WWV time signal stations on the chopping block

[FreeLancer]

Well, if WWVB does go away, at least I've finally got the Tecsun loop dialed in to cover the whole house now. 

Setting the tuning knob in the middle appears to give the best compromise between directionality and signal strength.  I managed to sync from 30m through 5 walls at 30 degrees off perpendicular to the broadside of the loop.  My G-Shock GWM5610-1 seems to be the most reliable receiver, beating out the clocks with their larger antennas, as well as my two more expensive watches.

[iam4liberty]

Well, if WWVB does go away, at least I've finally got the Tecsun loop dialed in to cover the whole house now. 

Setting the tuning knob in the middle appears to give the best compromise between directionality and signal strength.  I managed to sync from 30m through 5 walls at 30 degrees off perpendicular to the broadside of the loop.  My G-Shock GWM5610-1 seems to be the most reliable receiver, beating out the clocks with their larger antennas, as well as my two more expensive watches.

Impressive job! I am sure your experience will help others if the phase out comes.  And you now have backup if solar weather impacts ability to get wvvb signal.

I am toying with idea of mirroring your work but tying it to a gps reference.  If prices drop on these clocks I will put them throughout house and have inexpensive masterclock system.

Nice choice on watch too.  Extremely capable timepiece there.  Tough solar is the bomb.  My travel watch is a Casio PAG 80T.  Steven Harris wears a PAG 240.  And Nutnfancy is also big fan of the casios.  They are quickly becoming the ubiquitous prepper watch.

[FreeLancer]

I am toying with idea of mirroring your work but tying it to a gps reference.  If prices drop on these clocks I will put them throughout house and have inexpensive masterclock system.

Yeah, I think that would be cool.  If you hook up a GPS tied NTP server as the primary time source on a home network, will WiFi devices connected to that network synchronize to the LAN time source instead of of the WAN?

Nice choice on watch too.  Extremely capable timepiece there.  Tough solar is the bomb.  My travel watch is a Casio PAG 80T.  Steven Harris wears a PAG 240.  And Nutnfancy is also big fan of the casios.  They are quickly becoming the ubiquitous prepper watch.

There's a lot to like about Casio watches right now.  You can drop anywhere from $3k on a titanium MR-G with GPS hybrid sync all the way down to $13 on a Sport Analog "Dive" Watch




Speaking of that $13 dollar watch, I just pulled mine out, along with my other non-radio-sync, non-solar watches, at least the one's with functioning battery, to see how far off they are since I last set them in February 2017.

   Casio MRW200-1BV Analog $13:  4min 55sec slow

   Casio W800H-1AV Digital $12:  35sec fast

   Timex Analog early 1990's:  3min 10sec fast

   Suunto Vector early 2000's:  5sec slow, which is impressive.  But even more impressive was the fact the battery hadn't run out in 20 months.


Damn, I think performance per dollar that W800H is looking like a winner!

[FreeLancer]

I finally tracked down my first Tough Solar Multiband 6, now a decade old, and found it completely dead with hands pointed at midnight.  After half a day in the light it finally woke up but won't sync with either the loop or speakers.  It may be a power issue, as the battery indicator goes from H (high) to M (med) after each failed sync attempt.  A couple times it would go from R (receive) mode to W (synchronizing) but just couldn't complete the process.  Unfortunately these analog Casio MultiBands don't display signal strength during sync like the fully digital ones.  I'm not sure what the expected lifespan of these rechargeable batteries are, but being dead for 18 months can't be good for it.

[iam4liberty]

I'm not sure what the expected lifespan of these rechargeable batteries are, but being dead for 18 months can't be good for it.

They dont claim a date, but general thinking is 30+ years as long as it is kept charged.  If not, then they will deteriorate quickly after low power time, usually six to ten months.  I am afraid it is damaged and wont provide enough current for sync process.

