Author Topic: Fake Silver  (Read 3441 times)

Offline jerseyboy

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Fake Silver
« on: July 31, 2017, 08:55:02 PM »
I usually buy silver from JM Bullion.  However, from reading this board, some members have suggested buying from local merchants to build a relationship for when you need to sell back.  On my last trip I picked up some mercury dimes, one sunshine mint bar, and one proof silver eagle. Just tonight I did the magnet test on the eagle and the decoder lens on the sunshine mint bar.

The sunshine mint bar said "valid" so that was good.

The proof American eagle failed the magnet test so I officially have my first bad/fake silver coin.

I am thinking that maybe proofs are more likely to be fake than the uncirculated ones. They could ask more for their efforts.

Also, pretty hard to fake the sunshine mint valid stamp.

What have you all done when you have found a fake item in your collection?

Jerseyboy

Offline fred.greek

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Re: Fake Silver
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 09:33:22 PM »
This morning, I wandered about a local consignment place.  There was a bag of what was labeled Mexican Peso’s, based on the years on the coins they should be silver.  Looked them up online, and (if real) they were worth more than what was being asked.  There were hundreds of coins.

After web research, I went to a coin store I trust to talk about peso’s.  The guys there confirmed the value of the coins if real.  They also briefed me on what the weight of each should be if real, and a quick test of touching them with a magnet.

I went back to the “mall” with my scale and a strong magnet.  The clerk got the coins, and I handed her the magnet.  When she touched it to one coin, they all clumped together.  They were all fake, per what the coin store folks told me, junk sent by China and sold here for pennies to some, high price to others, but it puts junk in circulation here and sets in place extended distrust of “silver” coins.

I told the consignment store folks the coins were fake, replicas, that the tag on the display should have said replica, otherwise it was fraud.  I wonder what will happen to the seller….

Offline ncjeeper

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Re: Fake Silver
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 10:15:28 PM »
We are even seeing ASE in 3rd party fake holders.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Fake Silver
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2017, 08:10:10 AM »
 That is worrisome. I had never heard of the magnet test before on any TSP episodes unless I missed something. I figured a local pawn shop or coin shop would be reliable and that was the only advice I ever heard was buy from reliable places. I had imagined if a local coin shop was selling stuff like that, people would complain or find out about it. I will have to try that test, but now I feel concerned. I see there are other tests mentioned on wikihow as well ..

 I had heard of the "clink" test which is what silver coins sound like clinked together ..

 I just looked at some reviews online of the two places I have bought coins. One reviewer said he could not sell his gold or silver to the shop and the shop replied they only buy real gold and silver so hopefully that is a good sign. The other place had 2 reviews and no indication of such things. I will have to find a magnet and dig out my coins this week.



« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 08:17:31 AM by surfivor »

Offline Carl

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Re: Fake Silver
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2017, 03:44:56 PM »
  I worked in a pawn shop for over three years and no magnet test was ever used as we used acid when in doubt though we were rarely in doubt.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Fake Silver
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2017, 06:25:34 PM »
Magnets for testing silver were my stocking stuffers for prepper friends.  Coated N42 ones from KJ Magnetics are really good.  They even work on silver in plastic sleeves.

https://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D84PC-BLK

  I worked in a pawn shop for over three years and no magnet test was ever used as we used acid when in doubt though we were rarely in doubt.

Wont work for some of the new fakes.  They have thicker silver coatings which will pass acid tests.  And they are weighted/sized very close to actual by mixing metals.  The magnet test easily picks them out though as the slow down in speed of the magnets slide is dramatic.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Fake Silver
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2017, 08:58:18 AM »

 I have a flashlight with a magnet so that it will stick to the fridge. Using that I detected no magnetic coins thus far from one of my stashes which has coins from the two places I have gotten silver besides mail order so that is good ..

 Is there any chance that silver or gold could be made synthetically anytime in the next 35 years ?

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Fake Silver
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2017, 09:46:39 AM »
I have a flashlight with a magnet so that it will stick to the fridge. Using that I detected no magnetic coins thus far from one of my stashes which has coins from the two places I have gotten silver besides mail order so that is good ..

 Is there any chance that silver or gold could be made synthetically anytime in the next 35 years ?

Are  you letting the magnet slide down the face of the coin/bar?  The magnet has to move to induce a current and create a counter magnetic field.  On silver the magnet will slowly slide down.  For most other metals it will slide down much more quickly.  The magnet will not attract to silver directly.

Offline jerseyboy

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Re: Fake Silver
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2017, 02:30:04 PM »
Are  you letting the magnet slide down the face of the coin/bar?  The magnet has to move to induce a current and create a counter magnetic field.  On silver the magnet will slowly slide down.  For most other metals it will slide down much more quickly.  The magnet will not attract to silver directly.

And refrigerator magnets are not strong enough. You need rare earth magnets. $6 on Amazon.

