Author Topic: Visa war on cash  (Read 4656 times)

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7008
  • Karma: 100
Visa war on cash
« on: July 18, 2017, 08:58:19 AM »

 This makes me wonder if I would want to eat at places that don't take cash but how bad could it actually get because it's hard to find really good quality restaurants if you like to eat out.

 It also makes me wonder if I should start using discover card instead because this annoys me.

 But is it legal ? I thought cash is legal tender and you can't refuse to take cash ?

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/cashless-society-alert-visa-will-be-giving-up-to-500000-to-restaurants-that-go-100-cashless

"Visa is trying to “encourage” businesses to go cashless, and one of the ways that they will be doing this is by “awarding up to $500,000 to 50 eligible US-based small business food service owners who commit to joining the 100% cashless quest”.  The food industry is still one of the last bastions where cash is used very heavily, and so it makes sense that Visa would want to target that segment.  Of course the more people that use cards to pay for meals, the more money that Visa will make."




Offline Redman

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 2590
  • Karma: 52
  • Lost in the 50's
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2017, 09:18:47 AM »
More than once I've gone into restaurants and gotten a tab for $50/$75 and laid a $100 bill on the table. Waitperson comes back and says they can't make change. My reply, "I have tried to pay. Thanks for the free meal." They found a way to make change.

Offline archer

  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Survival Veteran
  • *******
  • Posts: 17080
  • Karma: 380
  • #ImissAmerica
    • Journey to Greener Pastures
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2017, 09:28:45 AM »
is it not a fed law that cash is proper for all debt, public and private? so visa is advocating breaking the law?

Offline Cedar

  • ...just aDD water...
  • TSP Supreme Galactic Ant
  • ************
  • Posts: 28429
  • Karma: 1396
  • Dont wait for the storm to pass, dance in the rain
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2017, 10:09:36 AM »
is it not a fed law that cash is proper for all debt, public and private? so visa is advocating breaking the law?

Yes and no. Depends on what state.
https://u.osu.edu/zagorsky.1/2016/08/05/do-businesses-have-to-accept-cash/

Refusing to accept cash is illegal in Massachusetts. A state law on the books since 1978 states that no retailer “shall discriminate against a cash buyer by requiring the use of credit.” Federal law leaves the choice up to states.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bostonglobe.com/business/2016/08/03/paying-cash-some-stores-say-thanks-greenbacks-credit-only/a4EvjwgTpI7r4lD3xVOENO/amp.html

Cedar

Offline archer

  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Survival Veteran
  • *******
  • Posts: 17080
  • Karma: 380
  • #ImissAmerica
    • Journey to Greener Pastures
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2017, 10:31:18 AM »
ah thanks for the check on that.

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7008
  • Karma: 100
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2017, 10:38:38 AM »
Yes and no. Depends on what state.
https://u.osu.edu/zagorsky.1/2016/08/05/do-businesses-have-to-accept-cash/

Refusing to accept cash is illegal in Massachusetts. A state law on the books since 1978 states that no retailer “shall discriminate against a cash buyer by requiring the use of credit.” Federal law leaves the choice up to states.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bostonglobe.com/business/2016/08/03/paying-cash-some-stores-say-thanks-greenbacks-credit-only/a4EvjwgTpI7r4lD3xVOENO/amp.html

Cedar

maybe that's why since I live in Massachusetts. I seem to recall that in school we where taught something about legal tender.


Offline Smurf Hunter

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7171
  • Karma: 333
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2017, 02:08:22 PM »
If you order an in-flight cocktail on a commercial airliner they ONLY accept plastic.  At least that's the case with Delta, AlaskaAir and AmericanAirlines.

osubuckeye4

  • Guest
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2017, 03:14:27 PM »
I'm confused by what Visa is doing.

Are they giving the money.. and in exchange the restaurant is agreeing to not accept cash?

Or,

Are they giving the cash in exchange for the restaurant to install technology which will accept plastic in addition to cash payments?



I don't see any problem with the later... the former opens up a huge can of worms both ethically and legally depending on where it's taking place.

Offline Cedar

  • ...just aDD water...
  • TSP Supreme Galactic Ant
  • ************
  • Posts: 28429
  • Karma: 1396
  • Dont wait for the storm to pass, dance in the rain
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2017, 03:57:05 PM »
Are they giving the cash in exchange for the restaurant to install technology which will accept plastic in addition to cash payments?

Are they giving the cash in exchange for the restaurant to install technology which will accept plastic in addition to cash payments?

Plastic only.

