Author Topic: post vegas shooting  (Read 3031 times)

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #60 on: October 09, 2017, 08:39:41 PM »
I still don't see any possible solution in that whole post.  Just "quit focusing on things" and maybe the beginnings of an idea with "focus on the behavior with more education and laws about the behavior."

So again, what do we do?  Because I still haven't heard anything proactive yet, just "not laws about guns" or some form of that.

Again, we need to listen to the security experts and concentrate on opportunity and motive, not means.  First we need to ascertain if this was truly a loan effort or if there were others involved.  If others we need to apprehend them.  Second we need to understand how hotel security failed to note him bringing in the equipment he did.  One thing the hotels have immediately implemented is a mandatory daily room check. It is this type of thinking which will pay the most dividends.  There are lliterally hundreds of other things like this which are being investigated. 

On motive we dont have enough info yet for recos.  But it matters, especially understanding how he radicalized into a rampager:http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/07/us/las-vegas-shooting-motive/index.html

On response, we talked about several things already.  Medical training, mental awareness, and for goodness sake not wearing high healed shoes to events like this.  There is one picture with six different high healed shoes left behind.  It sounds silly but people need to know how bad that is in such a situation.  This is not a joke.


Offline David in MN

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #61 on: October 09, 2017, 08:57:26 PM »
I'm not going to Monday morning quarterback the guy's mass killing tactics.  It was the police that were saying they were literally tripping over all of the guns and 100 round magazines, not leftist gun grabbers.

Which is what makes it a bad tactic. The weapons were a hindrance, not an advantage. According to the police. Your words.
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Offline RitaRose1945

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #62 on: October 09, 2017, 09:38:27 PM »
On response, we talked about several things already.  Medical training, mental awareness, and for goodness sake not wearing high healed shoes to events like this.  There is one picture with six different high healed shoes left behind.  It sounds silly but people need to know how bad that is in such a situation.  This is not a joke.

Well there you go.  Let's ban high heels then.

And cowboy boots, because one of the cops was wearing them and had to kick them off so he could run.

Mandatory tennis shoes it is.

But all of these are how to escape, which is great for prepping, but even better would be if we didn't have to run from quite so many active shooters.

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #63 on: October 10, 2017, 03:57:34 AM »
I still don't see any possible solution in that whole post.  Just "quit focusing on things" and maybe the beginnings of an idea with "focus on the behavior with more education and laws about the behavior."

So again, what do we do?  Because I still haven't heard anything proactive yet, just "not laws about guns" or some form of that.

What do we do:

1) QUIT WASTING TIME WORRYING ABOUT GUNS.

2)  Accept that bad people do bad things and we can't prevent every bad thing from happening.  What possible law would have prevented this guy from killing a lot of people?  He had the makings of a car bomb, which can be made from household items in several ways.  He was a pilot who could have crashed a plane into a dense crowd.  Our best bet is to lock people up who demonstrate unwarranted violence on others.  But a person with a clean record is nearly impossible to prevent.

3)  Spend time figuring out IF there was anything at all in his past behavior that could have been an indicator.  Did the system fail in any way, do we need to be better and reacting to something he did before, people he associated with? Maybe and maybe not.  If not, then he is one of the near impossible criminals to stop from doing his first crime.

You seem obsessed that "we have to DO something" in this event.  On average, 88 people died that day in car accidents.  What have you done about that?  About 1,000 people died that day from preventable medical mistakes.  What have you done about that?  Not everything that happens in life requires that we DO something, especially if it means applying restrictions to law abiding citizens.  Bad things happen.  We should prevent what we can without undo restrictions on the law abiding, but know that sometimes bad people will do bad things and if they die in the process there is not much left for us to do about it.

Passing gun laws is a cop out, feel good action that has zero impact on preventing murders. Europe has far stricter gun laws yet has also had far worse mass killings.  Even with full automatic AK47!  How can that be, those are illegal over there?
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Offline RitaRose1945

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #64 on: October 10, 2017, 05:10:47 AM »
What do we do:

1) QUIT WASTING TIME WORRYING ABOUT GUNS.

2)  Accept that bad people do bad things and we can't prevent every bad thing from happening.  What possible law would have prevented this guy from killing a lot of people?  He had the makings of a car bomb, which can be made from household items in several ways.  He was a pilot who could have crashed a plane into a dense crowd.  Our best bet is to lock people up who demonstrate unwarranted violence on others.  But a person with a clean record is nearly impossible to prevent.