[FreeLancer]

I bought my new watches because this one had developed a weird short where the back-light would come on for minutes at a time just from touching the metal case or twisting it on the wrist.  So it had some issues and I tipped it over the edge through neglect.  I thought it was in a place that would get some light, but I accidentally covered it with something.

[iam4liberty]

I bought my new watches because this one had developed a weird short where the back-light would come on for minutes at a time just from touching the metal case or twisting it on the wrist.  So it had some issues and I tipped it over the edge through neglect.  I thought it was in a place that would get some light, but I accidentally covered it with something.

Talked to a buddy who is a casio expert.  He says it may still be ok.  What happens is that when the casios fully discharge they return to a default setting.  Part of this default is switching the RF sync to the Japanese frequency only. He says manual should tell you how to change the "home city".  He also says that before doing this the watch will need to be in direct sunlight for 30 hours.  This will bring it back to level 1 charge as long as battery is not damaged beyond use. Otherwise it will require a new $25 battery.  The watch must be at level 1 or 2 to sync.

[FreeLancer]

You’re exactly right.

I read the manual right before I went to sleep last night and it stated that sync was fully functional at an M-level charge.  I then caught the part about losing the home city setting and reverting to TYO right before watch shutdown in critical low battery conditions.  When I get home tonight, I’ll try to sync it with the Android JJY app and the Tecsun loop before switching back to LAX.

[FreeLancer]

Well, I got some more data points on this time signal thing.




So I ran the JJYEmulator Android app (icon pictured above) via Chromebook cabled to the Tecsun loop and managed to sync the old dead G-Shock to TYO time, but only if the watch was within a foot of the loop.  Thinking it may have been a problem with the watch's power, although I did manage to keep the battery charge in the M to H range during these operations through use of an LED photon cannon, I decided to change my trustiest square G-Shock to TYO and had no better luck.  I should also mention that my app had an option for either a 40khz or 60khz signal and found that only 60 worked (40 sounds horrendous through speaker!).

So, before I changed both watches back to LAX, I figured I'd try the Clock Wave iPhone app set to transmit JJY to see if it worked better.  It didn't.  I don't know why.  When you play these 60khz signals through the speakers, they sound close enough in volume to the WWVB's at 60khz.  But the format is definitely different and I'm not sure why that would matter, but the bottom line is JJY isn't going to be the time signal to broadcast around the house with a Tecsun loop hooked up to a busted up iPhone.  The other weird thing is that Japan doesn't officially recognize DST on their home islands, but for some reason JJY broadcasts the DST codes, which meant one of my watches was off an hour from the other even though they just successfully synced up at the same time.  I quickly lost patience farting around with it, but it's something to do with DST set to Auto vs On or Off on the watches, but maybe the phone app, too. 

Bottom line.....JJY is a pain in the ass.

[FreeLancer]

Another weird thing....... 

The back from the dead G-Shock synced JJY in exactly 2 minutes the first time it was close enough to get the signal.  But after that, neither watch would sync to JJY or WWVB in less than 4 minutes.  I think that may be a pattern I've noticed with my other three watches, too.  It's like the more recent the last successful sync was, the longer it takes confirming the next sync, making a two minute sync very unlikely.  If you're off by a mile it's quick, but a split second difference takes 4+ minutes.

[iam4liberty]

Is Survival Tech Nord stalking us?  First he releases the battery bank tutorial right when we were discussing that.  And now he releases a gps time reference tutorial.  Synchronicity!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oWLjl0dFkY
Off Grid Time Source Raspberry Pi & Cheap U-Blox USB GPS

[FreeLancer]

It’s like a contagious disease that makes you spend money.

[Carl]

  We are good for ideas and to give guidance to the lost.

