Author Topic: Finding property pins  (Read 1239 times)

Offline CagedFeral

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Finding property pins
« on: October 18, 2017, 04:20:03 AM »
Anyone able to explain the " Legal Description " junk from a county's Auditor web site?

Mine says Exactly this:
NE PT SW 1/4 TO NW COR
SE 1/4 V316 P391

I just can't make sense of it to be useful at all. I own 5 acres "more or less" and I know where one pin is and approximately where the other WAS for one side of my land.

Long story, but I'm pretty sure it was removed. I tried to find it again with no luck. I did find a couple tell tell signs of where it was and should be. I need a metal detector but I just bet that it won't help sense I'd bet next weeks pay that it's not there anymore.

I have a map of my land from 20 years ago but it's basically just a picture of properties. It has no detail. I have no actual  bearings to follow. I remember approximately where the back pin should be but can't find it. I know it's been messed with because I drove a galvanized pipe 3ft from it that should be about 12in high with marker tape. This pin is in the woods but still should have been easy to find after adding my pipe.

Anyway, any info on how to read the above or tips to use to find a pin will be great! Thanks.

 

 

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“Government, even in its best state is but a necessary evil; In its worst state, an intolerable one.” - Thomas Paine

Offline MIZZOU_RAH

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2017, 07:48:57 AM »
Hi Caged, I do a lot of work with property maps and legal descriptions for my day job.

Where is this property, like County and State? What you have there looks to me like a description from the PLSS system. "Northeast (point, portion?) of the southwest quarter to the Northwest (corner?) of the SE 1/4. If you tell me where this property is I can show you where to pull the PLSS grid for your area or do it for you. Once you overlay the grid and look at it on an aerial, the description should start to make sense. I'll send you a PM with my e-mail.
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Offline Carl

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2017, 08:45:22 AM »
  Probably best to get a surveyor to survey it again and mark it well.
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Offline FreeThinker

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2017, 12:21:56 PM »
I believe the "V" and "P" may refer to Volume and Page of the county land records kept by the County Clerk or Register of Deeds.  Might be worth a call to your county clerk and ask them to confirm, and request a photocopy of that page. 

Surveys can be expensive, I paid $1,200 to replace a single missing pin on a 1/8 acre lot a few years ago.  If a neighbor has a dispute with you, like your shed is over their property line or something, then I'd suggest letting them get the survey to prove it.  If it's not related to a dispute then maybe they'd be willing to share the cost of the survey with you to find their property boundary too.

Offline Hurricane

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2017, 04:24:25 PM »
If you know the dimensions of your property, you should be able to measure from the one pin you have. 1000ft by 1200ft, for example.

Can you ask any of the neighbors if they know their corners?

If your county has property records online, they may have dimensions or a better description there.
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Offline CagedFeral

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2017, 04:31:56 AM »
This land was divided up shortly before I bought it 21 years ago. I bought 5 acres when I should have bought 10!

A surveyor will probably be needed. I only have one pin to pin that causes trouble. I wonder if I could get one at 1/4 th the cost?

Any surveyors around SE Ohio who want to come make some money for a 1 pin to 1 pin survey? I only need a known pin to back pin marked. I'd love to have a true line to use this coming spring. I have plans for thorned black berries offset inside yet able to snag intruders!

 
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Offline Survival Librarian

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2017, 11:08:16 AM »
I work on the engineering side of an engineering and surveying firm, but I've helped out on a few surveys, so I can offer a little advice. Almost all surveyors use GPS, as long as it will work in the area being surveyed. 90% of the work is establishing the first point, which would be a property pin in this case. Once that has be established, it's almost trivial to do the calculations to find the others and mark them as well. So I doubt you'll find someone who'll do one at 1/4 the cost, but on the flip side, if they're locating one, it'll probably be the same cost to confirm the locations of the other pins.

If you do get a surveyor, make sure they give you the exact GPS coordinates for each pin. The standard accuracy for GPS surveys, at least the ones I work with, is 1/10 of a inch. With exact coordinates, if you'd every need to reestablish a pin, the entire process would take another surveyor 15 minutes, start to finish, and be much cheaper as well. Additionally, you could find them yourself using a consumer GPS unit for much cheaper than a survey, as long as you didn't need to be accurate to more than about a foot.

Finally, if you're having problems with people vandalizing your pins or if you just never want to worry about locating them again, put in monuments. A surveyor can do that for you, for a very "reasonable" price, but they're really pretty simple to make and install yourself.

