Author Topic: “I’m going to work until I die”  (Read 3352 times)

Offline David in MN

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2017, 06:25:39 PM »
Gen Xers have job hopped like no others before.  And they don't rollover their 401k into an IRA for various reasons.  We (I'm late Gen-X) don't have pensions or health benefits upon retirement.  And most of our early jobs didn't have 401k plans with automatic enrollment.  IRS/DOL have set a lot of protective measures in place for companies to set up automatic contribution arrangements over the 10-20 years.  More recent generations at least have that going for them.  Using the "4th Turning" vernacular, we're a lost generation in many ways.

No kidding. I just didn't realize how bad it is.

Regarding contribution rates:  there is no excuse not to contribute whatever gets you a company match.  I can get there may be reasons for not doing 10%.  But I cannot understand not doing 4% or 6% or whatever it is that maximizes however much company money you can get for free.

I was brought up that 10% is the standard. We actually try for 20% ourselves. I can see only putting the matching 4, 6, or whatever in a 401 but you also need an IRA and a Roth. Funny to think about it now, but when the market blew up in 2007/2008 both my parents called my sister first. They both (divorced) told me later that essentially I'm a conservative Midwest type but my sister is now an East Coast type. I guess we have a reputation for being savers.

My family is a crazy outlier but my wife kinda wants to be retired by 55. We might make it happen.
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Offline Carl

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2017, 06:28:56 PM »
  Cash value life insurance is a great way to TAX FREE help your offspring when you leave ,and better than most other methods .
Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Radios are pointless without someone trained to use them.

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2017, 06:48:02 PM »
There are many factors leading to the deplorable state of personal finances.  A good portion is clearly lack of planning and discipline to execute.  But even among those who went that route faithfully, unforeseen situations smacked them down to the "getting by for now" club.  We know several families devastated by a spouse or child having a long, EXPENSIVE illness and often death.  The interim loss of income and medical bills created so much debt that the life insurance and 401K that got drained was just treading water.  This is why I think it is SO IMPORTANT that every adult carefully think through just how much treatment you really want considering the impact it will have on your family.  I am very much pro-life but that does not mean pursuing extraordinary and obscenely expensive treatments, no matter how heart wrenching facing reality may be.

Another blind-sided situation is having your money looted.  Granted, having all your retirement savings in one place is poor planning.  But the various stock bubbles (indirect, but intentional looting), and private pension plan failures, leveled a few more folks we know.  Not everyone is a savvy investor reading the financial section every day and researching fundamentals, etc.  Some were able to recover, but others that were hit with mortgage problems at the same time did not have the reserve to build back up.  A LOT of folks don't even know what a stock index is, let alone how to invest in it.  They trust/hope whoever they happen to come across to be honest and actually care about its fund customers (hahahahahaha, I can imagine the brokers rolling on the floor, including some I knew and did work for).

Another factor is undiagnosed diminished mental capacity.  People who saved a ton fritter it away when their decision making ability frays and falls apart.  Some times family members/spouses can catch it before disaster, other times the damage is done too soon.

The vast majority of folks at risk or struggling now were either greedy wanting neat stuff now rather than comfort later, were lead astray by the lure of govt promising more and more to take care of them, and of course a public school system that cares more about your gender identity crisis you are not aware of yet then educating you about financial planning, how banks and stock markets work, how to save and invest.

Let's face it, our government, corporations, and banks do everything they can do get you to spend every penny you have now and depend on govt handouts later.  Is it really a surprise that 50% adults followed this advice?  What single thing in our popular culture or education system has done anything to help people have the proper mindset of planning to be self-sufficient, avoid unaffordable health care and unscrupulous financial profesisonals, and "Oh by the way, we have baked in a 7%-10% inflation rate and change the metrics as needed to make it looks like 2%-3%."  Just the idea of the govt deliberately embedding a steady inflation rate and lying about it (real inflation is just another tax on everyone) is evil.  Even at a "modest" 3%, the dollar has lost most of its former purchasing power in 25 years.  A very nice full size sedan in 1973 cost $2,500.  Today you will be paying more like $30,000.  May parents' house on prime gravel beach on Puget Sound cost them $25,000 in 1960 and today would be closer to $700K - $1 million.

