Author Topic: County-by-county analysis of vaccine nonmedical exemptions reveals hotspots  (Read 7837 times)

Online FreeLancer

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I don't know, if anything, it sounds like Gottlieb pissed off Big Tobacco, which apparently trumps his Big Pharma connections.

Glad to hear Rand still believes in vaccination, though.  You never know with that guy....

Online FreeLancer

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Kids these days.....

Teen tells Senate why he defied his mom to get vaccinated

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Ethan Lindenberger of Norwalk, Ohio, said his mother’s “love, affection and care is apparent,” but that she was steeped in online conspiracies that make him and his siblings vulnerable to vaccine-preventable diseases like the ongoing measles outbreaks.

“I grew up under my mother’s beliefs that vaccines are dangerous,” Lindenberger told a Senate health committee. He’d show her scientific studies but said she instead turned to illegitimate sources that “instill fear into the public.

Last December, despite his mother’s disapproval and realizing that “my school viewed me as a health threat,” Lindenberger began catching up on his missed immunizations. He told lawmakers it’s important “to inform people about how to find good information” and to remind them how dangerous these diseases really are.

Offline David in MN

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Kids these days.....

Teen tells Senate why he defied his mom to get vaccinated

It's an interesting story. And it highlights how sticky the subject can be. I'll be frank and say he turned 18 and made better choices than his mom. But I'm also nervous in that I doubt either used any kind of statistical modeling or analysis to make these decisions. And there is that little thing that it was the government who gave her 12 years of education and she still can't do math.

Also a little odd whenever kids testify before the government. He's no expert. Not a doctor, statistician, genomics expert, or anything that would qualify him to have an opinion that would be beneficial to anyone with rational thought. I've been in a 4 car pileup but Ford and Chevy don't ask me to help design safety features.

The sad thing is that it highlights the failure of the medical and scientific communities. [And REALLY the education system.] A parent who is capable of math would never refuse the MMR. There are risks, like with anything we do, but the MMR is such a low risk to offset a bad risk it's a no-brainer. Buta few rare interactions and some shady business/government stuff (like HPV in Texas) and it becomes understandable that some will be led by the story rather than the math. Can everyone be a spergy nerd like me? I would hope that when it comes to the health of a child all parents consult a doctor and then spend time researching the actual numbers provided in JAMA or Lancett but I suspect I'm one of the few...

Health is definitely a place where "trust the system" has failed. Whether it's diet, exercise, or really anything it's been turned over and refuted. When I was a kid we were being told to eat margarine on Wonderbread and run a lot. Now I eat eggs, fast (that was a newbie), and lift heavy weights. Medicine chased out Semmelweis for suggesting hand washing was a good idea. Those of us who have worked in the health world have a spotty resume. We're the people who brought you the food pyramid, Vioxx, and claimed Theranos would lead us to the future.

I don't know how to regain trust. Especially when those of us in health and wellness will admit we're probably wrong about some things. If I'm honest I don't like the way the FDA works with big companies in food or drugs. And while (I suspect) the people on this forum would happily read a health optimizing book by Nassim Taleb or Freakonomics it's not going to catch on.

Offline Smurf Hunter

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It's an interesting story. And it highlights how sticky the subject can be. I'll be frank and say he turned 18 and made better choices than his mom. But I'm also nervous in that I doubt either used any kind of statistical modeling or analysis to make these decisions. And there is that little thing that it was the government who gave her 12 years of education and she still can't do math.

Also a little odd whenever kids testify before the government. He's no expert. Not a doctor, statistician, genomics expert, or anything that would qualify him to have an opinion that would be beneficial to anyone with rational thought. I've been in a 4 car pileup but Ford and Chevy don't ask me to help design safety features.


I'm going to be slightly contrarian, just for the sake of it...

As humans we should have the ability to make snap decisions, and wouldn't survive traumatic situations in many cases if we waited for all the data.
I imagine primitive humans learned quickly not to hastily enter dark caves due to risk of predators.  The risk/reward is obvious, and it's not worth much thought.

However applying the same instincts in our complex modern society with institutions, and corporations each with their own agendas doesn't work the same.
The lazy conclusion is to trust no one, but then you miss out on all the good stuff (e.g. the Amish).

