The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.

[The Professor]

Awhile back I wrote an article here making a recommendation that people may want to extend themselves a bit and purchase a firearm.  We have been given about a two-year grace period where no one is panicking about the availability of firearms or ammo due to a political issue.

That may be about to change.

In just over a month, we are going to have one of the most important political voting situations we've ever faced.  I'm not supporting one side or another in this post, but. . .consider what would happen if the liberals take Congress.  Remember what happened during Obama's first and second elections.  The Masses believed a political attack on the 2nd Amendment would soon follow, though no such attack really did.

This time, the liberals, if they take a majority of the Congress, will believe they have a Mandate From the Masses.  David Hogg and his like will be all over the TV demanding action and threatening "real change."

Prices will soon rise and stocks will begin to deplete.  While ammo prices may fluctuate, mainly so they can empty their warehouses, Modern Sporting Rifles will quickly disappear and prices will rise.  Manufacturers, having been bitten twice, are hesitant to flood the market with either lowers or complete rifles, again.  Consider how many manufacturers have fallen by the wayside in the past ten years.

Just take it as some friendly advice, you may want to make your final purchases and head towards the checkouts in the next month or so.

Or, it may not happen and then we have until the Dems start trotting out their next Presidential Candidates and launching their attacks on the President.

The Professor

[Alan Georges]

^^^ this.  And, right now there are bargains out there.  Even if all goes well legislatively, is unlikely that prices will ever be lower.  Now is a good time to stock up.

[Carl]

  How many rifles and how much ammo should I have?

[The Professor]

  How many rifles and how much ammo should I have?

All of them.

And more.

The Professor

[iam4liberty]

All of them.

And more.

The Professor

I think Carl is ready to move towards artillery. 

[Carl]

  I can build what I can't buy.

[mountainmoma]

Ok, maybe I should buy a modern sprting rifle, htey are light weight, adjustable, etc.... but maybe expensive ? Are there still components to put together ?  ANd, even if I do or dont buy a new one, I have some practice ammo, but what would be a good actual round for the mini-14, not just for practice ? And, how many rounds should one have...... My house is only so big.....

[David in MN]

I'll start by saying I personally have over 1000 rounds of each 5.56, .308, 9mm, .45 ACP, .38 Special, and well north of 5k of 12 gauge. I believe in buying and storing ammo. Oh forgot 20k of .22.

The market is telling us this is a buyer's opportunity. I don't know about legal stuff and how laws might change but with Remington filing for bankruptcy you know the market is tight and margins suck. Basically it's the best deal you'll get.

For a long time I worked a job that had early Fridays in the summer and my wife didn't. I would swing by Fleet Farm and buy a brick of .22 and something else, mow the lawn, shower, and have Champagne on ice when she got home at 5. A couple years of that even when I shot a lot built up quite the stock. That was when 500 .22 and 20 5.56 ran me $20.

If you can work a weekly small ammo purchase you will not regret it. My last walk through Fleet Farm 12 gauge was on a deep sale. $5 a box. $50 would buy 250 rounds of either #8, #7.5, or #6. I wouldn't taunt a guy with 250 rounds of upland game load. I like #4 Buck but the sales are good.

[surfivor]

I am thinking of voting for Republicans. I have never done that before but rather in the past I abstained from voting. I will have to lie and tell my mother I didn’t vote. This shows you that telling the truth is not always necessary and sometimes white lies are perfectly fine

[mountainmoma]

I'll start by saying I personally have over 1000 rounds of each 5.56, .308, 9mm, .45 ACP, .38 Special, and well north of 5k of 12 gauge. I believe in buying and storing ammo. Oh forgot 20k of .22.

The market is telling us this is a buyer's opportunity. I don't know about legal stuff and how laws might change but with Remington filing for bankruptcy you know the market is tight and margins suck. Basically it's the best deal you'll get.

For a long time I worked a job that had early Fridays in the summer and my wife didn't. I would swing by Fleet Farm and buy a brick of .22 and something else, mow the lawn, shower, and have Champagne on ice when she got home at 5. A couple years of that even when I shot a lot built up quite the stock. That was when 500 .22 and 20 5.56 ran me $20.

If you can work a weekly small ammo purchase you will not regret it. My last walk through Fleet Farm 12 gauge was on a deep sale. $5 a box. $50 would buy 250 rounds of either #8, #7.5, or #6. I wouldn't taunt a guy with 250 rounds of upland game load. I like #4 Buck but the sales are good.