3)  Spend time figuring out IF there was anything at all in his past behavior that could have been an indicator.  Did the system fail in any way, do we need to be better and reacting to something he did before, people he associated with? Maybe and maybe not.  If not, then he is one of the near impossible criminals to stop from doing his first crime.

You seem obsessed that "we have to DO something" in this event.  On average, 88 people died that day in car accidents.  What have you done about that?  About 1,000 people died that day from preventable medical mistakes.  What have you done about that?  Not everything that happens in life requires that we DO something, especially if it means applying restrictions to law abiding citizens.  Bad things happen.  We should prevent what we can without undo restrictions on the law abiding, but know that sometimes bad people will do bad things and if they die in the process there is not much left for us to do about it.

Passing gun laws is a cop out, feel good action that has zero impact on preventing murders. Europe has far stricter gun laws yet has also had far worse mass killings.  Even with full automatic AK47!  How can that be, those are illegal over there?

You seem obsessed with "there's nothing we can do about it" and yes, I refuse to accept that.

Your three points in a nutshell:
1. Don't talk about guns.
2. No really, don't talk about guns.
3. Figure out why people kill other people, which is different for everyone, but don't talk about how they do it.

STILL the only solution I'm hearing is that we need to know why so we can prevent all of the "whys," like they all have the same reason or something.  They don't.  And I even admit that's one avenue to approach the problem.  But there are so many reasons why, it's impossible to cover even a tiny fraction of them.  There are only a few "hows," but they're completely untouchable because my right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" is less important than "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" taken to an extreme.

Maybe when it hits a little closer to home for you.  Maybe when you have to explain to your children why their friends are dead or paralyzed.

This is getting nowhere and I'm bowing out.

Offline Carl

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #65 on: October 10, 2017, 05:15:27 AM »
  I hear that it was already a GUN FREE ZONE and that alone should have made it safe for everyone... :sarcasm:


I hear that the Mandalay plans to now make daily room checks to help prevent problems as their security was pretty tight already as the security guard of their's that was shot was actually shot 6 Minutes BEFORE the mass shooting as he investigated the sound of a drill being used in that room.


Anybody else think that ,as he had calculated bullet drop for his shooting that distance from above , that he likely had some specific targets in mind?

And I agree that GUNs had little to do with it as he also fired on nearby fuel storage tanks and had explosives available ,you can't really legislate inanimate objects into only legal uses...from that height ,he could have tossed bowling balls and killed people also.
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Offline David in MN

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #66 on: October 10, 2017, 05:31:06 AM »
The terrifying thought is that we kneejerk and ban some gun/components and the next criminally insane shooter looks harder at his options.

The innocent were lucky this shooter incorrectly selected an AR. One can only imagine if he'd have gone the route of an unsighted belt fed gun. With the hysteria about scopes we forget how worse it would have been had he developed a "beat zone" and adjusted.

Ironically we will make the next event worse through our current discourse.
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Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #67 on: October 10, 2017, 05:35:13 AM »
You seem obsessed with "there's nothing we can do about it" and yes, I refuse to accept that.

Your three points in a nutshell:
1. Don't talk about guns.
2. No really, don't talk about guns.
3. Figure out why people kill other people, which is different for everyone, but don't talk about how they do it.

STILL the only solution I'm hearing is that we need to know why so we can prevent all of the "whys," like they all have the same reason or something.  They don't.  And I even admit that's one avenue to approach the problem.  But there are so many reasons why, it's impossible to cover even a tiny fraction of them.  There are only a few "hows," but they're completely untouchable because my right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" is less important than "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" taken to an extreme.

Maybe when it hits a little closer to home for you.  Maybe when you have to explain to your children why their friends are dead or paralyzed.

This is getting nowhere and I'm bowing out.

I have not heard anything from you on an effective response to "doing something".  OK, so you get your dream and we have European gun restrictions.  They still have mass murders.  But now every law abiding citizen is prevented from owning an "equalizer", that is a weapon for defense that makes them more equal to their attacker regardless of their physical ability.  You know, like a 110 lb woman can defend herself from a 350 lb brute with a gun, but not so well without one. All your dream accomplished was to disarm law abiding people and did nothing to prevent bad people from murdering.  That is not an effective response.