No, the deck is stacked against the average Joe/Jane to preserve and grow their financial reserve.  Everything in the world around them, including their government will work hard to strip it away.  It's ALWAYS been this way.  Except in the past it was more explicitly understood that it was you against the world full of con men and untrusty bankers and shady politicians.  Somehow those shysters managed to polish up a good face and people in the past 50-70 years started to believe you could trust others with your money management and we didn't have to worry our pretty little heads about such matters.  Perhaps we are coming to a point soon when the devastation will remind everyone that the world has not changed: YOU have to become savvy in life to squirrel away your money regularly and protect it against every person in a suit or swinging a hammer or styling a stethoscope--because they ALL want what you have saved and will lie and play the siren song to lull you asleep.
There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2017, 09:45:54 AM »
I appreciate the folks commenting here.  As many of you know, this topic is really not something easily brought up in polite company.
People either feel judged or even guilty, and that's a shame.

In my family's case, we were brought up in middle to upper-middle class families.  Living on the west coast, property values have gone bananas over the past couple generations.
Growing up most everyone I knew could double their money on a home in a decade. My dad had a partial pension and later started a 401K the last decade he was working.

To summarize that strategy, buy the best property you can afford, work for a good employer for 30 years and be patient.  - LOL what a crock...

If I were to walk through my own experience of the last decade:

Bought a house 10 years ago.  Today it is worth about 5% less than I paid.
Been putting around 10% into 401K savings into the "recommended" investments and it's appreciated 17% in aggregate.

So I have a 1.5 years salary in retirement and my home's equity is almost 25% of the market value.

Depending on who I share this with, I'm either complaining or bragging.

Offline Carl

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2017, 10:02:07 AM »
  The United States has the richest poor people in the world.
Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Radios are pointless without someone trained to use them.

Offline bigbear

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2017, 10:22:14 AM »
  The United States has the richest poor people in the world.

Partially paid for by future generations.
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Offline David in MN

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2017, 11:18:05 AM »
I get the hurdles. But at the same time it's never been easier. Brokerage fees that averaged $45 in the 80s are today $7. You can open an IRA in 10 minutes online. Vanguard has pioneered low load funds and others are striving to match. This has been going on since the mid 90s when these 55 year olds were 35 and prime earners.

It's not a problem of financial savvy or being adept at picking funds, it's about savings. This is the first generation without savings. And it ain't going to get better down the line from the data I read.
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Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2017, 11:37:29 AM »
I get the hurdles. But at the same time it's never been easier. Brokerage fees that averaged $45 in the 80s are today $7. You can open an IRA in 10 minutes online. Vanguard has pioneered low load funds and others are striving to match. This has been going on since the mid 90s when these 55 year olds were 35 and prime earners.

It's not a problem of financial savvy or being adept at picking funds, it's about savings. This is the first generation without savings. And it ain't going to get better down the line from the data I read.

True.  All those depression era folks put away something each pay check for sure.

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2017, 05:38:42 PM »
True.  All those depression era folks put away something each pay check for sure.

That is very true, but not even that guarantees anything for the future.

Just a quick list of some calamities that have fallen on savers:

- Savings and loan bubble in mid-1980s:  Rainier Bank in Seattle was paying 13% on CDs (!!!!!) and everyone was buying those puppies.  I spoke before the WA State Retirement Investment Board asking them to keep the mutual fund pension option (it was pretty new at the time), and the entire board literally laughed at me for suggesting anyone should consider investing in anything else when 13% CDs were available.  Fortunately the Board kept the self-direct option for mutual funds and 3 months later Rainer went bankrupt and defaulted on billions of dollars in CDs.  Good God, a CD was considered ultra safe and recommended for retirees.  Ooops.