There are no decent stores close by ( big 5 may have  few boxes of this and that, dont count on what you may want, and that is a 35 minute drive), so for me, it has to be more at a time, less often, and usually mail order, which, yes, we can do, but only thru a licensed ammo seller, and some people have stepped up and started small at home businesses fully licensed by the state to do so..... probably time to order before they add the costs of background checks

[iam4liberty]

Ok, maybe I should buy a modern sprting rifle, htey are light weight, adjustable, etc.... but maybe expensive ? Are there still components to put together ?  ANd, even if I do or dont buy a new one, I have some practice ammo, but what would be a good actual round for the mini-14, not just for practice ? And, how many rounds should one have...... My house is only so big.....

It depends on the age of the mini-14.  The twist rate changed from 1 in 10" (1975 to early 1989) to 1 in 7" (1989 to mid 1994) to 1 in 9" (1994 to present).  Assuming 1 in 9" for general purposes you will most likely want a round with a 55 grain bullet in a reloadable brass case. In NATO military ammo the M193 cartridge from a quality manufacturer is a good choice.  The PMC Bronze 223 Remington in 55 grain is also a good budget friendly choice.  It will also shoot the variety of game specific 223 rounds like the Remington Hog Hammer.  But that type of specialty round should be viewd as auxilary to general purpose.

Regarding quantity, if it fits your budget, for general purposes purchase full cases which are 1000 rounds or so depending on packaging.  If you plan on storing, rounds that come in battle packs are nice and convenient.

[LvsChant]

BulkAmmo.com has been a good choice for us in the past... Thanks for posting this reminder... I think we may need to stock up a bit more.

22LR is only $199/5000 rds, so about the same as David mentioned a few years back...

[bcksknr]

    Other than for trade or barter, I don't see the need for thousands of rounds of ammunition. Self-defense is another matter. Are you really going to go through a thousand rounds of ammo to hold off the intruder at the door? Not that carefully chosen firearms of different capabilities and a reasonable amount of ammunition for each doesn't make sense for the prepared individual. Of course it does. While an important part of any preparation planning, the cost of many firearms and huge amounts of ammunition should be behind many other preparations on the list.
     Are you in debt; credit card or mortgage? Do you have outstanding loans? Do you have a well maintained home and vehicle? Have you an adequate supply of food, medicine, household supplies? Do you have clothing and "outdoor" gear suitable for your climate. Do you have realistic emergency bags, with essential shelter, fire, water, first aid, foods and "camping" items for yourself and everyone else in your family; in case you have to leave your home? Have you made a portable folder with all of your important documents and contact lists? If you have children, have you explained to them what to do during possible emergencies. Have you really gained and shared enough knowledge to survive?
     We all know the drill. There is a place for firearms and ammunition in all of this, but I don't think its at the top of the list. Don't forget about training to use those firearms in a safe and effective manner, for every member of the family. If you think all you need to survive a breakdown of society is a gun, because you are going to shoot someone more prepared and take what they have, remember, they will shoot back. I understand that firearms will be essential for self defense and perhaps food gathering, but I wouldn't "short change" other essential supplies. Of course, if you have no firearms or ammunition and you really believe that they will be denied to you in the near future, then now might be a prudent time to reasonably buy a gun and the supplies to "keep it going". All things in moderation. [size=78%]   [/size]
 

     

[Alan Georges]

    Other than for trade or barter, I don't see the need for thousands of rounds of ammunition. Self-defense is another matter. Are you really going to go through a thousand rounds of ammo to hold off the intruder at the door?

The real reason for having thousands of rounds on hand is for training.  Running through 500 rounds in a day's class isn't unusual.  It's way better to buy it while it's cheap and available, now, than to dawdle and get caught short in an expensive ammo drought.

[The Professor]

The real reason for having thousands of rounds on hand is for training.  Running through 500 rounds in a day's class isn't unusual.  It's way better to buy it while it's cheap and available, now, than to dawdle and get caught short in an expensive ammo drought.

This. . . .and other reasons.

I know it is  no longer de rigueur to talk of TEOTWAWKI scenarioes or MAJOR interruptions.  But there still lies the (however remote) possibility of a truly long-term disaster striking. 

Ammunition is not necessarily just for mowing down your errant neighbors or the spikey-haired mutant zombies cresting the hill behind your retreat.

There are many situations that may make it wise to purchase ammo and weapons while the prices are still low.  Consider a major shift in politics.  We know that liberals desperately want to enact a much more definitive "assault weapons" ban.  Consider what happened the last time (1994) this happened.  Before, I could buy Colt (top quality) AR's for $560 for an HBAR.  The day after Clinton signed the bill?  Yeah, you couldn't even touch one for $3,000.

