from a traumatic brain injury, so I'm handling most of the money stuff for him and my mom.

We could have a whole separate thread on "preparing for becoming mentally disabled".  It doesn't fit into the prepper mythos, but it's gonna happen to a lot of us.

Regarding the original question ("Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?"), I think privacy is a big reason, especially online.  You can't hardly say two words about your own financial planning without revealing a lot about your income and savings level.  For example, "What's the best way to buy 10 oz of silver?" vs "What's the best way to buy 10 oz of gold?"  I'm not sure what we can do about this, besides posting very general and vague information for each other.

Offline Carl

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2017, 11:08:53 AM »
You have my sympathy, NWPilgrim.  My father-in-law also had Parkinson's.  Luckily he turned over his financial affairs to my wife before he became incompetent to handle them.  My own dad is recovering from a traumatic brain injury, so I'm handling most of the money stuff for him and my mom.

We could have a whole separate thread on "preparing for becoming mentally disabled".  It doesn't fit into the prepper mythos, but it's gonna happen to a lot of us.

Regarding the original question ("Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?"), I think privacy is a big reason, especially online.  You can't hardly say two words about your own financial planning without revealing a lot about your income and savings level.  For example, "What's the best way to buy 10 oz of silver?" vs "What's the best way to buy 10 oz of gold?"  I'm not sure what we can do about this, besides posting very general and vague information for each other.

Not for mental illness,though some might argue the fact, but i also have been preparing for a long trip and planning to hand over my financial stuff just after I leave.

Offline RitaRose1945

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2017, 12:19:39 PM »
We could have a whole separate thread on "preparing for becoming mentally disabled".  It doesn't fit into the prepper mythos, but it's gonna happen to a lot of us.

Not for mental illness,though some might argue the fact, but i also have been preparing for a long trip and planning to hand over my financial stuff just after I leave.


I think a thread for each would be a really good idea.

You have my sympathy, NWPilgrim.  My father-in-law also had Parkinson's.  Luckily he turned over his financial affairs to my wife before he became incompetent to handle them.  My own dad is recovering from a traumatic brain injury, so I'm handling most of the money stuff for him and my mom.

I'm in full agreement.  My dad had Parkinsons (diagnosed in 1988 and passed away in 2003) and it is brutal.  The average guy thinks it's just about the shaking, but that's not even close to the worst part of it.

And I had a TBI myself in 2011, followed by a less serious concussion seven months later.  My personality changed for a while, and I was angry almost constantly.  Thanfully, I'm back to my old self, with the minor addition of occasional panic attacks, but being out of control of your brain and your emotions is VERY frightening.

Offline David in MN

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2017, 12:32:35 PM »
When my grandmother passed she had none of her finances in order. It was a mess. She had accounts with banks, credit unions, co-ops, contracts for the farm, a brokerage, and a barn full of 90% garbage and 10% priceless antiques.

There are so many reasons why you need to have a plan to transition control of your finances. We put together an action plan for us. It's also nice to have a digital pho album of all the assets (guns, jewelry, art) that you would want next of kin to recognize as valuable.

Offline Carl

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2017, 12:40:12 PM »
  Mine is pretty much just a BUGOUT as I know where I'm going,just not when.

Online FreeLancer

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2017, 04:25:42 PM »
Regarding the original question ("Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?"), I think privacy is a big reason, especially online.  You can't hardly say two words about your own financial planning without revealing a lot about your income and savings level.  For example, "What's the best way to buy 10 oz of silver?" vs "What's the best way to buy 10 oz of gold?"  I'm not sure what we can do about this, besides posting very general and vague information for each other.

That's certainly true. 

But it's been true in meatspace for generations, as well.  It's one of the big reasons why financial illiteracy is endemic, because nobody wants to talk about it, for fear of revealing information about themselves they'd rather people not know.

Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2017, 04:39:08 PM »
That's certainly true. 

But it's been true in meatspace for generations, as well.  It's one of the big reasons why financial illiteracy is endemic, because nobody wants to talk about it, for fear of revealing information about themselves they'd rather people not know.

there is also the current idea that those with money did something immoral to get said money.  We have a good friend (young, 30s) - we will call him J - who sold his accounting company for A LOT of money.  His family knew he had a lot of money but not how much.  A few years ago, he was able to buy the family farm from his elderly grandfather, whose own children were trying to get their inheritance early, so to speak, by tricking grandpa into signing documents, etc.  His mom, who was not involved in her siblings shenanigans, knew how much J had paid to his grandfather AND how much J paid to settle with his aunts and uncles who were going to sue him for getting involved.  She was ASHAMED that J had that much money.  She was grateful in a weird way that he was able to do all of that, but mostly she was getting after him for having that much money, like it was a bad and terrible thing.