For materials for each one, you'll need a 1.5' - 2' piece of 6" - 8" plastic pipe, a bag of sakcrete, and a 2' piece of 3/4" rebar. First, place your pipe standing with one opening on the floor and one at the top in a place where you can leave them set for a week, once they're filled you can't move them until they cure. Putting plastic under them to protect what's underneath isn't a bad idea either.

Mix the sakcrete with water until it's about the consistency of cake batter, then fill up your piece of pipe. Embed your rebar a foot into the top of it so there's still a foot remaining past the concrete, then let it cure for about a week. To install, simply bury the pipe with concrete portion of the monument 2-3 inches below the surface of the ground, with the rebar being used as the pin above ground.

It takes some effort, but is very doable as a one-man job. Keeping the concrete in the pipe makes it easier to work with and prevents someone from smashing the concrete around the top of it and removing the pin. If want to be as accurate as possible, place two stakes approx. 4' off of the property pin before you remove it to place the monument and use them to triangulate the exact location for the rebar.

A standard monument is usually enough to dissuade anyone who would be inclined to mess with a property pin. Even if they break or cut the rebar at ground level, the other half that's encased in concrete and buried is a cinch to relocate with a metal detector or even a shovel, if you have good measurements. However, for ultimate in permanance, you could upgrade to a 12" corrugated plastic pipe, increase the length to 2' - 2.5', and use 1.5" - 2" rebar. The only way someone is making a dent in one of those is heavy equipment and/or contractor grade power tools. Of course, the downside is the increased cost of materials and it would be difficult to install as a one-man job.

Anyways, hopefully you can get something useful out of that info dump,
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 11:27:00 AM by Survival Librarian »
We live in a world where the average person carries in their pocket a device, with more computing power than men went to the moon with, that allows them to, from almost anywhere on the planet, access the sum of human knowledge, immediately contact any other person on planet with a similar device, and have almost any object in the world they desire delivered to their front door in two days or less.

We squander more opportunity in one day than our ancestors had in their entire lives.

Offline CagedFeral

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2017, 04:43:31 AM »
Survival Librarian,
Good advice. When I find this pin again it's going to be marked amazingly well with atleast one redundant hidden way to find it.

I'm going to bury a large sandstone rock just barely covered with rebar laid around it.  3 or 4 ft inside my property.  I figure that will be stealth and give me a chance to find it by shovel or metal detector in the future. My galvanized pipe was apparently too easy to find and very easy to remove.

I don't mean to sound like I want to under pay a surveyor. They have skills I can't comprehend. I'm just literally wanting to find and verify one straight line pin to pin.   I'm hoping not to spend $600.

Survival Librarian. Do GPS surveys have anything to do with GIS maps? I'm seeing human error all over my gis.
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Offline Survival Librarian

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2017, 11:15:53 AM »
Redundancy is never a bad thing. My only concern with your plan would be to frost heave bringing your stone and rebar back to the surface after a few years. I suggested monuments as they are in the sweet spot of easy to locate, difficult to tamper with or remove, almost impossible to misidentify, and relatively low cost. Being vertical and deep, they are much less susceptible to frost heave. But naturally you know your situation better than anyone else, so I'm sure you'll make the decision that makes the most sense for you.

And I didn't mean to imply you were under paying a surveyor. I just wanted to point out that 90% of the work (and the cost) is to determine where the points should be located, which must be determined from the deeds and other records. They have no way of knowing if the existing property pin is correctly placed without first doing the research and the calculations. Once they've established one, finding the others is simple using that known point. That's why the cost of locationing one corner versus all four shouldn't be that much different. That's also why having the exact GPS coordinates greatly reduces the costs, as it eliminates a majority of the research that needs to be done beforehand.

As to GPS and GIS maps, GPS is the tool used to obtain survey data. GIS maps are maps created using survey data from a variety of sources. Counterintuitively, the more errors that appear in on a GIS map, the less likely it is that any human actually had a hand in creating it. GIS maps are usually created from pulling data points of given parameters from a database of survey data. These come from hundreds or thousands of separate surveys that while all following the established format, may use slightly different points of reference, coordinate planes, and/or scales, in addition to any human errors that may have occurred. An overview of the compiled map data by a human is necessary to make tweaks and adjustments to the data to ensure that it is all using the same frame of reference as well as correcting any mistakes.