Point is, we aren't created or evolved to evaluate a dozen lunch options, let alone as many insurance plans, or financial investments. 
If you aren't starving, eat the food you anecdotally believe is not poisonous.  If you are starving, and have only one choice, roll the dice as you have nothing to lose.

Civilization, and the societal order that comes with it, has enabled us to pause and do fabulous things.  Arts, sciences, and all manner of innovations.  If you are busy foraging, you will never make time to compose a symphony.  But most of us aren't spending our energy just surviving today.

It's easy to listen to Freakonomics and feel smug, but also remember that our standard of living, peace and stability are a fairly new thing in human history.

I think the medical and scientific communities would further they respective causes with some additional empathy of "regular people".

As a software engineer, I know from experience most customers don't care how it works, or the cool algorithm we came up with.  It "just needs to work".  It's really a rare and special person who can appreciate the internal engineering and design of things.

Offline surfivor

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 I have heard vaccines are not really tested adequately for safety or the tests are not done the right way or are the tests are done by those same companies selling the vaccines and are not independent.

 There is also a sort of secret national vaccine injury program that has paid out something like 4 billion for people harmed by vaccines.

 There are also millions (I guess it's millions but whatever the number) of parents who are convinced their children where harmed by vaccines based on the claim that the kid was fine before the vaccination and then they where not. You can hear such claims from various people played on podcasts etc. These people are quite adamant

 I don't see a case for forced vaccinations, that to me seems a bit scary and I am glad Rand Paul is against it

« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 08:05:36 PM by surfivor »

Offline David in MN

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Smurf- there is actually a book about this called Thinking, Fast and Slow. Basically your brain has been built to jump from the lion, not tax optimize your IRA.

So Kahneman (I think) advocates slowing the response. The more time and thought you can dedicate to analyzing a problem the better you do. And one really needs to be careful consuming information because the vast majority of news sources are attempting to make us think fast. I hate to bash my people but statisticians are among the worst. I would not trust any chart or graph I see without at least checking the source data.

Offline Mr. Bill

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Can measles make you healthier and fight cancer?

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...But what if you survive measles complication free? Is your immune system stronger? The answer turns out to be the exact opposite. In every country, measles vaccines are associated with decrease risk of death from all disease... A team of scientists from four different institutions investigated this correlation and found that being infected with measles actually creates a sort of "immune amnesia" where the patient is more likely to be infected and die of other infectious disease over the next 2 to 3 years. ...

Here's a good article with more info on the "immune amnesia" effect and its consequences:

Science News, 5/21/19: Measles erases the immune system’s memory

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...Once inside, the virus is thought to target immune cells found in the mucus of the nose and throat, the tiny air sacs in the lungs or between the eyelids and cornea. ...

The virus quickly replicates inside the cells, then spreads to places packed with other immune cells — bone marrow, thymus, spleen, tonsils and lymph nodes. “The virus has an enormously strong predilection to infect cells of the immune system,” says Bert Rima, an infectious disease researcher at Queen’s University Belfast in Northern Ireland. .... Eventually, newly made viral particles move into the respiratory tract, where they can be coughed out to sicken more people. ...

“The virus preferentially infects cells in the immune system that carry the memory of previously experienced infections,” [Dutch virologist] de Swart says. Called memory B and T cells, these cellular protectors normally remember threats the body has already neutralized, allowing the immune system to spring into action quickly if those threats return. After a measles infection, the numbers of some types of these memory cells dropped, creating an immune amnesia...

The immune system might take months, or even years, to bounce back from this memory loss. Researchers including de Swart and Mina compared health records of U.K. children from 1990 to 2014. For up to five years after their bout of measles, children who had previously had the virus experienced more diagnosed infections than children who hadn’t. Children who'd had measles were 15 to 24 percent more likely to receive a prescription for an infection than children who never had measles...

Mina and colleagues found similar results for deaths from nonmeasles infections in children in England, Wales, the United States and Denmark, before and after the introduction of the measles vaccine. When measles was rampant, children were more likely to die from other infections. ...

Online FreeLancer

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Here's a good article with more info on the "immune amnesia" effect and its consequences:

Science News, 5/21/19: Measles erases the immune system’s memory

This is a fascinating aspect of the disease that hasn't been well understood until now.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 05:32:07 PM by FreeLancer »

Offline Morning Sunshine

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This is a fascinating aspect of the disease that hasn't been well understood until know.

that is very interesting.