Please explain how your gun laws will prevent mass murder.  You are very emotional about this and from your comment it sounds like someone used a gun to hurt someone you care very much about.  I'm sorry for your loss and hurt.  But that is no reason to take your anguish out on law abiding people's liberty, especially when it will not make you or your loved ones any safer.  It is fine if you want to live gun free, but please don't expect law abiding gun owners to forsake a means of sport and defense just to make others feel good with a false sense of "safer."  No matter how much you want it to be so, gun laws do not prevent murder.

Most "gun violence" is in suicide, not murder.  I have a friend whose sister-in-law tried to commit suicide. She failed and so they took away rope/whatever so she couldn't hang herself. She tried cutting her wrists so they took away anything sharp (this is all of course after lengthy institutional commitments).  Finally one day she walked up a tall parking garage and threw herself onto the sidewalk. She died very tragically with everyone in her life trying desperately to save her minute by minute day after day.  Taking guns away will not stop suicide and will not stop murder. Tragedy happens and yes, sometimes there is nothing more to be done.  And hammering on other peoples' rights just to feel good is not rational or just.
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Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #68 on: October 10, 2017, 05:49:16 AM »
  I hear that it was already a GUN FREE ZONE and that alone should have made it safe for everyone... :sarcasm:


I hear that the Mandalay plans to now make daily room checks to help prevent problems as their security was pretty tight already as the security guard of their's that was shot was actually shot 6 Minutes BEFORE the mass shooting as he investigated the sound of a drill being used in that room.


Anybody else think that ,as he had calculated bullet drop for his shooting that distance from above , that he likely had some specific targets in mind?

And I agree that GUNs had little to do with it as he also fired on nearby fuel storage tanks and had explosives available ,you can't really legislate inanimate objects into only legal uses...from that height ,he could have tossed bowling balls and killed people also.

This is an interesting finding.  They originally speculated that the guard interrupted his shooting and that is why he stopped after only ten minutes.  But with the guard short BEFORE the crowd was shot at, you wonder why did he stop after only ten minutes and lots of ammo remaining.  Waiting for over an hour for the police to arrive at his door.   I wonder if it was that his guns jammed on those 100-rd mags?  From another forum I am hearing that Daniel Defense severely over-gassed their ports; so the ejection would be more violent.  Add that to the SureFire 100-mags being problematic already and it could well be that his guns jammed.  He may have been involved enough to buy and shoot guns, but unless he practiced frequently under similar conditions he may not have known how to clear jams.  I have seen no mention of brand/type of ammo.  A primer popping loose can totally screw up an AR15 big time and take quite a while to fix (like the primer getting scrunched between the bolt carrier and the top of the receiver wall).  Yet he had over 20 guns available to him...

The whole episode is extremely odd and horribly tragic.  They say he  planned to escape, but really?  Stashing 20-30 guns in a hotel suite on the 32nd floor and hanging around for an hour after stopping shooting?  How is that a plan to escape?  I hope they keep digging into this guy's activities and background (travel, meetings, computers, phones, everything).  He may have just been a sociopath that decided he was done with life and was going to put a dent into society before parting.  But sociopaths tend to like themselves too much for that.  They would rather harm others and slip away.  He seems to have planned this for up to a year at least.  He thought through a lot of things but failed in a lot of others.  And if ANYONE else was involved they need to be dug out and fully prosecuted.

There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #69 on: October 10, 2017, 06:11:54 AM »
Regarding gun laws and violence, this is from one of the queens of gun bans:

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/354440-feinstein-no-law-would-have-stopped-las-vegas-gunman

Feinstein: No law would have stopped Las Vegas gunman
Quote
Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) said in an interview broadcast Sunday that no law could have stopped the suspected shooter, Stephen Paddock, who was behind last week's mass shooting in Las Vegas.

Feinstein spoke on CBS News’s “Face the Nation” about gun legislation in the wake of the attack launched from the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay hotel targeting a country music concert.

“Could there have been any law passed that would've stopped him?” Host John Dickerson asked the senator.

“No, he passed background checks registering for handguns and other weapons on multiple occasions,” Feinstein replied.
There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #70 on: October 10, 2017, 07:20:30 AM »


What's curious to me is the reports that the shooter had calculated for bullet drop, yet also used bump stocks?

