Author Topic: “I’m going to work until I die”  (Read 793 times)

Offline Smurf Hunter

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“I’m going to work until I die”
« on: October 05, 2017, 04:01:00 PM »
If this is not a personal survival topic, I'm not sure what is...

Quote
People are living longer, more expensive lives, often without much of a safety net. As a result, record numbers of Americans older than 65 are working — now nearly 1 in 5. That proportion has risen steadily over the past decade, and at a far faster rate than any other age group. Today, 9 million senior citizens work, compared with 4 million in 2000.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/national/seniors-financial-insecurity/?utm_term=.b55234565063

Offline surfivor

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2017, 04:34:29 PM »
->  “I’m going to work until I die”

 In that case, don't work too hard

Offline LvsChant

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2017, 04:39:56 PM »
Actually... I find work pretty fulfilling and plan to do some type of work probably forever.

Offline RitaRose1945

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2017, 04:47:18 PM »
I will technically retire in about 15 years, but I'm working on setting a side business or businesses that will allow me some additional cash flow when I do.  If I get them set up and they pay more than I'm making at my job, then I'm fine with that too, but for now, I'm looking at them for supplemental income now and when I retire.

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2017, 05:13:32 PM »
If this is not a personal survival topic, I'm not sure what is...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/national/seniors-financial-insecurity/?utm_term=.b55234565063

Sobering article.

If that doesn’t scare you into saving early and often for retirement, I don’t know what will.  Nobody is coming to the rescue.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 05:48:19 PM by FreeLancer »
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Offline David in MN

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2017, 05:50:32 PM »
I don't know. I'm on the fence. I feel bad but part of me screams, "dude, you retired with $5k in the bank?"

I do agree we should have a hard look at managed funds. Each one needs a magnifying glass. What's the load? Are you paying the dividends? Are there oddball fees?

I was particularly struck by the lady lamenting her $2k retirement account that was at one point $40k. As if she could live out her life with $40k.

The level of financial ignorance in this country is amazing. No pension, no IRA, no 401(k), no 403b, no savings and I'll be fine?

I plan to work until I die. My wife plans to work until I hit my number at which point she will read books and do family things. But we have a plan. Do these retirees even consult an advisor?
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Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2017, 06:09:55 PM »

I plan to work until I die. My wife plans to work until I hit my number at which point she will read books and do family things. But we have a plan. Do these retirees even consult an advisor?

About a decade ago we paid an attorney for some estate planning and he commented I was under insured.  I've got overlapping term life insurance policies and a token amount for free from my employer.  Between then it pays a bit more than 10 years gross income.  I don't need my family to live like royalty, but they can pay off the mortgage, car and college tuition and coast for a few years easily.  After that they can get their own jobs if they need more :)


Offline fritz_monroe

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2017, 06:33:52 PM »
Actually... I find work pretty fulfilling and plan to do some type of work probably forever.
Me too, but I believe what is meant is that I'm going to HAVE TO work until I die.

I'm pretty sure that even if I won a large amount of money that made it so I didn't need to work anymore, I'd still work in some way.
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Offline David in MN

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2017, 07:10:11 PM »
About a decade ago we paid an attorney for some estate planning and he commented I was under insured.  I've got overlapping term life insurance policies and a token amount for free from my employer.  Between then it pays a bit more than 10 years gross income.  I don't need my family to live like royalty, but they can pay off the mortgage, car and college tuition and coast for a few years easily.  After that they can get their own jobs if they need more :)



My planner told us we were both over-insured. Um, no. My wife has a stable engineering job that basically pays the bills and more importantly gets us insurance. I am an independent investor with a couple side hustles. In short, neither of us are replaceable. I'm more replaceable because my wife could turn it over to the advisor but she loses the stay at home parent. But I've squandered going back to my engineering degree.

She's a breadwinner and I'm a 1950s housewife who yields high return and does the home repair and runs a couple businesses. They are both hard roles to replace.
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Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2017, 07:20:18 PM »
The worst thing is being forced into doing something you don't want to do, just to survive.  So it is good to have Plan A and Plan B for not having to work and be able to fully retire.

HOWEVER! A couple of other things to consider:

1)  Plan to stay ACTIVE until you die.  That may mean continue working full or part time in a physically active job, and/or regular disciplined exercise, and/or frequent recreational activities.  Being at 63 my conclusion from the downward slope is: when you stop moving you start dying, so KEEP MOVING, friend!

2)  Obscene medical and long-term care costs can drain the largest retirement fund.  Keep insured but rules can change, insurance companies can go belly up, and you can't predict what your last years will be like.  So have a plan for how you will handle medical costs in your later years.  What you decide at 60 may be entirely different at 75, 85, 95.  For instance, my Dad had a heart valve replace when he was late 70s.  Kind of borderline whether that made sense but he was always in great physical shape so he went for it.  He never fully recovered.  Turns out he was already suffering early Parkinson's (undiagnosed) and the heart trouble accelerated it and 6 months after the heart valve operation he was having difficulty walking (stiff legs, balance).  He slowly decline to wheelchair and then bed bound and after several years of exhausting minute-to-minute care from my mom he passed away.  At the end pretty much everything had shut down--except his heart was beating strong!  Not a pretty scenario the last couple of weeks and that strong heart just kept him conscious through it all.  Even with great insurance it drained a lot of their savings.

