Author Topic: "Read only" forums  (Read 3951 times)

Offline Docwatmo

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2018, 07:20:06 AM »
Yes, we are working on this and hope to find an amicable solution, however, when it comes to polarizing issues, there sometimes aren't any medians that can work well.  In those cases, it's up to the participants to put on their big boy/girl panties and deal with it.   Running away isn't the answer (Yes it is an answer, but it's not the one we want to see, everyone is a welcomed participant in this forum and we look for your posts every day, this is a family, and like some familes, there can be discord, but we don't want to throw away relationships over things as simple as political "Opinion", as opinion is all that it is, each of us is simply sprouting our own opinion, it's not law, it's not forced compliance, it's simply opinion.   

There are some amazing people behind the scenes doing their best, and we have mods/admins from all political views (lefty, righty, progressive, centrist, conservative, libertarian, anarchist).  So there is no unilateral one way decisions.  These people are doing their absolute level best to find a point where civility meets discussion without allowing for angry rants and personal attacks.  There is no single simple answer to keeping the primary mission of this forum going while still allowing for open discussion on topics that can and do impact our daily lives.     Believe me when I say, it's not an easy task.  But we are working Together, to make it as good as possible for everyone.  This will take time.  We've experimented with different levels of moderation, and control, and the see-saw between freedom of expression and moderated civility keeps going back and forth, But I believe we are getting closer to a balance. 

PLEASE give us more time.  Many of the things we do takes days or weeks to find out if it works, or has any major caveats we hadn't considered. 

We are trying, we are doing our best, and I truly hope everyone understands that and sticks around.    If you must, walk away, just do it for a couple days, or a week or two, then come back and test the waters again.  No need to delete accounts and all that.   

Thanks for listening

Doc

Offline surfivor

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2018, 08:16:16 AM »
 You can already block new users from the tinfoil section and other areas. It probably wouldn't be that hard for a developer to make it so that you can either temporarily block people from political discussions or block people who don't want to partake in that. Just an idea for the future

Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2018, 08:45:14 AM »
Yes, we are working on this and hope to find an amicable solution, however, when it comes to polarizing issues, there sometimes aren't any medians that can work well.  In those cases, it's up to the participants to put on their big boy/girl panties and deal with it.   Running away isn't the answer (Yes it is an answer, but it's not the one we want to see, everyone is a welcomed participant in this forum and we look for your posts every day, this is a family, and like some familes, there can be discord, but we don't want to throw away relationships over things as simple as political "Opinion", as opinion is all that it is, each of us is simply sprouting our own opinion, it's not law, it's not forced compliance, it's simply opinion.   

There are some amazing people behind the scenes doing their best, and we have mods/admins from all political views (lefty, righty, progressive, centrist, conservative, libertarian, anarchist).  So there is no unilateral one way decisions.  These people are doing their absolute level best to find a point where civility meets discussion without allowing for angry rants and personal attacks.  There is no single simple answer to keeping the primary mission of this forum going while still allowing for open discussion on topics that can and do impact our daily lives.     Believe me when I say, it's not an easy task.  But we are working Together, to make it as good as possible for everyone.  This will take time.  We've experimented with different levels of moderation, and control, and the see-saw between freedom of expression and moderated civility keeps going back and forth, But I believe we are getting closer to a balance. 

PLEASE give us more time.  Many of the things we do takes days or weeks to find out if it works, or has any major caveats we hadn't considered. 

We are trying, we are doing our best, and I truly hope everyone understands that and sticks around.    If you must, walk away, just do it for a couple days, or a week or two, then come back and test the waters again.  No need to delete accounts and all that.   

Thanks for listening

Doc

y'all have a thankless job.  I am continually amazed at the community you guys have allowed to thrive here.  Allowed is not quite the word I want, as it implies we have your permission.  I am trying to use the idea of getting out of the way and only interfering when needed.
I am one with strong views, I like to discuss politics in general, and even argue points.  But I have come to a point in my life where my relationships are more important than debate.  And those I love, I love - even if they voted opposite of me.  Which is why when I saw my friends from college last summer, I avoided the topic completely (and it is possible they did also).  I have great "love" and respect for a lot of members here.  So I removed myself from the political discussions.
I hope we can find a solution.  We from all political sides need to be able to discuss without hate.