How can those me combined into a single tactic?  Was he spraying or making aimed shots?

Rita,

If nothing else this thread should illustrate to you why compromise us nearly.impossible.  so why we diasgree, you no longer have to wonder why gun law won't change much.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2017, 07:02:29 PM »
I already mentioned (and Carl reiterated) one of the big lessons the security experts took from this, a mandatory daily room check.  The shooter was in the room for days which allowed him to slowly bring in the equipment without arousing suspicion because of the 'do not disturb' policy of the hotel.  So, by implementing a daily check by hotel staff (e.g. cleaning staff) it is hopped that similar plans can be thwarted.  Another item which is in the works is updates to the digital security systems to use audio from security cameras to pinpoint gun shots thus speeding police reaction.  There is also talk about bomb sniffers in the parking areas.

This said, I do want to reiterate the point on shoes as it is important.  If you read the stories of the survivors they almost all mention it.  Some of the survivors report timing the pause between groups of shots.  That way they could estimate how far they could dash before the next round of shots began and thus plan for cover or crouching down to limit their exposure.  They also talk about how the area was covered in debris and how some men would carry their girlfriends because they couldn't run.  Here is one example story:

http://people.com/crime/body-cam-footage-las-vegas-shooting/

Another detailed the moments the festival-goers struggled to get to safety.

“I will never forget the sound of that gunfire,” Nashville, Tennessee, publicist Karen Gale, 44, said. “There were lost shoes all over the ground, women being carried by boyfriends.”


I don't like posting images of the dead victims, so instead here are some zoomed in shots of one group trying to escape.  Note the red circles I added.




It should be added that it just wasn't high healed shoes which were lost.  A lot were flip flops and cloth sandals worn by both men and women.

So, please consider this to be a legitimate issue.  Some of us spend a lot of time on our bags, packs, and EDC preps.  But in this case, it was better to drop those preps for unencumbered movement, with shoes playing an important role in getting to safety.

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2017, 07:52:09 PM »
What's curious to me is the reports that the shooter had calculated for bullet drop, yet also used bump stocks?

How can those me combined into a single tactic?  Was he spraying or making aimed shots?

Total rank amateur who had read up on too much stuff but had no real-world experience?  It's only a guess, but we've all run into That Guy – albeit not usually in such an extreme form.

I swear, there are times it seems like "Baofeng" is Cantonese for "hot mess."

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2017, 08:03:59 PM »
Total rank amateur who had read up on too much stuff but had no real-world experience?  It's only a guess, but we've all run into That Guy – albeit not usually in such an extreme form.

Allegedly aimed shots were for fuel tanks at airport and, if he had had the chance to ready it, to set off the car bomb.  Police have said the calculations were accurate.

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2017, 08:49:03 PM »
Yeah, there is that I4L.  So maybe he had a multi-layered plan, one that was interrupted by police before he could pull off the later steps in it.

So many weird, weird layers to this whole thing.

I swear, there are times it seems like "Baofeng" is Cantonese for "hot mess."

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2017, 09:39:54 PM »
Yeah, there is that I4L.  So maybe he had a multi-layered plan, one that was interrupted by police before he could pull off the later steps in it.

So many weird, weird layers to this whole thing.

He also tried to buy tracers prior to event but he couldnt find them in stock.  So they believe he was planning to walk the bump stock ones in with the tracers.  Another of the mysteries is where he practiced.  As far as has been released they havent found a relationship with a gun range. His family said he would fly to Alaska with guns in past (when he was still piloting).  So they are looking that maybe he had property there for planning things.  But now they are trying to figure out if he meant to do the shooting that night or later and the security guard finding him prompted him to accelerate plan.  That may be why car bomb wasnt set up yet.  It is very murky.

Found another "shoe" story.  This couple flew all the way to Illinois barefoot.  ??? Talk about bugging out:

http://www.kmaland.com/news/clarinda-natives-survive-las-vegas-shooting/article_2fe21478-a9fb-11e7-84ca-a324bcf227f9.html

Brian and Kate Hopper were separated from his brother Tim, and his wife Hayley. Pat says Tim knew it was gunfire immediately, and shielded his wife after both dropped to the ground.