The larger the data set and the more publicly available it is, the more likely that the GIS map created from it was done completely by automation without any review of the data, hence the larger number of errors on the map. I suspect this is the case with the map you are looking at. Most small government agencies can't justify the cost of having someone on staff updating and correcting their GIS maps. Within my company, we do have a small GIS team that work with our surveyors and engineers to correct, update, and maintain the GIS maps for a few dozen boroughs, townships, and municipal authorities that are our clients. This makes it more cost effective to keep accurate and up-to-date GIS maps, which, however, are not readily available the general public.
We live in a world where the average person carries in their pocket a device, with more computing power than men went to the moon with, that allows them to, from almost anywhere on the planet, access the sum of human knowledge, immediately contact any other person on planet with a similar device, and have almost any object in the world they desire delivered to their front door in two days or less.

We squander more opportunity in one day than our ancestors had in their entire lives.

Offline CagedFeral

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2017, 03:01:48 AM »
Survival Librarian,

Thanks. I do like your idea to mark. I will do this when I find the pins. I'd love to have the 3 pins that are in the woods marked like this.

I'm just thinking of redundant back up ways to mark. I'm still thinking like it's 1999. Having accurate GPS coordinates would be great.

I had a bit of an evil neighbor who originally put the house behind me in about 18 years ago. I knew he was a problem from the start so I went back and got lucky finding that pin. I dug about a foot diameter around it and deep enough for about 2 bags of quikcrete. I also put the galvinized pipe inside my line. I just wanted to make it easy to find. It's been years but I remember appro where it should be. The wife and I poked around about 90min with steel and should have seen the pipe or hit concrete. No luck but I found a spot that seemed like where it was. It was flat on this sloped land and the dirt felt softer like a back filler compared to soil all around it.
Anyway, I have every reason to think this guy pulled it out if for no other reason than to just cause me trouble later on. He was that kind of guy. BTW, I'm sure he stole our pure breed dog right out of our chain link back door fenced pin.

As far as these GIS maps, I'm not a fan!!
That back pin I been talking about and looking for actually looks to be right on GIS. If anything, it's showing my land going possibly too far back.
It's my known front pin by the road that GIS is showing about 12ft off that really worries me.
I have 2 right of ways going by this property line. They (I think) are 50ft wide each so I know the pin can't be a "center of right of way pin". I don't think pins are used to mark centers. It's a completely wacky GIS drawing of these right of ways.

It's hard to explain so I'll end this and see if I can post a picture.



Black & Gold.
“Government, even in its best state is but a necessary evil; In its worst state, an intolerable one.” - Thomas Paine

Offline CagedFeral

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2017, 03:56:08 AM »


GIS
Look at the different widths shown for the right of ways. Front to back.


GIS
Showing my garage way over yet look at the little known pin out by the road.



Known PIN.





I should also add that the county map I have from 20 years ago seems to show my property as wide in the east as it is to the west.

The little dot by the road IS a pin.
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Offline Carl

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2017, 04:32:13 AM »
  It is entirely likely that he dug it up but to prove this about your only legal recourse is a property survey and that is the only proof a court of law will accept and it sounds like you are headed that way.
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If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Offline CagedFeral

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2017, 05:27:00 AM »
Carl, You're probably right. DaNg iT!
I found this property line 20 years ago but thanks to one bad neighbor and a bad gis map I have to worry now.


Did my pictures work? I used photobucket.com
 Looks like it all failed.
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Offline Carl

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2017, 05:55:35 AM »
Carl, You're probably right. DaNg iT!
I found this property line 20 years ago but thanks to one bad neighbor and a bad gis map I have to worry now.


Did my pictures work? I used photobucket.com
 Looks like it all failed.

The photos did work long enough that I saw them ,but I guess they have a 'robot' the seeks and destroys.
I use fewer images now ,but find I can link to my FREE Google drive that is part of my GMAIL account and that works,
Photo sucket just will die on the vine before I pay their premium accout costs.


  I had a friend,who was a lawyer and owned some land right on the state line and had a dispute with where the property line was. The adjoining state had a deer hunting club that he felt were using his land and their deer stands were not allowed to stay in 'his' land.(note all of the past tense here?)
Several of the encroaching hunt club members were LEO and they decided to serve papers in the disputed area as they had no jurisdiction out of their state.My long time friend was being served by the same people he had the dispute with. He drew his 44 revolver and received a softball sized hole through his chest. The date was 10/10/of 2010 and John Morneau could have just had the land surveyed for $1200 ,that I offered to pay,and still been alive today. I miss John, he was a good friend. Don't allow things to escalate and get the best of you.

https://mybossier.blogspot.com/2011/04/killing-of-vivian-attorney-john-morneau.html
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 06:10:03 AM by Carl »
Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Offline CagedFeral

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2017, 05:27:49 AM »
Carl,
I'm sorry to hear that happened. I remember being ran off land as a kid while deer hunting. I never once thought of using my gun to argue anything. It never even accrued to me!  Turned out we knew the same people and I was ok to be there. We ended up being good coon hunting buddies for years. When I was a kid I got lost and and came out in peoples back yard walking by their home with a gun to the road yet they just ask if any luck. Times sure have changed.