Cedar

Offline Morning Sunshine

  • Geese Smuggling Moonbat
  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 6154
  • Karma: 287
  • There are no mistakes, just Learning Experiences
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2017, 04:21:28 PM »
If you order an in-flight cocktail on a commercial airliner they ONLY accept plastic.  At least that's the case with Delta, AlaskaAir and AmericanAirlines.

that kind of makes sense.  planes are kind of small to be keeping a lockbox with cash/change

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 13105
  • Karma: 714
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2017, 04:33:11 AM »
  And soon,CASH will provide the user with a discount as many of my medical bills were cut in half when I asked the magic question...Is that your CASH price?

Offline iam4liberty

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 3342
  • Karma: 265
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2017, 05:52:07 AM »
  And soon,CASH will provide the user with a discount as many of my medical bills were cut in half when I asked the magic question...Is that your CASH price?

Yep.  Our dentist has gone to a 15% discount for no insurance/cash payment and may increase this to 30%.  And my barber has returned to a pure cash business. Many business owners are geting tired of the growing chunks of their cash flow being taken by the financial institutions for little cotribution to the value chain,

osubuckeye4

  • Guest
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2017, 07:20:46 AM »
Are they giving the cash in exchange for the restaurant to install technology which will accept plastic in addition to cash payments?

Plastic only.

Cedar

I guess my follow-up question is... how is it possible for Visa to enforce this?

Visa is going to plant someone in every store to make sure that no cashiers are accepting physical currency in exchange for their food?



EDIT: My understanding is that businesses can refuse cash so long as no debt has been incurred. For example, if I walk up to a McDonalds cashier and say that I want a Big Mac and try to hand cash... they can refuse me because I'm not in their debt at that time. However, if I'm at a nice sitdown restaurant and I order a steak, finish the steak, get a bill for $60 and hand the waitress $80 cash... the establishment has to accept my cash, because I'm indebted to them the cost of the steak. I don't believe that restaurant can refuse to accept my $80 cash at that point... I could be wrong though. It seems like the law is changing every 3 months, so who knows what it will be tomorrow.

EDIT2: That's how United and the other airlines can get away with "plastic only" in the skies. If you order a drink they make you pay first. They don't let you start a tab and go to settle up after the flight when the drinks are consumed. Since you haven't been given the drink prior to paying, you are not in their debt and they can refuse cash since no debt needs to be paid off.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 07:35:06 AM by osubuckeye4 »

Offline archer

  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Survival Veteran
  • *******
  • Posts: 17080
  • Karma: 380
  • #ImissAmerica
    • Journey to Greener Pastures
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2017, 07:43:32 AM »
interesting, did not know that. bloody lawyers.

Offline Cedar

  • ...just aDD water...
  • TSP Supreme Galactic Ant
  • ************
  • Posts: 28429
  • Karma: 1396
  • Dont wait for the storm to pass, dance in the rain
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2017, 07:52:27 AM »
I pay cash for nearly everything, and thus far I have not had anyone refuse it. But I will keep track of when it starts happening.

Cedar

osubuckeye4

  • Guest
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2017, 08:31:09 AM »
I pay cash for nearly everything, and thus far I have not had anyone refuse it. But I will keep track of when it starts happening.

Cedar

The major one is airline carriers.

I've also been to festivals downtown (Chicago) where a few of the merchants (generally large restaurants that did millions in revenue per year) didn't accept cash. I asked why and they said that it was for safety... owner didn't want a bunch of cash sitting around on hand and felt that using the cashless POS would increase safety for employees. Personally, I think that's BS and it's much more likely that the owner was worried about employees pocketing cash in the crowded environment where no real security system was set up to monitor transactions.


That's actually what prompted me to research into the legality of that approach.

I guess it's legal (here in Illinois at least) so long as you're not handed whatever it is that is putting you in that establishments debt in the first place. If they had handed me a chicken leg and asked for $8... they couldn't refuse my $8 cash. If they did, I could walk away and they couldn't (successfully) pursue me legally (though that doesn't stop them from calling the cops if they want and wasting your time). On the other hand, if they told me it was $8 for a chicken leg and I tried to give them cash and they said credit only... there's not much I can do legally. As a private establishment, they reserve the right to refuse service and since I'm not in their debt I can't use my currency because there is no debt to apply it too.


Illinois also has a weird law on the books that says that landlords who run more than 100 properties (large apartment/condo buildings) can set the method of payment, and refuse other methods... they just have to make it known up front and give the prospective renter the terms before anything is signed.

So essentially you can sign a rental agreement for $1700 a month, and if you try to go to the office and pay in cash they can refuse and force you to pay via check/card/direct deposit, so long as the rental contract you signed stipulated methods of allowable payments within said contract.