"Hayley dropped to the ground--his wife," said Pat. "Timmy got on top of her. And, she kept saying, 'we need to go. We're going to be trampled.' And, he said, 'no, stay down.' Then, when the gunfire stopped, they got up and they ran, and they also ran away from the entrance--Hayley in the lead. Hayley said, 'Timmy never left my back. He stayed to shield me from the back.' And, they ran--only, instead of going north the way Brian and Kate apparently did, they went west."

Pat says Tim and Hayley then climbed a 10-foot cinder block wall in an attempt to escape other spectators fleeing for their lives. After losing her flip flops while running, Hayley began wearing Tim's larger sandals--only to lose those, as well. Both barefoot, the couple ran towards emergency vehicles in a nearby field.

"They came to this field," said Pat, "and Timmy said, 'we kept running across this field, and we saw this fire truck, and we thought we would be okay to go toward the rescue people.' So, he said, 'we went towards the fire truck, and as we were coming closer to it, there was also an ambulance there.' This paramedic said, 'get out of here now--shooter still active.' So, he said, 'we turned the corner--and there were bodies everywhere.'"

Without shoes and luggage, Tim and Hayley went immediately to McCarran International Airport, and flew home to Illinois. Pat learned that both her sons and daughters in law were safe and uninjured in text messages early Monday morning. As her children continue to recover from their ordeal, their mother sends this message:

"We need to be in prayer and concern for those who were lost," she said, "those who are still injured, physically, and those who are bringing home all those awful mental images.

"You know, everyone went out to have such a wonderful good time. And, to have to have lived through this--not knowing whether you were going to live or die, and just to run, and not knowing if you are running in the right direction or not. It's so important that we keep all of these people--all of these people--in our thoughts and prayers."

Pat adds her sons stress that people should continue living their lives, and, quote, "not let one evil person change that."

Offline Carl

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #76 on: October 11, 2017, 04:51:33 AM »
  It's the shoes,he hates shoes...in my best Steve Martin voice....
Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #77 on: October 11, 2017, 05:14:53 AM »
  It's the shoes,he hates shoes...in my best Steve Martin voice....

Oh, that is really bad, Carl!  However, that is one of my favorite lines from his movies.  :)

I agree with Liberty though about the importance of good footwear.  Your feet are you foundation, and if you don't take care of them then you can be in a lot of pain and/or lose a lot of mobility when really needed.  And good shoes are relatively cheap considering the miles of service they provide.  Years ago I stopped buying "office" shoes for work. I have one pair of nice leather shoes for the rare times I wear a suit, but for everything else I wear sturdy walking or trail running shoes, or boots. If you get into an emergency and can't walk well, then your options become very limited.
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Offline Carl

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #78 on: October 11, 2017, 05:25:10 AM »
  As a type II diabetic ,I must protect the feet I can't feel. I wear shoes all of the time...even while sleeping in bed,but not while bathing .
It doesn't take much ,like the stubbed toes from a night excursion to the back door for the dogs needs....I lost two toes from that one and so now ,I always wear good shoes.(Never High Heels)
Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #79 on: October 11, 2017, 07:43:11 AM »
I do think gun owners need to consider the implications of modern media and social connections.

We are the dominant voice in firearms policy for a number of reasons.  We know a lot about guns, it makes us good at thinking about the implications of policy.  One of the biggest advantages is that we are invested.  Gun laws impact us every day unlike those who don't own guns.  The further you are into firearms, and especially carry, the more it impacts you and the more passionate you are.  There are also a LOT of us.  This is to our advantage.

The anti-gun community nucleus tends to be even more passionate.  It is heavily populated by survivors and family of victims of violence perpetrated by armed people.  Their extremely negative experience makes them die hard.  While their are plenty of pro-gun victims of violence involving firearms, you will find many who are surprisingly comfortable with some forms of firearms regulation. Thankfully for gun enthusiasts, the number of passionate anti-gun victims are relatively few. 

However, media (regular and social) may be changing the calculus a bit.  In 1995, a shooting produced a 3 minute spot on the evening news with some video and pics.  Now people get breaking updates and are bombarded by immersive video and audio from the event.  The blood, screaming, fear, helplessness of the event is transported to the viewer.  A person who has never personally touched a gun or heard a real gunshot can get some of the experience that made those anti-gunners so dyed in the wool.