Jerseyboy

Offline surfivor

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Re: Fake Silver
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2017, 03:08:38 PM »
And refrigerator magnets are not strong enough. You need rare earth magnets. $6 on Amazon.

Jerseyboy

 it's a magnet that holds a decent sized flashlight onto the refrigerator. I have a magnet on a bigger flashlight someplace. It latches right onto say a pair of metal scissors very easily


It's this light:
http://www.brightguy.com/NEBO/NEBO+CRYKET+Flashlight+Work+Light

NEBO CRYKET Flashlight/Work Light in one; 90° swiveling head; three output modes with dimmable brightness; magnetic base; powered by four AAA batteries.....$21.95

==============

 Most of my silver is 1 ounce, 1/2 ounce rounds and dimes and quarters. I have a 5 ounce piece and maybe 10 ounce bar someplace. If the magnet can't pickup anything in a 1 ounce round, how can there be other metals in it because the round is very thin ? I guess if there was, those metals would have to be in tiny amounts or not be very magnetic.

 wikihow seems to say even if it passes a magnet test there can be other metals .. It say to put ice on it and it is supposed to melt rapidly. How reliable are these types of tests ?


« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 03:24:13 PM by surfivor »

Offline jerseyboy

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Re: Fake Silver
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2017, 03:24:36 PM »
it's a magnet that holds a decent sized flashlight onto the refrigerator. I have a magnet on a bigger flashlight someplace. It latches right onto say a pair of metal scissors very easily

You can try.  It takes a strong magnet to see the effect.  Basically, the very strong magnetic field from the rare earth magnet induces an opposite magnetic field which attempts to repel the magnet in a direction from whence it came thus retarding it's downward progress on a tilted coin.  Copper is about 40% as diamagnetic as silver so it will show less of the same effect.

https://youtu.be/v1YNrWgrbDM

You want small magnets with respect to the coin/round/bar you are testing so it has some distance to travel.

While coins/rounds/bars which stick to the magnet are also fake, that is not the effect we are referring to when we talk about the slide test in the video above.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamagnetism

Jerseyboy

Offline surfivor

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Re: Fake Silver
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2017, 09:45:20 AM »

I watched some of the videos and looked at other web sites such as this:
https://en.numista.com/forum/topic38802.html

 I am not convinced that detecting all sorts of fakes is that easy. I am curious how do most coins shops or experts do it and how common are various types of fakes, where are they often sold etc 
? ? ?


Offline jerseyboy

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Re: Fake Silver
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2017, 08:55:13 AM »
The magnet test is one of those square  vs rectangle things.  If the magnet fails to slow down as you slide it down it is DEFINITELY a fake. If it does slow down it MIGHT be real silver.

So the magnet test can identify SOME fakes, but those fakes it identifies are DEFINITELY fake.

Next would be weight(mass), size, and density tests.  Each one giving you more of a certainty of it being real.  Acid can be used but it leaves a mark which is not good for proof coins (or any coin for that matter).

As to copper, the video I linked to shows the difference between copper and silver.

This is one reason why I like Sunshine Mint with the VALID mark on the back. Nice and simple until someone figures out how to fake that.

Jerseyboy

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Fake Silver
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2017, 09:24:36 AM »
The magnet test is one of those square  vs rectangle things.  If the magnet fails to slow down as you slide it down it is DEFINITELY a fake. If it does slow down it MIGHT be real silver.

So the magnet test can identify SOME fakes, but those fakes it identifies are DEFINITELY fake.

Next would be weight(mass), size, and density tests.  Each one giving you more of a certainty of it being real.  Acid can be used but it leaves a mark which is not good for proof coins (or any coin for that matte.

Exactly.  No fake coin can pass the combination of scale, caliper, magnet, and ring (sound) test.  These are easy, quick tests that anyone can perform.  Even the ultra complicted pressed silver plated molybdenum/lead/copper fake cant make it through the guantlet.  It will have the same caliper measurements and scale measurement but will fail the magnet and ring tests.

Not only will the acid test leave a stain, but with the new plating techniques you have to file down into it for it  to work.  In the past and abrasion stone would be used to scrape an imperceptible amount from the coin.  A drop acid would be applied to to this line rather than the coin.  But the plating is simply to thick for this to work any longer.


Offline Carl

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Re: Fake Silver
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2017, 09:28:00 AM »
  But plated coins and even bars have easily identified lack of sharpness in details that goes well beyond typical die wear.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Fake Silver
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2017, 09:48:20 AM »
  But plated coins and even bars have easily identified lack of sharpness in details that goes well beyond typical die wear.

True.  But the chinese copiers are getting very good. They are using sandwhiched alloys and high quality presses now.  It is becoming harder and harder to tell visually especially with the moybdenum copies.  And people new to silver dont have reference copies to compare.



Best thing for new people is to buy directly from companies like apmex who offer their own items rather than fromthe secondary market where the fakes circulate.