My new neighbors are about 26 years old. I know now that they had no idea what they bought. They literally thought they owned 1/2 my land (based on mow lines only). My property is back very close to their home. I never had any say about where that house went. I'm not sure why I'm to blame.  Seems like anyone who buys the junk land behind us resents us! I'm not willing to give 2.5 acres of my 5 acre plot to be neighborly.

This picture posting has me more confused than a property buying millennial who will trust gov't gis !
Black & Gold.
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Offline Carl

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2017, 06:17:30 AM »
  Photo Bucket changed their policy recently as I also enjoyed the ease of using the site and until I find an easy way , I will just use my Google Drive as it is FREE though I do pay $20 a year for 100 gig of extended storage and am happy with that.
Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Offline kckndrgn

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2017, 07:49:34 AM »
I know surveys will vary in price around the country, but I just had one done in May for building my garage.  Cost was $500.00, and I needed to locate one pin, the other 3 were known/marked.
The surveyor also marked the neighbors property (so they got a survey for free), I believe that was done to help with referencing points.  Turns out the missing corner pin was about 5' on the neighbors side, advantage me :)

BTW, there are fixes for Chrome and FF for the photobucket ripoff:
If you're using Google Chrome, go to the three dots on the right side of the screen and click them. A drop down should appear. Hover your mouse over "More Tools," and when the next drop down appears, click on extensions. Go to the link towards the bottom that says "Get more extensions." In the search box, type "Photobucket Fix," and hit enter. Click the install button and once it's done, you should be able to see photobucket pictures again.

For FireFox users, click on the three bars on the right side of the screen, then click on add ons. Click search for "photobucket hotlink" and click install. Same result.

I see the linked images just fine  ;)

When I look at the GIS images for my state, there is a disclaimer that the property lines my not be correct on the display and that it's done as a 'best fit'.

Get a property survey done, take lots of photo's of the markers they place.

Also, some states have a law about adverse possession (something like that anyway) where if someone claims the land is there's long enough or they maintain it for so many years, it becomes theirs.  My parents gained some land that way, not intentionally but when the neighbor sold their farm the developer started removing "our" fence.  had to go to court, but the land was transferred to my parents.

My hobby - Bolt Action pens and more: http://ryansturnings.etsy.com


Offline CagedFeral

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2017, 03:23:14 AM »
I know surveys will vary in price around the country, but I just had one done in May for building my garage.  Cost was $500.00, and I needed to locate one pin, the other 3 were known/marked.
The surveyor also marked the neighbors property (so they got a survey for free), I believe that was done to help with referencing points.  Turns out the missing corner pin was about 5' on the neighbors side, advantage me :)

BTW, there are fixes for Chrome and FF for the photobucket ripoff:
If you're using Google Chrome, go to the three dots on the right side of the screen and click them. A drop down should appear. Hover your mouse over "More Tools," and when the next drop down appears, click on extensions. Go to the link towards the bottom that says "Get more extensions." In the search box, type "Photobucket Fix," and hit enter. Click the install button and once it's done, you should be able to see photobucket pictures again.

For FireFox users, click on the three bars on the right side of the screen, then click on add ons. Click search for "photobucket hotlink" and click install. Same result.

I see the linked images just fine  ;)

When I look at the GIS images for my state, there is a disclaimer that the property lines my not be correct on the display and that it's done as a 'best fit'.

Get a property survey done, take lots of photo's of the markers they place.

Also, some states have a law about adverse possession (something like that anyway) where if someone claims the land is there's long enough or they maintain it for so many years, it becomes theirs.  My parents gained some land that way, not intentionally but when the neighbor sold their farm the developer started removing "our" fence.  had to go to court, but the land was transferred to my parents.


I need to try FF again. I had some problems with it locking up on me or something. I can't remember exactly but switched to Opera browser over a year ago. Opera works great and works fast but I'm finding more and more things like this about it. I've never gave Chrome a fair chance yet. Something about Google just makes me want to avoid it even though Youtube is probably my favorite place on the interwebs. It's right behind TSP anyway  :)

I think my first move is to get any info down at county offices. If I have bearings from the actual survey I think I can find them all.