At some point, appeals to reason or worse yet claims that nothing can be done will simply stop being listened to.

I am not saying gun control has to be implemented, but we likely need to put some hard, uncomfortable thought into what can be done to help with an issue that is turning into a threat to our rights.  You cannot get rid of drunken driving, its impossible.  But we did recognize that it needs to be mitigated to a degree and drunken driving has never been less common in the automobile era than it is now.

There were suggestions above about medical training and pushing that.  I totally agree, that needs to happen, period.  If for no other reason than we need to enforce within our own movement that the purpose is preparedness, not firearms cosplay.  You don't get to claim, "I'm a sheepdog!" because you carry a gun and then when you come across a traumatic amputation at a road accident shrug and say, "Let the professionals handle it."  Or at the least, you have to say in the AAR to the incident, "Maybe I should be carrying a TQ."

Also, I thought about the donating blood stories in the news after the shooting.  I think red blooded patriots should shed blood for their country.  How about donating blood regularly rather than simply after an event?  We will usually not be anywhere near the crisis, but our blood might help.  It also carries moral high ground.  That blood might save the life of a shooting victim in Chicago.  We frequently pillory the left for harping on mass shootings and forgetting the grind of gangland shootings.  Regular blood donations helps those events as well as mass shootings.  Call it "Blood of Patriots", "Tree of Liberty" or some such.

It would be a start at least.
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Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #80 on: October 11, 2017, 10:34:28 AM »

Also, I thought about the donating blood stories in the news after the shooting.  I think red blooded patriots should shed blood for their country.  How about donating blood regularly rather than simply after an event?  We will usually not be anywhere near the crisis, but our blood might help.  It also carries moral high ground.  That blood might save the life of a shooting victim in Chicago.  We frequently pillory the left for harping on mass shootings and forgetting the grind of gangland shootings.  Regular blood donations helps those events as well as mass shootings.  Call it "Blood of Patriots", "Tree of Liberty" or some such.

It would be a start at least.

I donate regularly when the blood bank visits my workplace.  I'm O neg (univ donor), so I figure my type is most useful.

What's weird and cool, is how my most liberal friends are surprised I do this.  "We thought you were a cold-hearted free market conservative!?"
I remind them that any of us might need blood, and I can't morally expect to use theirs if I don't also donate mine.

Not a terrible ice breaker for reaching across "the aisle" in a sense.

Offline David in MN

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #81 on: October 11, 2017, 05:37:16 PM »
I used to donate blood until I had a bad experience. I got lightheaded, sick to my stomach, and very weak. Took 2 weeks to fully recover.

Interesting theory, though. I had to stop and think. Planned Parenthood gets to play both sides of the political coin. The Southern Poverty Law Center targets some real extremists and some basic conservatives. I get that the two pronged approach has merit. Be mainstream and fringe. I guess conservatives could learn from this.

But I still cringe. We do donate to several causes. Before the baby I tutored poor kids to help get them a leg up on math. I donate some of my woodwork every year to keep art and shop classes going and to support artistic communities. I wish I could give more but my family comes first. I'm a little disheartened that I have to prove myself more just because I like a little trigger time with the Mrs. When we go downtown to take in a play or an opera, we're "supporting the arts". When we go to our gun club and raise money for conservation of the local wetlands we're just "shooting shotguns".

I'm sick of having to prove my worth to pursue my happiness.
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Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #82 on: October 11, 2017, 06:34:52 PM »
I'm sick of having to prove my worth to pursue my happiness.

I suppose entropy is constant, even in human events. 

Even long, stable stretches in history probably only seem that way in the rearview mirror, getting there is probably a bit more frenetic, especially before events occur that juxtapose it. 
"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing, after they've tried everything else"
-Winston Churchill

"You think health care is expensive now? Wait until its free!"
-P.J. O'Rourke

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-Seneca

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #83 on: October 12, 2017, 06:07:48 AM »
I agree we are in an uphill battle to preserve our rights. Not just gun rights, but speech, privacy, etc.  The problem is that the easy thing to do in response to tragedy is to look to "the government" to do something, usually to create some new law.  REALLY?!  We need new laws?  We don't have enough already to cover every imaginable situation?  I think murder is already illegal, for instance.  we pass more and more laws that neuter individuals from handling their own problems, then are aghast when no one was there to stop a bad guy. Not speaking of this particular situation in that regard.