- Gold has GOT to be safe, right?  I mean, from time immemorial everyone knew having a stash of gold equaled financial safety. Around 1930 (?) Franklin Roosevelt made owning gold illegal and forced you to accept 2/3 of its value in  relatively new Federal Reserve Notes.  A 33% loss overnight.

- Saving Federal Reserve Notes must be safe then?  1973 Nixon voids Bretton Woods meaning foreign nations will no longer able to turn in the dollars they hold for gold reserves, and inflation roars off to where even CDs have to pay 13% to try to keep up (not).

- Lesson from Brazil 2000:  While hard to imagine we get to this point, it should still be a lesson on not to assume anything.  A friend in Brazil has a father who retired in 1999 and sold his office supply business.  When inflation was taking off due to national debt everyone (seems to be a theme here) kept their savings in the bank to earn enough "safe" interest to keep sort of up with inflation.  The father had a friend who had done the same: sold his business to retire and put it in the bank for safe keeping. After some months my friend's father got an uneasy gut feeling about the savings and withdrew every penny into cash.  His wife was livid--inflation would eat through their savings in a few years!  Within A FEW DAYS the government announces they have seized all domestic bank accounts AND "safe deposit" box cash, and customers will be "allowed" to keep 10%.  The other 90% will be used to pay down the national debt to foreign (global) banks.

And of course we have the housing boom/bust/underwater as Smurf mentioned that despoiled the sage advice that "real estate is always a good investment."  All of this is not to say don't save it is hopeless.   But to caution that no matter how successful you are at saving, if it is not very diversified, then you could be wiped out by your government, a bust in that market, or unscrupulous con men.  It is proven over time that whatever "everyone" assumes is safe, may be the exact target of the next politico over-step.  Think that 401K is safe?  There was serious talk in 2008 about the government possibly forcing 401Ks to divert to Treasuries.  It was only talk this time around.  401K/mutual fund, life insurance (those have defaulted before), real estate, bank savings/CD, cash itself, tulips.  The politicos/bankers have figured out how to drain the savings of the masses no matter how it is stored.

And even if you do manage to save and protect your savings, do you have a risk mitigation plan for long term elder care? Dementia before being institutionalized? Chronic and likely terminal illness that could drag out to a few years?

Do you have A Plan A, B and C?  If you are totally dependent on savings of any sort and let your ability to be earning income slip (health/fitness lapse, obsolete skills, etc) then you might wake one day to discover some fat cat figured out how to rob your savings in the night.  I really think we should all be striving to save, invest in diverse means, but also store up food and tools with skills to use them, learn new skills for self-sufficiency and barter, have a side business, be fit and able to continue working (if the need arises), have a house paid off and free of debt.  As I caution my adult offspring:  "If you don't have a spark of terror in your consciousness, then you are not paying attention to the world around you."  Never assume you have it figured out, always assume someone is working mighty hard 24/7 to find a way to confiscate/drain/steal/destroy your savings in whatever form.  And as the old saying goes, if your savings are all on paper and not in your grubby hands, then it can disappear in a flash beyond your control.
There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?

Offline Carl

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2017, 05:41:35 PM »
  I have the fruit jar savings and loan.
Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Radios are pointless without someone trained to use them.

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2017, 07:07:18 PM »
  I have the fruit jar savings and loan.

Sure, but you can't eat fruit jars...oh wait, uh...well...
There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?

Offline David in MN

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2017, 08:31:55 PM »
That is very true, but not even that guarantees anything for the future.

