Author Topic: OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff  (Read 990 times)

Offline kid_couteau

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OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff
« on: May 04, 2018, 06:15:18 AM »
I see me putting posts in different threads basically asking the same thing. Sorry been a rough week.

Ok at the end of it all I would like to be able to use HAM to send a file [pdf, document, small stuff] from one android device to another.

I need to be able to do it with small stuff so there is less stuff in the old ARES kit.

Can it be done please?

Thank you for the help guys  ;D

Kid Couteau

Offline Carl

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Re: OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2018, 06:51:06 AM »
I shared this question with people who are more current as it was 20 years ago that I used APRS and my answer would be that you must copy and paste the text rather than send it as a computer file...but that may have changed . I hope one of the guys will be able to assist soon. DON had used PSK31 on a UV5 2 meter to send text ,but not as a computer file (PDF,TXT,DOC) just as copied and pasted text into the TX window of the PSK software.

  Perhaps you will discover the way to do this?

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2018, 07:20:59 AM »
I'm going to put on my engineering hat before answering...

1) how large is the file?
2) is it a file itself or the content contained within that matters?
3) from the user's point can this be asynchronous?
4) what distance are the stations?
5) is there a minimum required transget speed?

It may well be that an outside the box solution solves your problem in a simpler way.

For example, just because twitter can send small chunks of text REALLY quickly and accurately does not mean it's appropriate for large legal documents :)

Offline kid_couteau

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Re: OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2018, 08:44:23 AM »
Scenario:
Sometimes during an emergency a signed document needs to go from point A to point B.

So document is signed by official, picture of document is taken or scanned into device

Transmitted to other radio

Received and then printed out

This help?

Offline DonC

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Re: OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2018, 09:08:55 AM »
I'm sorry to inform you, but APRS is not the mode you'd want to use for such a scenario! Radio to radio for such a file doesn't exist as far as I know. APRS is for short quick messages. And while you can send small pictures with the right equipment (expensive), we're not talking super hi resolution.

The only mode that would work for what you're referring would be WinLink! It's a radio to email based program. And I'm sure Smurf can confirm that wouldn't be an ideal setup in an emergency situation. However, it could be done.

Sorry it's not the answer you're looking for! Google WinLink/RMS Express.

May the 4th be with you!

Offline Carl

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Re: OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2018, 09:49:44 AM »
  And I just got secure mail from JEFF (who works in Global Command ,used to be SAC) and here is his short reply:

I don’t know how to send anything except text files—and small ones at that.  I think winlink only does 60 kB or something like that


Now to my thought...as the original signed document must stay where it began...no transporters yet exist... an Identifier code (effective signature) can be added to insure the 'copy' is a match as if FORMAL FORMAT is followed by word count ,date,and time initiated as it is an insecure medium and encryption is not allowed on HAM radio.

That said. when my first grandson was born and my son was under the sea...I used an old program called UUENCODE and UUDECODE to convert a JPEG image to text and passed it through the needle of approval for communications to forward to my son...This was the first transfer of such an image as it required 50 K TEXT ONLY as very limited bandwidth was available...it was a success and later prompted me to pass PSK31 to the Navy Comms man to allow them the method of using their full bandwidth for up to 15 such channels of message to be carried in their bandwidth at the same time...just required a recorder at each end to send receive so much more information...OLD TECHNOLOGY and INNOVATION can win out...don't say WHY, but say WHY NOT...As I ,and my tech,are old some of you may not follow fully what was 'ground breaking' and rule bending at the time as the NEW TECHNOLOGY I often use comes from the forgotten past...same with my antennas, just things long forgotten... 

Offline Carl

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Re: OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2018, 10:03:19 AM »
  Ham routinely transfer photos and slow scan TV on radio,though maybe not at quality demands of a legal document .
FREE software is easy ,though maybe not for your current devices. UHF will have better bandwidth though end to end
transfer can have static as error correction is not so good.

In the past ,there was a 2 meter handy talkie that had a VGA camera ,and display...It came and went with little notice,
I think it was a KENWOOD device. There are possibilities to explore with this......and the nuances of signal degradation and shift
with propagation and polarity skew.  I would look at WEFAX as a start.I love a problem ...
sorry that I lose organization as I have begun chemo again and the morphine adds distraction. Maybe we will get an answer from the past.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2018, 10:14:40 AM »
AndFLMSG used with appropriate hardware should be able to do it. Not my cup of tea so cant advise on inatall.  But search for that and you may find an answer.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2018, 10:48:59 AM »
AndFLMSG used with appropriate hardware should be able to do it. Not my cup of tea so cant advise on inatall.  But search for that and you may find an answer.