Offline archer

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2018, 08:46:06 AM »
You can already block new users from the tinfoil section and other areas. It probably wouldn't be that hard for a developer to make it so that you can either temporarily block people from political discussions or block people who don't want to partake in that. Just an idea for the future

we dont have a budget so paying a developer is out of the question.

if people dont like the political boards or any board, they can just not go there or even set those boards to be ignored.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2018, 09:27:43 AM »
I totally get why you stopped the discussion, it wasnt discussion and it made the whole place feel divisive. I think it is a wothwhile experiment at least and it will take more than  a few days, probably a few months, to see if the no commenting helps.

I also get why it is difficult NOT to be able to have this discussion, because, for example, someone may have a good point or insight we all could benefit from on the subject, let's say, of the Bundy trial results. However, that wasnt what was happening. And, I have seen where feelings from these things has absolutely spilled over to other threads on this forum, not overtly, but has put a damper on various people lightly participating in others threads or discussions.

IF the entire political threads went away entirely, it would still be a survival forum. But, it is part of survival to know which ways the political climate is blowing, so if there is a way to inform each other of something we missed, it is good.

Offline bigbear

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2018, 09:28:57 AM »
I'll chime in...  The community is becoming/has become toxic to itself (as evidenced by active members either leaving, posting less, emotional energy spent wrongly, distracted, discouraged...).  So the mods (I believe) are looking for ways to encourage community building with a preparation mindset instead of community toxicity.  And the push back is that locking down threads and topics doesn't encourage community building either.

As a part of this community:  I get tired of seeing personal attacks.  I get tired of seeing pointed posts that may not quite be personal attacks.  I get tired of seeing someone so blinded by their POV that they can't see how it impacts their judgment.  I've become jaded with some posters that I don't even read what they post because I basically know how it's going to end.  I'm not built up by that.  Maybe I should/we should chime in a call out the offenders publicly and privately.  (Thanks to Freelancer and David for doing just that.)

I want to believe that both/all sides are trying to do right by the community by sharing their points.  But the mentality of "the ends justifying the means" has torpedoed some reputations in my book.  (Which brings to mind an old Jewish proverb, "A good name is to be more desired than great wealth.") 

Potential solutions (among the many that I'm sure your mulling): 
1. Perhaps when someone gets X number of reports (and mods agree), their posts are reviewed by mods before they are made public (or not)?  The offender gets a message stating the offending post(s) and the consequences.  Then the mods can determine how long before the offenders come off probation for good behavior?  Then if that cycle happens a few times, they are blocked from posting?  Maybe that process can be limited to certain topic boards so it's not covering the whole forum for review?  I'm not sure how feasible that would be from a software or Mods time perspective...
2. Similar idea but it's a thread by thread issue.  Once a thread gets heated/reported, it's locked down for posts to be reviewed by Mods.  If nothing else, the lag in time may slow the conversation so that our cooler more rational side of our brain can prevail instead of just the knee-jerk emotional/sarcastic/slanted side. 
3.  I can't emphasize this point enough:  If nothing else, the lag in time may slow the conversation so that our cooler more rational side of our brain can prevail instead of just the knee-jerk emotional/sarcastic/slanted side.  Maybe some type of lag in general for certain boards.

Offline AvenueQ

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2018, 09:48:51 AM »
I'll chime in...  The community is becoming/has become toxic to itself (as evidenced by active members either leaving, posting less, emotional energy spent wrongly, distracted, discouraged...).  So the mods (I believe) are looking for ways to encourage community building with a preparation mindset instead of community toxicity.  And the push back is that locking down threads and topics doesn't encourage community building either.

As a part of this community:  I get tired of seeing personal attacks.  I get tired of seeing pointed posts that may not quite be personal attacks.  I get tired of seeing someone so blinded by their POV that they can't see how it impacts their judgment.  I've become jaded with some posters that I don't even read what they post because I basically know how it's going to end.  I'm not built up by that.  Maybe I should/we should chime in a call out the offenders publicly and privately.  (Thanks to Freelancer and David for doing just that.)