[iam4liberty]

May be coincidence but Casio, the largest seller by far of RF sychronized watches, just announced G-Shocks which synchronize to the NTP time references via bluetooth.

https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/15/casio-adds-modern-tech-to-the-classic-g-shock-watch/amp/
Casio adds modern tech to the classic G-Shock watch

The Bluetooth function is simple and worth a look. It gives owners an easy way to access settings. Instead of navigating through the menus on the watch, owners can use a smartphone app to sync the watch to the phone’s time, adjust settings and set alarms and reminders. It takes just one button press on the watch and for the owner to launch the app. The watch does not have to be connected through the phone’s Bluetooth menu; the app takes care of it all.
...
I found the experience a refreshing update. I don’t need a smartwatch all the time but there are advantages to connecting a watch to a phone. If this is a glimpse at the future of timekeeping, I’m all in

[iam4liberty]

Slight correction to above Casio technology. It will sync not only to NTP but wharever time reference the user uses sets for their phone.  So this could also be gps, cell network, or private reference like a private corporate reference (eg apple time network or one's  company or own source). 

[FreeLancer]

I think Casio has been selling Bluetooth on their higher end Ediface and Oceanus models, as well as top tier G Shocks, for several years.  A few are even triple sync capable, with GPS, MultiBand 6 and Bluetooth, but usually start at >$1000.  I was tempted to get one with this shutdown scare, but then figured I’d be better off buying a GPS disciplined NTP/PTP server for my home network, instead.

[FreeLancer]

I really like the retro 5600 G Shock form factor of that watch in the Tech Crunch article, I have two of Multiband6 models (one is a Japan only model), but I can’t find any Bluetooth models in the US market, and don’t really feel it’s worth paying the premium to get it from Japan.  The only Bluetooth Casios here are blinged out garish monsters starting at $400.

[scoop]

I'd worry about WWV time going away, but I don't have the time...

[iam4liberty]

I really like the retro 5600 G Shock form factor of that watch in the Tech Crunch article, I have two of Multiband6 models (one is a Japan only model), but I can’t find any Bluetooth models in the US market, and don’t really feel it’s worth paying the premium to get it from Japan.  The only Bluetooth Casios here are blinged out garish monsters starting at $400.

The "smartwatch" versions are pricy but these newer "enhanced feature" bluetooth casios are much less.  One that is interesting from a preppers viewpont is GSquad.  It includes a step counter (great for estimating distance traveled) and is 200 meter waterproof.

https://www.g-central.com/g-shock-g-squad-gba-800-with-step-tracker-and-bluetooth/

It is $120-$130 depending on shop https://www.rei.com/product/135547/casio-g-shock-step-tracking-fitness-watch.

That is a ton of features for the price: GBA-800
PDFhttps://casio.t-and-i.co.il › 2018/02 › GB...

[FreeLancer]

Dang it, I was all excited about that GSquad, until I realized it wasn't Tough Solar and only has a 2 yr battery life.  That's a deal breaker for me.  I learned my lesson with my Suunto, no more battery hogs.

Apparently Casio has released a cheaper resin version of the 5600 (I'm not a big fan of the all metal retro squares, anyways) with Tough Solar, MultiBand, and Bluetooth, the GW-B5600. 



It's basically exactly what I've got now (which sells now for as little as $90) with the added Bluetooth connectivity, but it looks like it's not coming to the US yet and that's putting the price around $250.

I guess the good news is that Casio's got plenty of viable options to sell us if WWVB goes bye bye.

[Carl]

 I often find that my FOSSIL watch is out of sync with my Wilson sun dial and it appears to be no big deal.

[Redman]

I often find that my FOSSIL watch is out of sync with my Wilson sun dial and it appears to be no big deal.

Yeah my FOSSIL watch and my Seiko solar watch are often out of sync with this PC and all three are out of sync with the TV stations. Who cares? My one battery operated Dakota grandfather clock is always accurate even though it is only in sync with itself and the TV stations. Let's see hmm, microwave clock is never in sync with anything, it's never set and the thing is unplugged when not actually in use. And the clock on the oven is almost in sync with the Dakota but again the timer is the only thing that really matters but it's difficult to get to the plug. I don't even have a sundial.