Watch this here: https://youtu.be/OaIVRenHIFo.  You would just set up a template for the appropriate file type. 

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2018, 11:34:58 AM »
Winlink gets you closer, but as Don said it's not gmail.  If your ARES (or similar) team drills on the FEMA ICS stuff, you likely have practiced sending incident and status reports this way.

The software (RMS express) actually has some canned templates and you can make more.  Basically this allows the actual email message to only contain plain text, but the display formatting (think HTML) remains on the client side.

Suppose you want to send a status report to command.  You'd fire up RMS express, compose a new message and select a form (template).



That actually launches a local webpage in your browser.  You fill in the form like a normal web page and then submit it.



After submitting, you'll notice the body of the winlink draft email is populated using the VALUES you entered in the form.  There's no tables, colors, or anything fancy.
But notice how there's an XML file attached.  That is the style formatting that is used to display the data in a pretty format for upper management/brass.



When command receives this message, they locally use that attached XML with the email body contents to render the pretty report.

From a payload perspective, this is MUCH lighter than generating a PDF and attempting to transfer that.  Remember, on a good day we're moving at 1200 baud.  This is 1985 state of the art data transfer, but over RF.

That's the most common case, but I can also attach "normal" files, but be cautious of size.
Referring to this site: http://www.ashep.com/sw/data-xfer-speed.html

@ 1200 baud, it would theoretically take 6,990 seconds, or nearly 2 hours to send a 1 MB file. 
That's right - more than 2 hours to transfer a 3.5" floppy disc from 1995.

9600 baud VHF packet is a thing, but not all radios can support it (well) and it may require some more specialized sound card interface/TNC.  I understand even the popular TigerTronics USB signalink lacks TX/RX switching speed that can reliably support 9600. (rumor is a new product will be released this summer, but I digress).
But even if you and the other station both had 9600 supported hardware, you're still waiting 873 seconds for 1 MB. Okay, now we're down to 14 minutes or so.  Maybe you kick off the transfer and go make a sandwich. That also assumes your connection is solid and won't get interrupted.  RF packet links are relatively flakey, and often resending of packets is a common thing.  This is a long way of saying you'll likely be SLOWER than 1200 or 9600 in the real world.

So these practical limitations are a big reason there aren't more tools to solve your problem.

Offline kid_couteau

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Re: OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2018, 12:22:35 PM »
Thank you All
On the winlink
I see it is USB
With an OTG connector could I use it on an android tablet?

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2018, 12:35:42 PM »
Thank you All
On the winlink
I see it is USB
With an OTG connector could I use it on an android tablet?

Do you mean signalink?  Assuming your android device detects and support it as USB CODEC, yes.  I've used the OTG thing to connect an SDR dongle to my android phone.

Offline SCWolverine

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Re: OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2018, 01:11:20 PM »
Here locally we've now gotten more than 2 stations on 2m packet and it's chugging along really well.  It was a desire of mine for at least 4 or 5 years that ARES has finally brought to life, and it's blooming! 
Why do I mention packet? 
Well, it's kinda cheap-pretty easy-and is solid as a rock!
It'll also do what you're wanting (see Smurfs post above).  When I quit the podcast I also quit ARES so I'm outta the loop (not even checking into nets) but understand they are planning to run an entire exercise this week on the back of 2m Packet.  I'd be happy to relay the success or failures of said Exercise once the AAR comes in.

sidenote:

I just bought a Win10 Tablet for $60 to tote around with my rigs (it'll do anything my laptop will **Signalink/FLDigi** plus run on a 5vdc USB charger)

Offline Sailor

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Re: OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2018, 05:26:00 AM »
Winlink/RMS is windows only.  Email to SMS works well with it, and could be helpful when reaching out to infrastructure damaged areas. 

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: OK guys I think I got crosswired with APRS and stuff
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2018, 06:48:57 AM »
Winlink/RMS is windows only.

Pat (http://getpat.io) can reportedly be compiled to run on android with a kiss tnc but it doesnt have an installer yet.  Mobilinkd users everywhere are anxiously awaiting this.