Just a quick list of some calamities that have fallen on savers:

- Savings and loan bubble in mid-1980s:  Rainier Bank in Seattle was paying 13% on CDs (!!!!!) and everyone was buying those puppies.  I spoke before the WA State Retirement Investment Board asking them to keep the mutual fund pension option (it was pretty new at the time), and the entire board literally laughed at me for suggesting anyone should consider investing in anything else when 13% CDs were available.  Fortunately the Board kept the self-direct option for mutual funds and 3 months later Rainer went bankrupt and defaulted on billions of dollars in CDs.  Good God, a CD was considered ultra safe and recommended for retirees.  Ooops.

- Gold has GOT to be safe, right?  I mean, from time immemorial everyone knew having a stash of gold equaled financial safety. Around 1930 (?) Franklin Roosevelt made owning gold illegal and forced you to accept 2/3 of its value in  relatively new Federal Reserve Notes.  A 33% loss overnight.

- Saving Federal Reserve Notes must be safe then?  1973 Nixon voids Bretton Woods meaning foreign nations will no longer able to turn in the dollars they hold for gold reserves, and inflation roars off to where even CDs have to pay 13% to try to keep up (not).

- Lesson from Brazil 2000:  While hard to imagine we get to this point, it should still be a lesson on not to assume anything.  A friend in Brazil has a father who retired in 1999 and sold his office supply business.  When inflation was taking off due to national debt everyone (seems to be a theme here) kept their savings in the bank to earn enough "safe" interest to keep sort of up with inflation.  The father had a friend who had done the same: sold his business to retire and put it in the bank for safe keeping. After some months my friend's father got an uneasy gut feeling about the savings and withdrew every penny into cash.  His wife was livid--inflation would eat through their savings in a few years!  Within A FEW DAYS the government announces they have seized all domestic bank accounts AND "safe deposit" box cash, and customers will be "allowed" to keep 10%.  The other 90% will be used to pay down the national debt to foreign (global) banks.

And of course we have the housing boom/bust/underwater as Smurf mentioned that despoiled the sage advice that "real estate is always a good investment."  All of this is not to say don't save it is hopeless.   But to caution that no matter how successful you are at saving, if it is not very diversified, then you could be wiped out by your government, a bust in that market, or unscrupulous con men.  It is proven over time that whatever "everyone" assumes is safe, may be the exact target of the next politico over-step.  Think that 401K is safe?  There was serious talk in 2008 about the government possibly forcing 401Ks to divert to Treasuries.  It was only talk this time around.  401K/mutual fund, life insurance (those have defaulted before), real estate, bank savings/CD, cash itself, tulips.  The politicos/bankers have figured out how to drain the savings of the masses no matter how it is stored.

And even if you do manage to save and protect your savings, do you have a risk mitigation plan for long term elder care? Dementia before being institutionalized? Chronic and likely terminal illness that could drag out to a few years?

Do you have A Plan A, B and C?  If you are totally dependent on savings of any sort and let your ability to be earning income slip (health/fitness lapse, obsolete skills, etc) then you might wake one day to discover some fat cat figured out how to rob your savings in the night.  I really think we should all be striving to save, invest in diverse means, but also store up food and tools with skills to use them, learn new skills for self-sufficiency and barter, have a side business, be fit and able to continue working (if the need arises), have a house paid off and free of debt.  As I caution my adult offspring:  "If you don't have a spark of terror in your consciousness, then you are not paying attention to the world around you."  Never assume you have it figured out, always assume someone is working mighty hard 24/7 to find a way to confiscate/drain/steal/destroy your savings in whatever form.  And as the old saying goes, if your savings are all on paper and not in your grubby hands, then it can disappear in a flash beyond your control.

Christ all Friday you make it sound like us fast and loose traders have the real security. Not that I disagree. A lot of "guaranteed" blew up.
Livin on a thin line, tell me now what are we supposed to do?

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2017, 03:00:25 AM »
Christ all Friday you make it sound like us fast and loose traders have the real security. Not that I disagree. A lot of "guaranteed" blew up.

I'm an optimist by nature  :D, otherwise I would be carrying a bucket of tar and a sack of feathers.
There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?

