Author Topic: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years  (Read 777 times)

Offline Mr. Bill

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Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« on: March 08, 2019, 08:13:06 PM »
CDC Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 3/8/19: Notes from the Field: Tetanus in an Unvaccinated Child — Oregon, 2017

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...In 2017, a boy aged 6 years who had received no immunizations sustained a forehead laceration while playing outdoors on a farm; the wound was cleaned and sutured at home. Six days later, he had episodes of crying, jaw clenching, and involuntary upper extremity muscle spasms, followed by arching of the neck and back (opisthotonus) and generalized spasticity. Later that day, at the onset of breathing difficulty, the parents contacted emergency medical services, who air-transported him directly to a tertiary pediatric medical center. The boy subsequently received a diagnosis of tetanus and required approximately 8 weeks of inpatient care, followed by rehabilitation care, before he was able to resume normal activities. ...

The boy required 57 days of inpatient acute care, including 47 days in the intensive care unit. The inpatient charges totaled $811,929 (excluding air transportation, inpatient rehabilitation, and ambulatory follow-up costs). One month after inpatient rehabilitation, he returned to all normal activities, including running and bicycling. Despite extensive review of the risks and benefits of tetanus vaccination by physicians, the family declined the second dose of DTaP and any other recommended immunizations. ...


Mayo Clinic: Tetanus

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Tetanus is a serious disease caused by a bacterial toxin that affects your nervous system, leading to painful muscle contractions, particularly of your jaw and neck muscles. Tetanus can interfere with your ability to breathe and can threaten your life. Tetanus is commonly known as "lockjaw." ...

Tetanus is caused by a toxin made by spores of bacteria, Clostridium tetani, found in soil, dust and animal feces. When the spores enter a deep flesh wound, they grow into bacteria that can produce a powerful toxin, tetanospasmin. The toxin impairs the nerves that control your muscles (motor neurons). ...

Once tetanus toxin has bonded to your nerve endings it is impossible to remove. Complete recovery from a tetanus infection requires new nerve endings to grow, which can take up to several months. ...

You can easily prevent tetanus by being vaccinated. ...


CDC: Tetanus: Surveillance

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Tetanus became nationally reportable in 1947. Reported tetanus cases have declined more than 95%, and deaths from tetanus have declined more than 99% in the United States since 1947.

Since 1947, the number of tetanus cases reported each year, which already had decreased greatly since 1900, continued to decline (see figure below). This decline was in part because of continued use of tetanus antitoxin for wound management and introduction of tetanus vaccines in the 1930s and 1940s. ...


Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2019, 08:30:45 PM »
Wonder how the family scrounged up the million bucks to save their kid?

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2019, 10:18:55 PM »
This is what happens when panics occur and suck resources from things which can make a difference.

Have there been babies dying from measles in Vacouver WA lately?  According to Washington state records there have been no reported babies with measles in 2019.

The reason for tetanus is vaccination rate is in low 60s vs 95% like measles.  There are dozens of deaths per year from tetanus.  Moving measles from 95% to 96% will do nothing but moving tetanus from 65% to 90% would at least have an impact.  In fact, no exemption mandatory measles vaccinations will hurt people.

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2019, 10:34:24 PM »
I was hoping not to go political in this thread.

I posted because tetanus immunization is prepping, on a personal level.  We're not worried about herd immunity or contagion.  We're just protecting ourselves and our kids from a horrible preventable disease that can attack via common everyday accidents.

I think the rarity of tetanus may be encouraging people to skip immunization.  Oregon, first case in over 30 years, so nobody "catches" tetanus anymore, so why should I worry?  Except that's not how it works.  Its like looking at the decrease in auto accident deaths since people started wearing seatbelts, and deciding that means you don't need to wear a seatbelt anymore.

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2019, 12:35:32 AM »
This is the classic opisthotonic posture in tetanus, produced by severe muscle spasm of the spine.


Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2019, 08:20:04 AM »
No politics, just observation.  Avoiding panic is one of the most important prepping skills to develop.

Like any other treatment, people considuring tetanus shots should be aware of and monitor for side effects if received.  Tetanus is one of the safer vaccinations but there is still danger of severe reactions and certain people shouldnt receive it

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323784.php

Serious side effects
Below are some more severe side effects that can result from the tetanus shot and may need medical attention.

Swelling and severe pain, redness, or bleeding
In rare cases, swelling, redness, and severe pain may occur after the injection. The skin may break and bleed as a response to the vaccine. This occurs around the injection site and requires medical attention.

Severe allergic reaction
There is also a rare possibility of a person having a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine. The CDC estimate that this form of reaction happens in less than one in every 1 million cases.