When Obama got elected, especially the second time. . . guns, magazines and ammo skyrocketed in price.  Certain calibers of ammunition were impossible to find.  Sure, you could order them. . .and you'd have to wait a year to get that order in.  In fact, everything was so difficult to find that many dealers (and suppliers) went out of business for lack of product to sell.  Sure, many fly-by-night companies popped up and everyone with a CAM started turning out AR lowers, for example.  You paid dearly for even them.

It's usually at this point someone politely coughs and mumble "I reload" under their breath.  Yeah, so do I.  A quick review of the articles posted here on TSP Forum will remind you that primers, powder, virgin brass and bullets. . .especially by easily recognized manufacturers were all as easy to find as hen's teeth.

That was the year that my wife and I stopped our competitive shooting in IPSC, 3-gun and IDPA matches all together.  We shot at least two matches a month and needed a MINIMUM of 100 rounds for most of the matches.  Math tells us we needed at least 400 rounds a month when ammo was almosts impossible to find.  Plus, the political environment experienced at the time had us concerned that a lame-duck liberal president might choose to advance an anti-gun agenda.    If I couldn't buy it and I couldn't reload it. . .every round fired downrange was a round I wouldn't have.

I get it, I really do.  It has become gauche to talk about guns and survival.  Anymore, if you mention Bug-Out Bags, Retreats or Firearms, all the Cool Survival Kids look at you like a Frenchman who just heard you pronounce the silent "t" in escargot.

And may all that is Holy protect you if you mention camouflage or say something against the "gray man" (mis?)conception. . .but, I'm just pointing out a situation and opportunity on which the window is closing. . .I'm neither standing there pushing you out, nor am I deriding anyone who doesn't.

We are simply approaching a confluence of potential situations, each of which may lead to higher prices and unavailability of certain products.  Now, I'll  hush up, put on my most excellent set of BDU's, get my Pit Yorkie and go patrol the compound on my quad-runner.

The Professor

[Bradbn4]

Reloading is fine; a very good hobby, and a way for long distance target shooters to wring out the very last oz of perfection.

But what I have found over the last handful of years it is hard to find the material for reloading when anything go's bump in the market place.

The stock of 22lr ammo has for the most part stabilized and I can more often than not find a good supply all around Colorado.   So it is a good time to stock up on that just because you can.

I remember a 4+ years back I could have received 4x return on selling bricks of 22lr.  A friend of mine could not find any ammo for his 22lr so he ended up buying a different rifle (22-250) so he could control varmints on his land and have something to plink with.  I tossed him about 1/2 brick of cheap ammo I had that would work, but it was a bit under powered for even my Ruger 10/22 to work with. 

I would like to say the Professor is 100% wrong, but you don't fix your roof when it is raining cats and dogs, you fix it when the weather is good.  And right now the weather is about as good as it can get.

[David in MN]

I think different. I buy ammo I'm going to use. I have ammo that I bought a decade ago (it doesn't go bad) that I am working through now. When things got tight under Obama (I'm too young for Clinton) I was giving out bricks of .22s to guys crying and thanking me.

Ask yourself... Could a new president mandate higher qualification for the FBI/CIA/NSA/military? If I doubled the requirement of ammo to the government would civilian prices rise?

I have 100% no evidence and I certainly know no one in the industry (not like I live across the river from Federal and live among the employees) but I fully believe the ammo shortages were because the feds bought it all up. After losing in the courts the grabbers went after ammo. Believe it or not the target of your guns is the ammo. Ask what doubling the price of 9mm does to your IDPA club. Amazingly in the late 00s you could get every hunting round but 9mm, .45, 5.56, and 7.62 went away. And none so bad as .22.

If I was in the government and I wanted to ban your guns I would try to make ammo hard to find. Not the one shot one kill expensive ammo. I'd target the ammo for beginners. I'd go after your "day at the range" ammo. And how many kids never got that first .22?

Again, I have no idea what I'm talking about and this is random speculation. I've certainly never spoken to an ammo employee and heard "we can't even stock .22 in the company store and we aren't sure where it's going but you won't see it for retail".

Having enough ammo for a few seasons just makes sense. And my bolt .22 has only ever gotten one load. So I'm dedicated to giving it just that load. I've (roughly) settled on a medium game load for my .308 but I have a rough idea where all common loads land. Medium game might hit well out to 400 yards but I know the holdover for a heavier bullet that will hit farther.

Also worth mentioning... Get a gun in a goofy caliber. Ammo shortages hit common stuff but a weirdo still sits on the shelves.

[Alan Georges]

This. . . .and other reasons.

Yep, and thanks for listing them.  We've had a few ammo droughts, true, but we have to be ready for a decade-long ammo dessert.