3) Early dementia can also lead to devastating financial decision errors that wipe out savings.  Have a plan for giving up control and who will take over and by what means.  Having trusted offspring helps a bunch in this regard.  Even in a great family it is shocking to see vultures start to circle the savings/inheritance long before the last breath is out.  A family trust might be one option.  Or financial accounts with one or two offspring as co-owners.

4) No external entity is 100% safe for holding your retirement funds.  I have seen relatives wiped out because their company retirement fund went bankrupt the year before they were going to retire.  I consulted at a utility owned by Enron just at the time they went belly up.  A lot of friends had their entire retirement fund wiped out (it was all forced invested into Enron stock!).  In 2008 we saw brokerage firm using customer funds to cover internal "investments" in high risk trades (highly illegal but it happened anyway).  Have a retirement plan that does not depend on one source of holdings.

Considering all of these risk factors I think it is wise to plan to keep working beyond normal retirement age.  You might start withdrawing retire funds at some point, but consider staying in the work force in some manner.  If you are in your 60s and bail out of the work force for a couple of years, good luck with getting right back into it unless you have a very special skill not dependent on age, or you can restart a small business, etc.  You might want to use this as an opportunity to get into a line of work you never would have as a career but would be fun to do with less overhead costs.

Part of retirement planning should be to be totally out of debt before you retire if not already.  Make sure that house is paid off, you have good, reliable vehicle(s) that will last many years, no credit cards outstanding, etc.  We saw several acquaintances that retired with a heavily mortgaged house and either having to sell and move into very small apartment or go back to career work.

Often a well planned retirement can go just as anticipated and life is good.  But any one of these risk factors can and do crop up and can destroy everything if there is no contingency plan as well.
There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2017, 07:30:31 PM »
Wise words, NWP.
23:57:30

Offline RitaRose1945

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2017, 11:24:31 AM »
The worst thing is being forced into doing something you don't want to do, just to survive.  So it is good to have Plan A and Plan B for not having to work and be able to fully retire.

HOWEVER! A couple of other things to consider:

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Offline archer

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2017, 10:52:53 AM »
good info there NWP...


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Offline bigbear

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2017, 02:27:44 PM »
A little perspective is in order:  Until recently (like within the last 100-150 years), retirement was only for the very wealthy.  After Social Security and pension plans and all the other currency manipulation and industrial revolution...  It was built on ever increasing productivity, consumption, tax structures, and slight lever adjustments to shift some of it down the road.  Prior to that, most people worked in some way or other until they physically/mentally couldn't.  And they didn't have $X,000,000 to pay for medical costs to prolong life.  So they essentially worked until they died.  "Retirement" is a First World phenomena that may or may not be sustainable as a goal for the majority of people.  That doesn't mean to not plan for it.  That doesn't mean not be responsible. 

Economists haven't seen the wage growth they have been hoping for after the ongoing currency manipulation (low interest, helicopter money, QE).  They seem to think it's still coming.  But with developing nations putting pressure on domestic wages, it's easy to see the headwinds for "retirement" as we know it and as most people expect/hope for.
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Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2017, 04:16:49 PM »
A little perspective is in order:  Until recently (like within the last 100-150 years), retirement was only for the very wealthy.  After Social Security and pension plans and all the other currency manipulation and industrial revolution...  It was built on ever increasing productivity, consumption, tax structures, and slight lever adjustments to shift some of it down the road.  Prior to that, most people worked in some way or other until they physically/mentally couldn't.  And they didn't have $X,000,000 to pay for medical costs to prolong life.  So they essentially worked until they died.  "Retirement" is a First World phenomena that may or may not be sustainable as a goal for the majority of people.  That doesn't mean to not plan for it.  That doesn't mean not be responsible. 

Economists haven't seen the wage growth they have been hoping for after the ongoing currency manipulation (low interest, helicopter money, QE).  They seem to think it's still coming.  But with developing nations putting pressure on domestic wages, it's easy to see the headwinds for "retirement" as we know it and as most people expect/hope for.

I'm sure there are several other unintended consequences of the modern age.  The automobile allowed workers to live in suburbs and commute several miles each way.  This caused a boom in single family home construction a few generations ago.  Then of course the internet and mobile phones were believed to boost our productivity, but instead many of us are perpetually "on the clock" to a small degree.