Well said. I have nothing but respect for the community here, and it saddens me to see some of the things that have been posted in the last year or so. I've learned valuable things from people here that I disagree with on lots of things. It's not as simple as "this person's bad, and this one's good," we all have knowledge to contribute. I think our "us vs. them" instinct is getting in the way, however, and I don't know what a good solution is. I know the mods are trying to make the best of a complicated and messy situation, so I support their decision, even if it's not ideal.

Offline archer

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2018, 09:50:05 AM »
I'll chime in...  The community is becoming/has become toxic to itself (as evidenced by active members either leaving, posting less, emotional energy spent wrongly, distracted, discouraged...).  So the mods (I believe) are looking for ways to encourage community building with a preparation mindset instead of community toxicity.  And the push back is that locking down threads and topics doesn't encourage community building either.

As a part of this community:  I get tired of seeing personal attacks.  I get tired of seeing pointed posts that may not quite be personal attacks.  I get tired of seeing someone so blinded by their POV that they can't see how it impacts their judgment.  I've become jaded with some posters that I don't even read what they post because I basically know how it's going to end.  I'm not built up by that.  Maybe I should/we should chime in a call out the offenders publicly and privately.  (Thanks to Freelancer and David for doing just that.)

I want to believe that both/all sides are trying to do right by the community by sharing their points.  But the mentality of "the ends justifying the means" has torpedoed some reputations in my book.  (Which brings to mind an old Jewish proverb, "A good name is to be more desired than great wealth.") 

Potential solutions (among the many that I'm sure your mulling): 
1. Perhaps when someone gets X number of reports (and mods agree), their posts are reviewed by mods before they are made public (or not)?  The offender gets a message stating the offending post(s) and the consequences.  Then the mods can determine how long before the offenders come off probation for good behavior?  Then if that cycle happens a few times, they are blocked from posting?  Maybe that process can be limited to certain topic boards so it's not covering the whole forum for review?  I'm not sure how feasible that would be from a software or Mods time perspective...
2. Similar idea but it's a thread by thread issue.  Once a thread gets heated/reported, it's locked down for posts to be reviewed by Mods.  If nothing else, the lag in time may slow the conversation so that our cooler more rational side of our brain can prevail instead of just the knee-jerk emotional/sarcastic/slanted side. 
3.  I can't emphasize this point enough:  If nothing else, the lag in time may slow the conversation so that our cooler more rational side of our brain can prevail instead of just the knee-jerk emotional/sarcastic/slanted side.  Maybe some type of lag in general for certain boards.

+1, wanna be a mod?

Offline fritz_monroe

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2018, 09:59:24 AM »
As a part of this community:  I get tired of seeing personal attacks.  I get tired of seeing pointed posts that may not quite be personal attacks.  I get tired of seeing someone so blinded by their POV that they can't see how it impacts their judgment.  I've become jaded with some posters that I don't even read what they post because I basically know how it's going to end.  I'm not built up by that.  Maybe I should/we should chime in a call out the offenders publicly and privately.  (Thanks to Freelancer and David for doing just that.)
Exactly how I feel, up to the public shaming.  But as a moderator, where does calling someone out for acting nasty become a personal attack in itself?

Potential solutions (among the many that I'm sure your mulling): 
1. Perhaps when someone gets X number of reports (and mods agree), their posts are reviewed by mods before they are made public (or not)?  The offender gets a message stating the offending post(s) and the consequences.  Then the mods can determine how long before the offenders come off probation for good behavior?  Then if that cycle happens a few times, they are blocked from posting?  Maybe that process can be limited to certain topic boards so it's not covering the whole forum for review?  I'm not sure how feasible that would be from a software or Mods time perspective...
2. Similar idea but it's a thread by thread issue.  Once a thread gets heated/reported, it's locked down for posts to be reviewed by Mods.  If nothing else, the lag in time may slow the conversation so that our cooler more rational side of our brain can prevail instead of just the knee-jerk emotional/sarcastic/slanted side. 
3.  I can't emphasize this point enough:  If nothing else, the lag in time may slow the conversation so that our cooler more rational side of our brain can prevail instead of just the knee-jerk emotional/sarcastic/slanted side.  Maybe some type of lag in general for certain boards.
Thanks for the suggestions.  Unfortunately looking at how often threads are reported only works if all forum members are in on it.  There are just a handful of the members that do the vast majority of reporting.  We really appreciate the reports since there's a small number of moderators and you guys end up identifying problems much quicker than we can ID them.