Also worth mentioning... Get a gun in a goofy caliber. Ammo shortages hit common stuff but a weirdo still sits on the shelves.

Huh, yeah, that's an interesting idea.  I wonder if 6.8 SPC is sufficiently goofy yet?  Any other suggestions?

Along the same lines, maybe a dirt-common civilian-only caliber – say something like a 30-30.  "It's just a moderate-powered deer rifle.  Nothing to see here folks, move along."

[iam4liberty]

Two other points. 

One is quality.  Buying in bulk during times of surplus allows one to buy better quality for the same or less.  I just laid in a 5000 round case of CCI Mini Mag for 5 cents a round. Just two years ago less reliable 22 was selling for 8 cents a round.  CCI Mini Mag during this time disappeared.  So why wait and pay more for worse?

The second is confidence, which I think David touched on.  i would never trust our lives to any firearm I havent put at least several hundred rounds of the specific ammo through.  Switching ammo is inserting an unknown variable which can affect reliability.  And with rifles it also directly impacts accuracy; both in terms of group size and zero.  And this can even happen between lots of a given ammo. 

For these reasons we adopted the best practice of finding an ammo that runs well {reliable and accurate) for each primary firearm and stack it deep.  Another plus is that it has appreciated well.  For example, the 4 cents high quality surplus 8mm mauser rounds we bought 15 years ago are now worth 40+ cents.  So there is little downside to buying ammo now.

[bcksknr]

     I'm just an average shooter. I don't shoot competitively; I don't go through hundreds of rounds a month. With the exception of .22's, I don't buy commercial ammunition. I handload everything I shoot and have done so for years. Each rifle or pistol has one weight and brand bullet and and one type primer and one powder and load. I feel I practice enough (five minutes from a private range) to be competent in what I might want to do. Am I a high speed pistolero? No. Can I make a thousand yard shot? Not with with my long guns. I don't particularly enjoy punching holes in paper targets with a brick of .22's (our range prohibits tin can, milk jug or exploding target plinking, not that I would want to).
     Because I handload more than I shoot, I've amassed a fair quantity of ammunition for all my firearms. I'm a gun hunter and good at it. I have a concealed carry license and earned it through a quality training program, so I practice more with my regular carry gun. I'm not as "good" as I should be, but then who is? I also have a life and responsibilities outside of the world of firearms. I guess I can "talk smart" because I have piled up thousands of rounds of ammunition. Before that happened (and while it was happening) I made sure that I had all of the bases of survivalism covered. Will I ever live long enough to shoot it all? Probably not.
     What I see is that "panic" buying produces it's own "shortages". I remember a few years back when the rumor was that toilet paper was going to be in short supply. whether it was true or not, lots of folks proceeded to clear off the store shelves. I do believe that the past and present ammunition shortages, for what ever reason, have been real. However, I think some of the shortages were caused in part by "panic" or opportunistic buying. At gun shows, I've heard more than once that ammunition was bought in quantity in hopes of making a "killing" if the prices went up. The same with various models of firearms and magazines (over buying for a future profit has even been advocated in this Forum). My opinion, for what it's worth is that whenever a "Liberal" gets elected, there is a mad rush to buy because "their going to take our guns and ammunition away". The prices rise; the supply dwindles. We have basically done it to ourselves.
     Anyway, we all have our own take on the need for "adequate" amounts of ammunition and firearms, for whatever purpose. I fully understand the concerns of those who do shoot hundreds of rounds a month. If shortages do occur, for whatever reason, a basement full of ammunition, purchased in advanced, is important for you. My take is that I want enough for self defense and food gathering (maybe barter). Because I enjoy reloading, I also realize that I have way more than those needs require. My personal philosophy is "what good was a thousand rounds of ammo, if the guy who shoots you dead only has ten".   

[fritz_monroe]

I'll admit that I jumped on the bandwagon when Obama was elected.  I bought my first ever handgun.  I got caught up in the excitement about he was going to ban just about everything.

I am thinking of voting for Republicans. I have never done that before but rather in the past I abstained from voting. I will have to lie and tell my mother I didn’t vote. This shows you that telling the truth is not always necessary and sometimes white lies are perfectly fine

I stopped voting for lesser of 2 evils about 20 years ago.  The lesser of 2 evils is still evil.  I started voting my conscience.  I vote for the person I want to win.  If I do not feel a strong about supporting a candidate, I vote against the incumbent.

[Stwood]

I quit buying a couple years ago. I bought what ammo I use.