Symptoms of an allergic reaction include:

difficulty breathing or swallowing
itchy throat, feet, or hands
hives
swelling in the face, eyes, or airways
sudden severe fatigue
rapid heartbeat

The reaction would start to happen between a few minutes to a few hours after receiving the injection, and it requires immediate medical attention.

Who should avoid tetanus shots?
Anyone who has had severe pain after a previous tetanus vaccine should discuss their options with a doctor.
Some people should avoid the tetanus shot. Anyone who has ever had a severe allergic reaction to tetanus vaccines in the past should avoid having the tetanus shot again.

Most people get a tetanus shot as a child, and so it is helpful if people are aware of any reactions they had when they were young.

Anyone with experiences of serious complications from a childhood dose of the tetanus shot, such as seizures or a coma, should avoid the tetanus shot in the future.

People with certain conditions may also want to be wary when looking to get a tetanus shot and should talk to their doctor to discuss their options.

People should be cautious if they have ever had:

severe pain or swelling from a tetanus vaccine
seizures
nervous system conditions
Guillain Barre syndrome where the immune system attacks nerve cells
Some tetanus vaccines may pose a risk to the health of people with any of these concerns. Doctors can advise them on how they should take care to avoid the diseases a vaccine would protect against.

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2019, 01:57:39 PM »
It's all relative.  Panic is a loaded term, one man's prudent concerns are viewed by another as irrational.  Most outsiders suddenly thrust into this forum would not view our prepping efforts as being driven by prudent concerns. 

Offline surfivor

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2019, 03:41:01 PM »


I have not heard anything to make me think tetanus shots are bad and it seems like a vaccination that has been around for a long time though only one case doesn’t seem to mean a whole lot on the surface

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2019, 04:04:44 PM »
Most families, even if they get no other vaccines, vaccinate their child for tetnus.  That has been my observation being part of these social groups.  The one thing that keeps some of them from getting it is that some doctors do not carry it by itself and the family may not want the pertussis vaccine.   19 years ago our Gp could and did get the Dt as that was available as booster for adults and my youngest was able to get vaccinated for diptheria/tetnus, not that we anted the diptheria but he could not get tetnus without it.  That likely kept other families from getting it,  the fact that it wasnt available as a stand alone.  Now I dont know if most doctors will use the one without the pertussis.  And, of course, there are a few families that are so worried about any vaccines at all that they would pass on this one.  But, that is rare.  Tetnus is devastating. 

If you want to make sure children are protected from it,  make sure your area reaches out to vaccine wary groups and lets them know that they can get the Tetnus only shot, and make sure that the pediatricians can get it and will do it with no shame or blame.  Do they make a tetnus stand alone vaccine ?  Is it available in your community and the rural commmunity clinics and outreach centers in your state ?  Can the family opt for it and still decline others, so get this protection for their child without giving up rights abut other vaccines ?


Offline surfivor

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2019, 07:49:05 PM »

It seems like it’s not about what you want but what medical authorities want to push. If your in a hospital and need to rest, they will give you no choice but to wake you up in the middle of the night to take your blood pressure. You can’t tell them to leave you alone. So they won’t give you a choice if you want one vaccine and not the others, their goal is most always to push their solution

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2019, 12:39:29 AM »
Most families, even if they get no other vaccines, vaccinate their child for tetnus.  That has been my observation being part of these social groups.  The one thing that keeps some of them from getting it is that some doctors do not carry it by itself and the family may not want the pertussis vaccine.   19 years ago our Gp could and did get the Dt as that was available as booster for adults and my youngest was able to get vaccinated for diptheria/tetnus, not that we anted the diptheria but he could not get tetnus without it.  That likely kept other families from getting it,  the fact that it wasnt available as a stand alone.  Now I dont know if most doctors will use the one without the pertussis.  And, of course, there are a few families that are so worried about any vaccines at all that they would pass on this one.  But, that is rare.  Tetnus is devastating. 

Why is tetanus considered acceptable when other vaccinations are not?

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2019, 09:18:43 PM »
Why is tetanus considered acceptable when other vaccinations are not?

It isnt acceptable by everybody.  I have made a list somewhere on this forum before on the various, and different, reasons vaccines are skipped by various populations. For many families who may be able to do a risk assessment, if they are to pick *1* vaccine to risk the additives, it would be tetnus.  Also tetnus is not a normal childhood illness.  And, it is not immoral for some religious groups. But, for some, any vaccines are too risky, even the amount of adjuvants, additives from one are seen to be too much of a risk for that child, so then even tetnus is skipped.  But tetnus is common vaccine to get, not for a newborn, for a child toddling around.  Probably why I had my youngest get it by 2years old,  I lived in the country on property that had been horse property.   A city family might wait longer.  I would imagine, for myself, if my child was so sensitive I couldnt risk this one shot, I would work hard to keep that child away from tetnus dangers.