I was telling my wife the same thing about the disclaimer. It basically says "Do not use our lines here for any reason" .
I also did some research about GIS and found out that surveyors love it because it generates so much work for them.
I guess Gov't can create jobs but in these cases it also causes neighbors not to be neighborly. I'm not sure it's worth it.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 03:33:31 AM by CagedFeral »
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Offline CagedFeral

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2017, 03:49:38 AM »
  Photo Bucket changed their policy recently as I also enjoyed the ease of using the site and until I find an easy way , I will just use my Google Drive as it is FREE though I do pay $20 a year for 100 gig of extended storage and am happy with that.

Yea. I've used PhotoBucket for years now.  I'm not sure why they are a big trouble now. I am holding out on using Google. I'm afraid of Google!  ;D
Black & Gold.
“Government, even in its best state is but a necessary evil; In its worst state, an intolerable one.” - Thomas Paine

Offline CagedFeral

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2017, 04:22:00 AM »
https://mybossier.blogspot.com/2011/04/killing-of-vivian-attorney-john-morneau.html

I was reading this and I just want to say again that I'm Sorry. No reason for loss of life. Loss of life over a man's ego will never be a fair trade.

I told my wife that if she ever sees me back down then it's because I have to by law. I have a gun and don't want to be in prison because of my ego.

I hope the guy who shot is locked up.
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“Government, even in its best state is but a necessary evil; In its worst state, an intolerable one.” - Thomas Paine

Offline Carl

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2017, 06:03:01 AM »
I was reading this and I just want to say again that I'm Sorry. No reason for loss of life. Loss of life over a man's ego will never be a fair trade.

I told my wife that if she ever sees me back down then it's because I have to by law. I have a gun and don't want to be in prison because of my ego.

I hope the guy who shot is locked up.

John was a good friend and a rights lawyer who often took on pro bono to help.
He was the lawyer who took the state to task and won OPEN CARRY in Louisiana and one can carry in the open any place where weapons are allowed. He let circumstances get the best of him and the LEO's he confronted and he was shot in a 'legal' shooting though it was set to be legal and no ,the shooter was not held liable as they were (5 or 6 of them) the very same people from the hunt club he had confrontations with in the past. He had a 44 in his hand and apparently would not drop it when commanded by LEO's in camouflage ...he is gone and no court will bring him back.
Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Offline CagedFeral

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2017, 04:32:37 AM »
Carl, I'm sorry this happened. Seems like there should be many options before the use of violence. I hate that a life was lost. Retreat is even honorable in some cases.
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“Government, even in its best state is but a necessary evil; In its worst state, an intolerable one.” - Thomas Paine

Offline Carl

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2017, 07:07:41 AM »
Carl, I'm sorry this happened. Seems like there should be many options before the use of violence. I hate that a life was lost. Retreat is even honorable in some cases.

There is no reason behind some things and I can't judge as I was not there and it is not my place to judge.
The pain of the loss still haunts me as I only wonder what would have happened had I been there as he wanted me to go with him.
Things can easily escallate to regretful action.
Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Offline CagedFeral

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2017, 05:34:06 AM »
There is no reason behind some things and I can't judge as I was not there and it is not my place to judge.
The pain of the loss still haunts me as I only wonder what would have happened had I been there as he wanted me to go with him.
Things can easily escallate to regretful action.

I doubt there's anyway you could have known or predicted something like that so don't hold on to any guilt. Sometimes things go wrong no matter what you do. It's most likely a good thing you weren't there. You might be gone too.
Black & Gold.
“Government, even in its best state is but a necessary evil; In its worst state, an intolerable one.” - Thomas Paine

Offline KellyAnn

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2017, 02:06:44 PM »
Good fences make good neighbors.

My advice would be that once you get the property lines determined and marked out, put up some fencing just inside your property line.  Doesn't have to be fancy or expensive or even tall if you don't want it to be.

Offline CagedFeral

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Re: Finding property pins
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2017, 02:58:54 AM »
Good fences make good neighbors.

I'm thinking a fence that can serve as a trellis for thorned blackberries and raspberries. Full sun on this southern line so I'm thinking multi-function.  I'd have to set it in atleast 6ft though. I'd want to be able to mow both sides so my neighbor doesn't have to get close when he mows. I'd want access to both side anyway.

It would establish a nice line but on the other hand it might be assumed the fence is the line and still have neighbors thinking they own 6 or 7ft onto me.  I'm thinking it all over for now.
Black & Gold.
“Government, even in its best state is but a necessary evil; In its worst state, an intolerable one.” - Thomas Paine