Offline Carl

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2017, 05:04:24 AM »
  There are no 'sure thing' investments...even land and homes .
Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Radios are pointless without someone trained to use them.

Offline bigbear

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2017, 09:52:26 AM »
Do you have A Plan A, B and C? 

The problem is that those who are not saving don't have a plan at all beyond gov't support.  Many of whom do so to maintain today's lifestyle. 

I get that there are some with very low income households and/or legitimately uncontrollable circumstances.  In ways, that's a separate issue.  But 50% of ALL people age 50-55 don't having $8k in retirement savings!  I'm sure flat screens, smartphones, and designer imports abound in that demographic...  and probably quite a few McMansions.  The fruit looks nice, but the core is rotten.  The taxpayer has naively fallen for the pretty wax coating of a sob story.

When those people are 65 and "retired," they'll also be full-time voters in the back pocket of AARP in support of big government...  "It's my money.  I paid into the system.  I have a right."
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Offline mountainmoma

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2017, 01:03:33 PM »
I'm an example of shit happens. But, I am still better off than the median, in many ways.

When I got divorced, I gave my ex my 401k to take more house equity. The house did turn out to be the better investment, but certainly not diversified. We would need to go to another thread to do justice to how being divorced with children, after being  housewife for years, ties your hands on decisions you can make. For one, you can't move to a cheaper area to live in.

Later, I became chronically ill. Best laid plans and all, all of a sudden couldnt work for money or in the household. Savings built up spent on medical bills. I live on a social security check, and not the max amount either, since my last years of work were low paid since I was also juggling the kids.

So, what has helped that isnt savings ? Same as mentioned. Anything and everything I did that saves me money now is what enables me to live on it.

No Debt. Paid off mortgage per its scheduale. Paid off second loan with child support ( since most of that debt was lawyers...) before all else, Peanut butter and beans are healthy, done 2 months before last check, as I can do basic math. No borrowing on credit cards, etc...

Shrink all recurring bills to minimum. No cable or cell phone. Heat with wood stove. Energy saving measures for electric, unplug stuff, laptops, LED's etc...The efficient woodstove, post 2001 refrig, efficient washer and solar electric and solar hot water were installed before I became ill. I have never regretted the money spent on this, as it was a window of time when I had the cash and now it saves me every single month.  Most of our cost benefit analysis on these things assumes that your life will continue as it is. But, what if your life doesnt continue as it is ? Any money you have in the bank will go to the medical bills. Or, in other scenarios mentioned up thread, government confiscation of one form or another. The lack of debt and the monthly bill savings do not go away, they are an investment and insurance in case the future does not go as planned.

Budget. Spend wisely, save even a little at a time adds up. Plan every dollar before spending. Put the money aside every month for known expenses, property tax, insurance, new tires and other wear and tear. This will save not having to borrow for the new tires, not have to pay monthly fees to pay insurance monthly when you can pay it annually. Any excess then can be saved or invested, even if it is an investment in an ounce of silver or long term food storage or garden beds. On a low budget, each of these small monthly savings add up. Buying in bulk saves money and gives more household security.

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Offline PorcupineKate

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2017, 01:47:36 PM »
Mountainmomma,

Your situation is one of my biggest fears.  While I am not worried about getting divorced I am terrified of medical bills wiping us out as my health declines.  This is what has happened to my sister and her husband.  They are in a giant hole of medical debt that they can not get out from. 

This thread and a few other things are really opening my eyes to the need for my husband and I to get organized.  We seriously need to start figuring all the long term financial stuff. While we have some savings we have too much debt and not enough insurance. We also have too much stuff and seriously need to simplify our lives so we can have a more resilient and stable future.