---

For the record, I don't like any of this and if I was king I'd re-write the law and say that all merchants had to accept legal U.S. tender for all transactions. There are a lot of laws/rules I don't agree with, that's why I try to research them and find loopholes.  8)

If there are any lawyers on the site and you saw that anything I wrote was wrong, please correct me. I'm not a lawyer (I work for a corporation in regulatory compliance where I do respond to legal subpoenas... but I don't practice law), and I always like to know where my interpretations might not hold up in practical settings.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 08:38:22 AM by osubuckeye4 »

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7008
  • Karma: 100
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2017, 09:25:06 AM »
 I'm guessing some people would try to find ways around this sort of thing or try to do business where cash was allowed just because it seems like a bad thing to encourage.

 If the waitress carried a credit card and then I payed with cash, she could just pocket the cash and put her credit card into the machine or someone could have a credit card on hand for people who wanted to pay with cash. If they got upset with that sort of thing, it would show some of their true intent.
It's like when you go to a grocery store and don't have a discount card, they just have one there for you to use. The restaurant owner could have some credit cards available for people who wanted to use cash.

 But then if the place took cash anyway even though they agreed not to with visa, then visa is going to do what ? Are they going to spy on the restaurant and see if cash exchanges are happening ? File a lawsuit for someone taking cash or claim damages ? You could make the argument that they are causing damage by trying to form a kind of monopoly

 You could somehow carry around a credit card that was broken, overdrawn or expired. When the transaction is rejected then you offer to pay cash or you can offer to send them a check in the mail ..

 What if I started a restaurant and after it became successful I started saying that on the first Monday of every month I only accept silver coins or vegtables from people's gardens as payment. In reality I could just put up a sign that said that and not enforce it but would it be legal ?



« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 09:47:05 AM by surfivor »

Offline DDJ

  • Senior Survivalist
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
  • Karma: 13
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2017, 10:15:27 AM »
Using cash is the exception of the rule today. All Visa would have to do is if you are suspected of taking cash form the 15%(guess) of people who use cash they would suspend your "privilege" and you lock the door and go home.  The transaction providers have the business owners at a disadvantage, because there are now more people who do not use cash.  They are in charge. 

As for not taking Cash goes our Sherriff's office will not take cash.  We all know that the Sherriff would not break the law. Then again they will not take credit either it has to be a certified check or money order.

Offline Smurf Hunter

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7171
  • Karma: 333
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2017, 10:22:49 AM »
I pay cash for nearly everything, and thus far I have not had anyone refuse it. But I will keep track of when it starts happening.

Cedar

I work in the travel industry, and it's nearly impossible to:

1) rent a car
2) buy an airline ticket
3) book a hotel (a real hotel like a Marriot/hilton/sheraton, not a small bed and breakfast,etc.)

without a credit card.  You might be able to settle the bill in cash, but they require a CREDIT (not debit) card on file for damages.
Sometimes they will charge $400 or more when you check-in, and you get that refunded upon check-out.

I'm sure with a great deal of diligence someone could find an exception to this, but then you are at a disadvantage as a consumer, and are not able to competitively shop for the best rates.

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7008
  • Karma: 100
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2017, 10:32:36 AM »
I work in the travel industry, and it's nearly impossible to:

1) rent a car
2) buy an airline ticket
3) book a hotel (a real hotel like a Marriot/hilton/sheraton, not a small bed and breakfast,etc.)

without a credit card.  You might be able to settle the bill in cash, but they require a CREDIT (not debit) card on file for damages.
Sometimes they will charge $400 or more when you check-in, and you get that refunded upon check-out.

I'm sure with a great deal of diligence someone could find an exception to this, but then you are at a disadvantage as a consumer, and are not able to competitively shop for the best rates.

 Those are things often done over the phone. Cash does not work over the internet, through the mail, over the phone and scenarios like that .. or because if a car is damaged they want to charge your credit card etc ..

 However, eating at a restaurant or other shopping experiences are in person face to face with no other strings attached.

 Some people may not care or think about it or trust the system but a cashless society has potential problems.



« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 10:40:17 AM by surfivor »

Offline Smurf Hunter

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7171
  • Karma: 333
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2017, 11:14:55 AM »
Somewhat related.  WA state has a bill to make internet sales subject to WA state sales tax.  However this is not limited to major online retailers, but eBay auctions from private people, forum sales that using PayPal, etc.