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2017, 04:53:09 PM »
A little perspective is in order:  Until recently (like within the last 100-150 years), retirement was only for the very wealthy.  After Social Security and pension plans and all the other currency manipulation and industrial revolution...  It was built on ever increasing productivity, consumption, tax structures, and slight lever adjustments to shift some of it down the road.  Prior to that, most people worked in some way or other until they physically/mentally couldn't.  And they didn't have $X,000,000 to pay for medical costs to prolong life.  So they essentially worked until they died.  "Retirement" is a First World phenomena that may or may not be sustainable as a goal for the majority of people.  That doesn't mean to not plan for it.  That doesn't mean not be responsible. 

Economists haven't seen the wage growth they have been hoping for after the ongoing currency manipulation (low interest, helicopter money, QE).  They seem to think it's still coming.  But with developing nations putting pressure on domestic wages, it's easy to see the headwinds for "retirement" as we know it and as most people expect/hope for.

Very true.  Add to that that when Social Security was started in the 30s, the average workers only  lived a couple of years past "retirement age."  Now people can live 20-30 years after retiring.  A LOT can happen in 30 years to upset financial situation: need to hire more help as your mobility decreases, vastly greater medical expenses, constant barrage of scams to suck away savings, vehicles wear out, etc.  Plus, there is an expectation that you will be going on cruises and travel around.  Not to mention the societal and broader economic changes (bubbles, taxes, inflation). I think few people have a realistic idea and plan for the risks to be faced over 20-30 years of retirement.  I've seen a very few people enjoy the picture book retirement, very few.  I've seen many die long before retirement age, or acquire major disabilities prior or soon after retirement, savings wiped out, scams rip them off of everything, unbelievable medical expenses even with cadillac plans.
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Offline David in MN

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2017, 05:15:42 PM »
It's a little murky. My grandparents never retired, technically. When gramps dropped the day job they legally became farmers full time. Contract the land and work futures markets to balance risk. I guess for about 4 generations in my family there was no retirement as they just went back to the farm.

But then, the farm was a MASSIVE asset. My grandmother passed in a decrepit farmhouse with floors that weren't level, a roof that leaked, a heater that broke weekly, plumbing that was essentially a coin toss, and a failing foundation while sitting on $1 mil of land. Were it not for the garden, sunroom and her collection of cacti she'd have gone sooner. She loved that land.

So I don't know. We've only been industrialized a while. Even in the 30s the depression solution was to retreat to the farms. I think we're in a big experiment where we move away from the land as a primary resource. It's a good question. Would you swap your 401 for a few hundred acres of farmland? It damn near tore my family apart selling it.
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Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2017, 06:11:54 PM »
That is a very common situation, David.  Around this area there a lot of family farms dating back to the late 1800s.  They were passed on from gen1 to gen2 and perhaps gen3 intact, and even expanded as offspring started their own farms. Many farmers my age are now selling off large tracts and keeping 50 acres to lease out.  Nothing really sustainable to pass on to their kids.  And nowadays it is common NOT to pass the farm to the eldest or the one who stuck around, but it gets sold and divided evenly. Nothing left of a farm legacy.  Not many of the "kids" want to farm anymore.  Can't rely on cheap illegal immigrant labor as much as before.

I spent time in Iowa in the 1970s where this all happened decades ago and every family tract of 500 or so acres got bought up by the industrial Ag businesses.  You end up with fewer and fewer family farms and more vast horizon-to-horizon industrial farms.  Then they have such an advantage of economy of scale that the family farms struggle to compete in their own area.

Same old story: Big govt eventually leads to loss of family businesses and consolidation of resources into a few multi-national corps.  Big loves big and squashes small.  And most of the local family farms were all for government intervention: favorable tax rates for farms, national subsidies, land use restrictions, etc.  You don't get govt favors without the blowback which is the giants crushing the family farm.

Just as we see the family doctor dying off under the burden of national healthcare, we see family farms withering away under tax/zoning/seed licensing/subsidies.

My paternal grandparents had an incredible place on Hood Canal for their retirement (Seabeck).  My grandfather nought two wooded lots in the 1950s with cash, then logged one of them and traded the local mill for finished lumber.  He used that to build a small cabin while he built his retirement house, then sold the cabin and its lot.  It was one of the very few places within miles that had easy access to a pristine gravel beach, the lawn literally sloped down to the beach.  He died at 75 after long years of dementia and hip problems.  My grandmother lived in her house until she died at 100 yrs. He had a govt pension from the shipyard and social sec. But they never had mortgage payments, not a day of debt of any kind, and their 1957 BelAir lasted until neither could drive. Then the beach house was sold to be divided up between three surviving sons and the buyer leveled the house (which had beautiful stonework, fireplace, built-in cabinets and firewood box) and built a strange modern copper clad thing.  No trace of that legacy left.

I think being free of debt and keeping as small an expense footprint as possible helps a lot.  My grandparents also had a thriving garden and beehives that supplied much of their table produce, plus canning.  They could walk to the local marina/market for their mail and groceries.  The VA covered the worst of my grandfather's care (not ideal but better than not or facing crippling debt).
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Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2017, 08:50:16 AM »
Hood Canal is nice.  I spent time in that area 3 different times last summer.  It's interesting how the real estate prices vary from opposite sides of the bridge.

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