But because there's only a few people reporting posts, it would be fairly easily to steer the moderators to taking action against someone based on these reports.  We've had members that were really good at walking the line of what is allowable. 
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 11:08:09 AM by fritz_monroe »

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2018, 10:28:52 AM »
+1, wanna be a mod?

There's no need to threaten the poor guy.

Offline bigbear

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2018, 11:20:36 AM »
Exactly how I feel, up to the public shaming.  But as a moderator, where does calling someone out for acting nasty become a personal attack in itself?

Agreed.  That's a concern.  In my utopia, the goal isn't shaming.  But I can see how it can be used and/or taken as such.  Especially in the throws of a heated sparring session.  I think Freelancer and David both did that well.  Not sure how LVWood or Freelancer took it though. 

Unfortunately looking at how often threads are reported only works if all forum members are in on it.

At one point I almost posted to two people to "Get a room!" but didn't.  Maybe more who are frustrated should report more?  Kind of a voting feature for the voice of the community. 

I don't think people want threads locked down when the minority of people (albeit active people) can't control themselves for whatever reason.  I can imagine it's tough as a mod when the tools are limited.

+1, wanna be a mod?
:stop: 

There's no need to threaten the poor guy.
:spit:

Offline Carl

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2018, 12:53:33 PM »
Yea.

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2018, 02:41:12 PM »
Okay, here you go.  Have fun...

About the Political Sandbox

Also, the Tin Foil Hat Brigade has been re-opened.

Offline Polar Bear

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2018, 05:56:00 AM »
Thanks for remaking the political section. I'm not sure if it's crazy or not, but I have a sneaking feeling you moderators are fortified and heavily stocked with extra popcorn. So I'll end with this.

It's raining threads
Hallelujah
It's raining threads
Amen

Offline Carl

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2018, 06:14:54 AM »
  I feel 'more responsible' for items I post but do wish others would post as my view can be a bit narrow.

 :popcorn: :popcorn:  It does taste fresher today and the vinegar and sea salt popcorn is an interesting flavor.

Offline fritz_monroe

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2018, 06:24:41 AM »
my view can be a bit narrow.
Really?  I hadn't noticed.   ;D

Offline Carl

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2018, 06:39:10 AM »

Offline archer

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2018, 09:33:04 AM »
Thanks for remaking the political section. I'm not sure if it's crazy or not, but I have a sneaking feeling you moderators are fortified and heavily stocked with extra popcorn. So I'll end with this.

oh we are fortified all right... with large quantities of alcohol and pain meds...

Offline David in MN

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2018, 07:50:29 PM »
I can't say I'm happy. I've lost contact with some who I truly value and it's left me scrambling to have contact with those I fear to lose and lashing out at those I fear in general.

I'm going to close some stuff up but then it's time to walk the desert again.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2018, 08:46:08 PM »
I can't say I'm happy. I've lost contact with some who I truly value and it's left me scrambling to have contact with those I fear to lose and lashing out at those I fear in general.

I'm going to close some stuff up but then it's time to walk the desert again.

 :'(

I am hopeful it will settle out, I have found "in the real world" around me, it is, so I think it will here too soon. My sewing workshop I went to on saturday was t the local cooperative/anarchy(not the tsp definition...) compound and it is better now, I was right to take the risk and no politics was brought up by anyone ( Hurrah ! ) just the sewing we were there to do

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2018, 09:58:32 PM »
I'm going to close some stuff up but then it's time to walk the desert again.
After a year+ like this last one it's completely understandable.  I've taken that walk a couple of times, but ended up back here.  Please though, don't "go guest" – hang onto your key, come back when you're ready.

Offline surfivor

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Re: "Read only" forums
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2018, 12:17:16 AM »
I can't say I'm happy. I've lost contact with some who I truly value and it's left me scrambling to have contact with those I fear to lose and lashing out at those I fear in general.

I'm going to close some stuff up but then it's time to walk the desert again.

Hope to see you again, don't leave us alone out here to fend for ourselves when the wolves may return