Offline mountainmoma

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2017, 02:54:22 PM »
I dont take out loans or charge for medical expenses. If you dont have it and it is life threatening, they have to look to government medical insurances or write it off, or you can make small monthly payments the rest of your life directly to the hospital. They cant take your house, do not put medical bills on a home equity line or charge card. There are many things I cant do or try because I cant afford it, but that is the nature of modern medical care possibilities, it is never ending things that can be tried, often for diminishing returns. I often just say "no". I did take out of my small emergency for my broken crown, but that is why that is there and I will be tossing all available funds back at that until even again. Got 10% off for paying cash, still horribly expensive, but at least that is something. It could well wipe out your savings, so make sure you can live without your savings. That is the key. If you can live off of a disability check if you had to, everything else, all potentially better scenarios, will just be that much easier. Yes, I vote for you to wipe out debt, possibly before having more savings, and organizing for peak resiliency with todays funds. Could be that a few wise purchases now will see you thru the "times get tough, or even if they dont..." future.
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Offline PorcupineKate

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2017, 03:31:54 PM »
Good advice.  It is one of the reasons we need to get our act together now. 

Offline David in MN

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2017, 04:24:47 PM »
I just heard a financial planner say that the 65% of all credit card users in the US carry a balance.  :jaw-drop:

I don't want to have a credit card vs. cash debate but I think we can all agree that paying off the card is the only responsible thing to do.

Just to be clear, the average American can't afford to retire, can't afford the car he's driving, can't afford his house, can't afford his TV, and has to pay 20% to Visa just to have shoes?

Everything I was raised to believe about money I assumed was global knowledge. The scales have fallen from my eyes. Now I feel like the 1% because I have a retirement plan, two cars we payed cash for (OK, we got a better deal financing the Toyota but we payed the balance ASAP), and overpay the mortgage. It might sound naive but I spent years wondering how people afforded new cars when I have only driven used beaters. Now I know: they can't. I thought I was normal on how I approach money.
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Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2017, 05:02:21 PM »
I just heard a financial planner say that the 65% of all credit card users in the US carry a balance.  :jaw-drop:

I don't want to have a credit card vs. cash debate but I think we can all agree that paying off the card is the only responsible thing to do.

Just to be clear, the average American can't afford to retire, can't afford the car he's driving, can't afford his house, can't afford his TV, and has to pay 20% to Visa just to have shoes?

I saw this the other day: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5064743/Shopper-tries-ring-1-800-goods-just-3-70.html 
"Preparedness, when properly pursued, is a way of life, not a sudden, spectacular program" - Spencer W. Kimball
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Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity

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Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2017, 04:51:47 AM »
...
Everything I was raised to believe about money I assumed was global knowledge. The scales have fallen from my eyes. Now I feel like the 1% because I have a retirement plan, two cars we payed cash for (OK, we got a better deal financing the Toyota but we payed the balance ASAP), and overpay the mortgage. It might sound naive but I spent years wondering how people afforded new cars when I have only driven used beaters. Now I know: they can't. I thought I was normal on how I approach money.

When my wife and I started listening to Dave Ramsey (15 yrs ago?!) we paid off our debts and accelerated our mortgage payments (re-fied the balance form 30 yr to 15 yr for a much cheaper rate).  We paid the new Honda off in 2 yrs and paid cash for my used diesel truck.  After that we realized most of those fancy cars and trucks on the road are heavily financed.  I love our old reliable vehicles (still have them, 2003 and 2004 in excellent condition) and marvel at the luxurious debt-mobiles going down the road.  Our daughters are debt free from the beginning except for a mortgage.  Life is so much simpler without the crushing credit card, car, second mortgage burden that many friends suffer through.  Very, very much of our "exuberant consumer economy" is driven on debt, just like our national budget spending 50% more than revenues.  Do our politicians mirror the population, or do we mimic our leaders?  Or is it a vicious cycle of both?
There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?

Offline David in MN

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2017, 10:24:41 PM »
I just got wind that 10% of student loans aren't being paid. That's 10% of 1.3 trillion dollars. And it's not getting better.

When I look at retirement, credit card debt, and student loans the housing crisis looks like a joke.
Livin on a thin line, tell me now what are we supposed to do?