No wonder people with money do not talk about it.

Online FreeLancer

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2017, 06:22:10 PM »
there is also the current idea that those with money did something immoral to get said money.

I don’t think it’s a modern prejudice. Compounding interest has been considered a particularly heinous form of usury since ancient times. The concept of placing one’s assets at risk for potential exponential returns on investment isn’t easily comprehensible, so most assume it must be some nefarious form of black magic.

Maybe they’re right, but once you understand the power of compounding and accept the reality that that is how the financial world works, those rewards are available to anyone with the willingness to participate. Amazing investment returns are accessible to everyone.

Offline David in MN

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2017, 08:36:42 PM »
There's a modern belief in the fact that the market trends up so it will always trend up. There's even the belief that held long enough the Great Depression was just a blip. This is how I was raised.

I now believe it's a different game. If your retirement date was in the 1930s your life was ruined. But wait. that was before our golden years were tied to the market.

The modern market is one where your brokerage takes a meager 1% for granting you the favor of risking your retirement on its fund. He makes his money whether or not you do. He supplies the product, you supply the risk.

And we live in a time where we are taught that small incremental additions to our funds will make a retirement but small fees are good for us. Adding through a sieve is good and paying out a siphon is good.

The worst is that, at the end of the day, we're stuck at gambling on nonsense. We buy "target 2054" or "blue chip growth" as though we're investors. An investor buys for a reason. A strategy.

I currently hold a couple funds because it would be more costly to get exposure any other way. I use REITs and and other such vehicles to  give me access to things I can't do outright.

I don't have retirement in many managed funds anymore. Some make sense. But if I value a 3% dividend better than a 2% there's no reason to be in a fund if I can pick a few on my own.

Empower yourself. It's harder but you make a lot more.


Online FreeLancer

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2017, 11:49:54 PM »
No argument from me about the pitfalls of actively managed mutual funds. 

No argument that markets move up and down, often violently, when measured in periods of a few years. either.  That's the nature of the market.  But over decades the trend for broad stock indexes is up.

So what's wrong with Average Joe buying and holding a broad stock index fund that will reap 10% returns over a 20-40 year period?  (Besides the unfortunate fact that most people lack the ability to actually buy and hold.)

Offline David in MN

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2017, 05:45:38 AM »
So what's wrong with Average Joe buying and holding a broad stock index fund that will reap 10% returns over a 20-40 year period?  (Besides the unfortunate fact that most people lack the ability to actually buy and hold.)

Nothing. It's just really hard to know what that vehicle is. Past performance is not what matters. Many pension plans are underwater because they assumed 8% doing exactly this.

And I don't trust many of the funds that claim to do it. Many make the dividends disappear. Dividends represent 70% of realized gain on average. Many have load. If gaining 10% annum (I assume) makes you rich losing 1-2% is surely highway robbery.

Last, I worry that people feel diversified in buying a fund. The S&P 500 is generally the most diversified approach and we even call it "buying the market". Well, what about the Hang Seng? Nekkei? FTSE? If we're going to be prudent, surely we want some money out of dollars in case of a currency issue or some kind of natural disaster unique to North America.

So when the "average guy" struts up to someone who knows how investing works and proclaims he bought a diversified fund we giggle. We think we're looking at a guy who tossed his dividends, took on load, and "diversified" in one country. Just cause it worked for a while.

It's not fun or easy to dig through financial statements, to analyze COGS, EBIT, same store sales, margins, operations, energy, etc. Being an analyst for one industry is a full time job. But then again we're talking about the castle keep.

Offline Carl

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2017, 06:16:11 AM »
  When stock market profit is equal to inflation,why do people think they are making profit?


Offline David in MN

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Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2017, 07:51:36 AM »
  When stock market profit is equal to inflation,why do people think they are making profit?

Even worse, you could be claiming a 12.53% increase in the S&P during a year where the dollar lost 11%. Add in inflation and you're negative. I guess it's a good thing we don't aggregate this data.