I found Midway to be the best prices on rifle ammo, and Academy the best prices on shotgun ammo, especially .410

[FreeLancer]

The window for ammo pretty much already closed for me, out here in California, ten months ago.  2017 was the last year I could get ammunition shipped direct to my address, so I was motivated to seriously overextended myself all year long, right up to the bitter end. 

I was going to start buying reloading components this year, as those items can still be legally purchased and shipped direct to CA addresses, but have thus far spent the money on additional weapons, instead.

Even with all the draconian legislation of late, weapon prices and selection remain extremely favorable out here.  Never underestimate the manufacturer's ability to figure out ways to keep selling to people in California, as there are plenty of AR's (legally sold without bullet buttons for the time being) to be had at fair prices out here.

[mountainmoma]

Even with all the draconian legislation of late, weapon prices and selection remain extremely favorable out here.  Never underestimate the manufacturer's ability to figure out ways to keep selling to people in California, as there are plenty of AR's (legally sold without bullet buttons for the time being) to be had at fair prices out here.

what CA sporting rifles do you recommend ?

[FreeLancer]

what CA sporting rifles do you recommend ?

Assuming you're referring to something in the 223/5/56 department.....

The best value neutered AR for us is probably the Smith & Wesson M&P15.  I have one, mostly just to have one, because the lack of a functional pistol grip sucks when trying to operate the damn thing.  I figure if SHTF I may have to do whatever it takes to make it function as designed, but best to have it on hand before then.

I also have a Kel-Tec SU16CA, which is more fun to shoot California legal.  It's about the same cost as the above and takes AR mags, but lighter and handier.  For the hell of it, I also bought a Troy pump action AR, so I'd have something to shoot all my ammo if semiauto gets banned at some point.  It's handy, accurate, and allows the use of the AR pistol grip and controls, but almost twice as expensive.  Both of these weapons have a folding stock, so they can be stored more inconspicuously.



However, most of my weapon investment goes into M1A rifles.  They're heavy and expensive, but in a comforting kind of way......

[mountainmoma]

Assuming you're referring to something in the 223/5/56 department.....

The best value neutered AR for us is probably the Smith & Wesson M&P15.  I have one, mostly just to have one, because the lack of a functional pistol grip sucks when trying to operate the damn thing.  I figure if SHTF I may have to do whatever it takes to make it function as designed, but best to have it on hand before then.

I also have a Kel-Tec SU16CA, which is more fun to shoot California legal.  It's about the same cost as the above and takes AR mags, but lighter and handier.  For the hell of it, I also bought a Troy pump action AR, so I'd have something to shoot all my ammo if semiauto gets banned at some point.  It's handy, accurate, and allows the use of the AR pistol grip and controls, but almost twice as expensive.  Both of these weapons have a folding stock, so they can be stored more inconspicuously.



However, most of my weapon investment goes into M1A rifles.  They're heavy and expensive, but in a comforting kind of way......

Yeah, I would love an M1A, but they are heavy....

SO, I just went and looked up the kel-tec, so it looks like a light weight version of a mini-14 ? I thought the whole point of these was light weight plus an adjustable stock for us short people ?   -- oh, I see, I looked at another site.  It folds and is so light weight with the folding it is easy to carry in a non-rifle bag....

[FreeLancer]

If you can get past it's looks, there's a lot to like about those SU16's.  Very utilitarian little rifle.

[armymars]

I have a Kel-Tec and like it. Right out of the box it shot about 2"/100 yrds. Just be careful not to loose the pin when you fold it up.

[mountainmoma]

I have a Kel-Tec and like it. Right out of the box it shot about 2"/100 yrds. Just be careful not to loose the pin when you fold it up.

$770 plus 10% tax plus background check fees, etc... looking at right under $900.   I was hoping for affordable....  Maybe I should get more ammo for my other rifle and do some arm workouts -- just carry it around the house until it gets easy, listen to a TSP podcast while holding it in a standing shooting position, 2 minute reps and work up..... But I do like that this one and the pump action fold for discrete transport

[David in MN]

I once ran into a guy who was a big time devotee of the Mini 14. As in he had several at our club. He was nice enough to letme try one. They work great but in his words "if you want them to deliver on accuracy exxpect a little aftermarket work." It shot fine but I already have an AR so I doubt I'm in the market.

Every Kel Tec I have ever shot has felt clunky and flimsy. I know guys who love them so it's just the opinion of some idiot on the internet but they're not my cup of tea.

Finding a non-AR sporting rifle is tough. Most of us choose the AR because it has great  ergonomics. But you get a lot more because it's so popular. The unfair advantage is that we are awash in aftermarket and customizable components.

If you want something light my top choice of a Springfield M1 is out. I know Saiga makes a CA version of the AK74. There are options.