Offline LvsChant

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2017, 06:44:52 AM »
Ugh... student loans. Another thing the government should have stayed out of.

Offline David in MN

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2017, 05:35:39 AM »
Ugh... student loans. Another thing the government should have stayed out of.

Why? If I'm the .gov I print funny money, give it to the bankers who in turn give it to 18 year old idiots who use it to debt themselves studying Sanskrit. But the pubic universities do my bidding, the teachers further belief in me and the institutions donate to me.

If it helps, just think of "student loans" as a money laundering system. If you disagree, sit in on a social science/journalism/communications class at your local university. It's stuff 3rd graders could do for a reason.

"Education" enriches teachers, administrators, bankers, and politicians. And that lifetime of crippling debt means junior needs a corporate job to make the monthly payments. Everybody wins.
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Offline David in MN

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2017, 01:45:08 PM »
You can finance your iPhone out to 24 months... It takes 2 years to scrounge $1k?

https://appadvice.com/post/iphone-financing/753976

Of all the things I wouldn't finance a phone has to be #1. Besides, if you're the guy who needs the new iPhone you'll just be hungry again for the new one next year. It's a hedonic treadmill.

Just a nation of minimum payments I guess.
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Offline AvenueQ

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #56 on: November 26, 2017, 04:56:07 PM »
You can finance your iPhone out to 24 months... It takes 2 years to scrounge $1k?

https://appadvice.com/post/iphone-financing/753976

Of all the things I wouldn't finance a phone has to be #1. Besides, if you're the guy who needs the new iPhone you'll just be hungry again for the new one next year. It's a hedonic treadmill.

Just a nation of minimum payments I guess.

I noticed this the last time I bought a phone (2-3 years ago). I was also confused. Why offer this for phones but not other similarly-priced tech, like computers or video game consoles? I think it must be a holdover from when phones were included free or low-cost with contracts, since so many companies are now going the non-contract route and customers were getting sticker shock when seeing the *actual* price of their phone.

Or the majority really are all just living paycheck-to-paycheck. Yeesh.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #57 on: November 26, 2017, 10:22:55 PM »
Computers used to come with financing. We financed our first computer -- and furniture.... young and stupid. At least for the furniture. It was the beginning of personal computers and having a word processor was a very big help for my husbands grad school work. Apple offered financing for the first Mac, 1983.... we put the downpayment on a charge card ( the charge card was paid off quickly) I seem to recall that financing was more common than using a charge card then, maybe the interest rate was lower ?
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Offline David in MN

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2017, 06:36:52 AM »
Computers used to come with financing. We financed our first computer -- and furniture.... young and stupid. At least for the furniture. It was the beginning of personal computers and having a word processor was a very big help for my husbands grad school work. Apple offered financing for the first Mac, 1983.... we put the downpayment on a charge card ( the charge card was paid off quickly) I seem to recall that financing was more common than using a charge card then, maybe the interest rate was lower ?

Yeah, I remember being young and seeing "layaway" commercials. I guess that used to be common. They still offer weird no money down, no payments offers on furniture.

I doubt there's a human alive who would fault you for buying a computer to finish school, especially 30 years ago when grad school meant something.

I kinda feel that's the theme here. We all get financing a truck to start a landscaping business. Or taking a loan to expand a factory. But those have returns. Living in debt with no savings and struggling to pay the minimum monthly is a different animal. There's a guy out there right now who has a 10 year loan on his Escalade and is excited to finance his new iPhone. And he will work until he drops dead.
Livin on a thin line, tell me now what are we supposed to do?

Offline Carl

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Re: “I’m going to work until I die”
« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2017, 07:09:12 AM »
  To have better debt-ability ,it is healthy to buy some things on store credit (usually much lower rate than credit cards) and pay them off on,or ahead of time,to show a good history and responsibility. Then you would have a better capability to borrow when you need it.
Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

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