I wrote to my state senator, who oddly enough is a republican, but still supported this bill to my dismay:

Quote
Dear XXX,

Thank you for reaching out to me during the 2017 legislative session and expressing your concern with the marketplace parity tax. I'm sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

While this proposal was not included it in the original Senate Operating Budget that I supported back in March, it was included in the final compromise Operating Budget that passed the legislature.

One of the unique issues with this proposal, and a large part of why I believe it was ultimately approved, is that these taxes are already owed by consumers in the form of "use tax".

When someone purchases something online and the retailer fails to collect sales tax, the purchaser is legally required to remit that amount in "use tax" to the Department of Revenue. This is something few people do despite their legal requirement to do so.

As someone who frequently does business online (more so than my pocketbook would like), I understand that the level of support for this is mixed. However, in an era where internet commerce is becoming more common place, it is important we create equity between brick and mortar retailers and their online competitors. While I had reservations about this change in the beginning, I can see a compelling reason that forcing local small businesses to charge 10% more than out of state companies to sell the same product is probably bad for our economy.

I appreciate you reaching out to me on this.

Best wishes,

Joe Fain
Washington State Senator

So if it becomes law that any online transaction to a WA resident requires the SELLER to collect and remit the appropriate sales tax, most small time sellers will just decline to do business with WA residents.  We see this with online gun industry (not even the firearms, but magazines, ammo, and accessories), where they state "Sales to: CA, MA. NY. NJ, IL prohibited at this time".  Many of the small players won't sell ANY firearms related gear to those jurisdictions, even though a sling, case or cleaning kit would be totally legal. The seller doesn't want the hassle and risk.

Further, it's also technically "the law" for a yard sale in WA state to collect "use tax", but I'm guessing that never happens.  However if we got rid of cash...


Offline archer

  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Survival Veteran
  • *******
  • Posts: 17080
  • Karma: 380
  • #ImissAmerica
    • Journey to Greener Pastures
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2017, 11:52:09 AM »
'use' tax', more like 'we found another way to rip off the citizens tax'

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7008
  • Karma: 100
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2017, 01:21:38 PM »
 Here's another scenario .. Your identity is stolen or you have a life threatening illness such that your credit is destroyed because you are heavily in debt. That may mean you can't get a credit card or your credit cards have been stolen or compromised. If you had cash reserves or silver coins, if most all businesses went to credit cards then you would have a lot of difficulty buying anything even if you had some cash or silver or if someone gave some to you out of charity.

 Poor people and those living in poverty would be in the same situation and it would seem giving someone a gift of money would be difficult.

Offline Smurf Hunter

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7171
  • Karma: 333
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2017, 01:39:10 PM »
'use' tax', more like 'we found another way to rip off the citizens tax'

that's what .gov regulators do

Think of music "piracy".  In the 1980s and 1990s what teenager didn't have "mix tapes" made from vinyl records and later compact discs?  No one gave two mouse farts about copyright violations when I duped my friend's Van Halen album in 1989.  But when high speed internet came around and it suddenly was easy for millions of people, and more importantly, there's a paper trail to audit, then we saw the regulations start.

Other examples might be flying drones.  RC aircraft have been around for decades, but they are too popular now, so time to make lots of RULES.

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7008
  • Karma: 100
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2017, 01:46:09 PM »
that's what .gov regulators do

Think of music "piracy".  In the 1980s and 1990s what teenager didn't have "mix tapes" made from vinyl records and later compact discs?  No one gave two mouse farts about copyright violations when I duped my friend's Van Halen album in 1989.  But when high speed internet came around and it suddenly was easy for millions of people, and more importantly, there's a paper trail to audit, then we saw the regulations start.

Other examples might be flying drones.  RC aircraft have been around for decades, but they are too popular now, so time to make lots of RULES.

What about web sites where you can convert utube to mp3 ?

Offline Cedar

  • ...just aDD water...
  • TSP Supreme Galactic Ant
  • ************
  • Posts: 28429
  • Karma: 1396
  • Dont wait for the storm to pass, dance in the rain
Re: Visa war on cash
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2017, 08:56:15 PM »
Sometimes they will charge $400 or more when you check-in, and you get that refunded upon check-out.

I'm sure with a great deal of diligence someone could find an exception to this, but then you are at a disadvantage as a consumer, and are not able to competitively shop for the best rates.

I must have lucked out. I paid cash for my hotel room when I went to court, they held $50 for a deposit, which I got back the next morning. But I did not make a reservation either, just walked in.

I am sure I will eventually be required to have a credit card, but so far I have paid cash for anything I needed. I am considering renting a car next fall for a really long trip, so I will inquire about that.

Cedar