As long as we keep looking to the government to solve every bad thing that happens then we can expect more infringement on every aspect of our personal lives.  Per Chem Soldier's point about our power is in the number of gun owners, especially those really involved, I think our best investment is not so much in the political arena first, but in helping get more people, especially youth introduced to and involved in the shooting sports.  The political power will come from a growing base of gun owners and sport shooters.  I think this interminable war going on has had the unexpected side effect of introducing millions of young men and women to the AR15 platform.  For many of them that is the first firearm they handled and have working familiarity with.  I think that is partly contributing to the explosive growth in AR15 sales over the past 23 years, that and Clinton's AWBan that told us we couldn't have them!  Just like Prohibition, you tell the people you cannot own such and such, guess what, a LOT of folks all of a sudden want to own such and suches!
There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #84 on: October 12, 2017, 12:50:24 PM »

As long as we keep looking to the government to solve every bad thing that happens then we can expect more infringement on every aspect of our personal lives.  Per Chem Soldier's point about our power is in the number of gun owners, especially those really involved, I think our best investment is not so much in the political arena first, but in helping get more people, especially youth introduced to and involved in the shooting sports. 

You aren't the first to say that, and I really hope you aren't the last.

I have in the past got a few "anti-gun" people to try shooting.  While I've not ever converted them, all were some amount less hostile, and a degree of respect was created.
I know the cool thing is to say "molon labe" or "cold dead hands", etc.  but I've got a school teacher to go from "ban all the guns" to "I still don't like them, but I learned people can use them safe and responsibly."

Empathy matters too.  If you personally know someone impacted by some legislation or regulation, you'll at least take pause before supporting it.  I'm not usually supportive of unions, but I know many people who belong to one. When there's a local economic issue that could cost their jobs, I realize that could have a material impact to their families well being.  I stop and weigh the consequences, rather than just a partisan vote.

If we could increase the number of normally liberal voters to start having some empathy toward gun ownership, that would be HUGE! (say it in a Donald Trump voice)

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #85 on: October 12, 2017, 12:59:12 PM »

Offline David in MN

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #86 on: October 12, 2017, 01:21:20 PM »
Gun control is a perfect example of framing a debate. The debate is whether to ban "assault rifles". What? How am I preserving my rights by taking a side in that argument?

Let me be clear. I want full auto legalized, "destructive devices" legalized, and serial numbers done away with. I want zero gun laws. Theft and murder are crimes, property isn't. I'm not a bad person because I think a Thompson is gorgeous and want one.

For those who believe in magic paper you'll note "shall not be infringed" is the most severe language in the document. To be clear, the furthest fringe of arms is protected. Nobody needed a cannon to hunt and there's only one reason to shoot buck and ball from a Brown Bess.

I'm an extremist. I get it. But I'm sick of losing one yard at a time. I want the endzone. The gays didn't win their rights by polite petition, they threw blowjob parties in city streets. They hugged the beast. When someone talks about assault rifles, the only problem is that too many are already illegal.
The rotation of the earth really makes my day.

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #87 on: October 12, 2017, 06:13:36 PM »


Is that Nancy Pelosi before camera make-up?
There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #88 on: October 12, 2017, 06:19:15 PM »
...I want zero gun laws. Theft and murder are crimes, property isn't.
...
I'm an extremist. I get it. But I'm sick of losing one yard at a time. I want the endzone. The gays didn't win their rights by polite petition, they threw blowjob parties in city streets. They hugged the beast. When someone talks about assault rifles, the only problem is that too many are already illegal.

Perfectly stated and I agree 100%.  Outlawing property is stupid and never accomplishes the stated intent.  But it is so much easier to pass laws that only have to be enforced against law-abiding citizens (as per behavior).  Not to mention that outlawing property usually means confiscation and keeping/reselling said property: WIN-WIN-WIN for LE!!  And they even look like they are "do something" about crime, although every hour spent chasing down property is an hour not spent chasing down a murder, rapist, child molester.
There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: post vegas shooting
« Reply #89 on: October 12, 2017, 07:22:07 PM »
Latest Gun Gripes summarizes many points in this thread:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=1237s&v=pyncXIpMv6U