When you're retired you really aren't too concerned about what time it is. 

[Carl]

Yeah my FOSSIL watch and my Seiko solar watch are often out of sync with this PC and all three are out of sync with the TV stations. Who cares? My one battery operated Dakota grandfather clock is always accurate even though it is only in sync with itself and the TV stations. Let's see hmm, microwave clock is never in sync with anything, it's never set and the thing is unplugged when not actually in use. And the clock on the oven is almost in sync with the Dakota but again the timer is the only thing that really matters but it's difficult to get to the plug. I don't even have a sundial.

When you're retired you really aren't too concerned about what time it is. 

Or even what day it is....

[Redman]

4-10 ? Wait that's not right 10-4? No it's 10-16. Domestic trouble or pick up prisoner at or reply.

[FreeLancer]

As feared, this thread took me down the rabbit-hole of time measurement, again, and I couldn't resist getting a bare-bones grandmaster clock for my network.  Haven't figured out the PTP part, yet, but NTP wasn't too bad and I'm able to lock 9-12 GPS satellites inside the house. 

[Bradbn4]

As feared, this thread took me down the rabbit-hole of time measurement, again, and I couldn't resist getting a bare-bones grandmaster clock for my network.  Haven't figured out the PTP part, yet, but NTP wasn't too bad and I'm able to lock 9-12 GPS satellites inside the house.

Cool hardware, but too expensive for what it is; however, when comparing prices for other commercial rack mounted solutions it works well.

I have seen raspberry Pi Stratus 2 solutions with a GPS hardware for under $200 dollars.  That price is still too high in my book.  I have worked with both IRIG A/B time sources which can be both expensive and hard to work with older hardware.

https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Raspberry-Pi-NTP.html

The solution set I have at home does require soldering.



 

[FreeLancer]

Cool hardware, but too expensive for what it is; however, when comparing prices for other commercial rack mounted solutions it works well.

I have seen raspberry Pi Stratus 2 solutions with a GPS hardware for under $200 dollars.  That price is still too high in my book.  I have worked with both IRIG A/B time sources which can be both expensive and hard to work with older hardware.

https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Raspberry-Pi-NTP.html

The solution set I have at home does require soldering.

Can't really disagree with any of that, like I said, it's a rabbit-hole...... 

I'd still like to try and build my own.  This TM2000A's PTP (and NTP holdover) functionality relies on an OCXO module rated at 20ppb accuracy, and I think that's up to 4 orders of magnitude off what's possible with that technology.  Not sure what the cost of a better OCXO would be, or how easy it is to find something that plugs into a Raspbery Pi?

Here's an accuracy comparison of the TM1000 vs TM2000 vs a real Grand Master Clock from Microsemi:  https://www.timemachinescorp.com/wp-content/uploads/TMTimeServerAccuracyRevB.pdf

[Alan Georges]

Can't believe the legs on this thread and the weird corners into tech it's taken: Buy your own time reference.  Build your own time reference.  DIY WWVB Part 15 broadcasts.  There's even a sundial thread, which may or may not be a spin-off.   

[armymars]

OT  I love this place!

[iam4liberty]

Can't believe the legs on this thread and the weird corners into tech it's taken: Buy your own time reference.  Build your own time reference.  DIY WWVB Part 15 broadcasts.  There's even a sundial thread, which may or may not be a spin-off.

The web of thoughts is pretty cool. TSP forum is awesome as almost every solution thread runs from the primitive to the ultra high tech and from the ultra-economical to high value ratio to luxury.  One just needs to ask and a suitable option seems to materialize.

The sundial thread was origionally an offshoot of the ephemeris thread which was an offshoot of a tinfoil hat thread on flat earth!  But using the sun as a time reference is just as valid an approach as gps satelites.  Perfect example of breadth of solutions!

Which reminds me, i got an email asking about difference between navigation ephemeris and astrology emphemeris so i need to update that thread too.  Zodiac, here we come...