Most people labeled "anti-vax" well that isnt an accurate description for most ( for some it is) Most are delayed vax.  Or, why are so many on the list I dont want all of those -- they are giving an extreme amount of now required shots before a kid reaches 4 years old, one vaccine is for ear infections, one is for diarea, some are for hep A, B one is for the annual flu, etc..... that many parents absolutely do not feel is worth the risk of side affects.  For parents worried about side affects to the additives ( aluminum usually at this point) that toxin builds up the more is injected. Some kids clear out of their system it well, some do not.  So this set of parents will space out, skip alot altogether, use some , they may very well vax against measles and some others as well as tetnus, but this set will pick a few to use, skip most, and space out and delay the ones that are used.

The ones who follow anthroposophical or other medical traditions who hold a non-mainstream view of the role of standard childhood illness make choices based on that viewpoint.  Tetnus is not a normal childhood illness, it is catagorically devastating and hard to impossible to treat.  Measles and chicken pox for example are in a very different category.  ( this group will (or should) encourage the teens and young adults who did not develop childhood immunity to go ahead and get the vaccine for those at that "delayed" time.  So even this group, as well as the skip alot and delay group, is actually part of what alot of you here want,  alot of immunity in the overall population, as we spend most of our time here on the planet over the age of 16 or 18 than we do below it. So, "anti-vax" is a misleading term most of the time.  People, overall, realy are trying to do what is best for health of their developing child.  A 16 year old sure does clear toxins better than a 2 year old.  Although, my 18 year old was sick from getting her diptheria and mmr, it was just sore throught, under the weather, etc... sick, not the devastation a certain sub-set of preschoolers suffer from )

There is another subset of parents that will not use any vaccines for moral/religious reasons as the vaccine use/used aborted fetal tissue either to develope or grow it out.   Most tetnus vaccines are not from one of these cell lines, the list I saw showed only one that was, but in any case these families can easily obtain a tetnus vaccine that has no connection, and since this is so devastating, I *think* ( I am not close to anyone in this group to know) they might opt for this one.  A way to encourage this vaccine in these groups is to make sure that correct tetnus vaccine is carried in those areas and to educate that this particular vaccine does not have that connection.  This is a good way to protect more kids from it, educate those populations with this concern that the tetnus shot does not have this issue ( MMR vaccine does have this issue)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 09:31:02 PM by mountainmoma »

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2019, 10:31:44 PM »
Very good overview., mountainmama.

From a benefit/risk status a tetanus shot is also quite positive.  The consequences of contracting Tetanus, unlike measles, chicken pox, and many other illnesses, is quite high.  And the singular tetanus shot has relatively clean history with few side effects.  Even the current DTP multi-vaccine (DTaP and Tdap) have relatively mild side effects.  A normal DTP vaccine reaction payout from the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is about $80 thousand for medical treatment during recovery.  Compare this to $100 million payouts for MMR Vaccine encephalopathy reactions: https://www.mctlawyers.com/101-million-dollar-vaccine-injury-mmr/

This wasnt always the case.  The original DPT multi-vaccine had heavy rates of issues and severe side effects.  It was pulled from the US market.  The modern replacement DTP versions were found to have a fraction of the issues.  In fact, much of our current vaccine monitoring, recall, and reaction reimbursement laws came into being because of the issues with original DPT. 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 10:46:46 PM by iam4liberty »

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2019, 02:36:44 AM »
I guess the silver lining with Tetanus, given that it's not contagious and thus herd-immunity plays no role in preventing the disease, is that the risks involved with contracting the disease remain steady among the unvaccinated.  The flip-side with all the other vaccinations is that high herd-immunity diminishes the risk to everyone, vaccinated or not.  Out of sight out of mind, maybe.  But it also leads to freeloading, the moral hazard that arises when people decide they can skip the "risk" and still reap the "benefit" of staying disease free, so long as enough stooges keep getting vaccinated.

The risks posed by contagious vaccine preventable diseases never totally disappear until global endemic rates goes to zero, ie until nobody on the planet has it, anywhere.  Once you get to that point you can quit vaccinating, and you should quit, because the risk of the disease is zero and that is obviously outweighed by the risks of the vaccine, no matter how "safe" it is (nothing is 100% safe, just as nothing is 100% non-toxic).  We got there, kinda sorta, with smallpox and quit routine vaccination, but the specter still hovers in bioweapons labs, so we're still not out of the woods on that risk and we could yet pay dearly as a civilization.  We came close with polio and decided here in the US we could sacrifice some effectiveness for increased safety by going from OPV to IPV, but we haven't eradicated it globally and that will allow it return to previously disease free areas without sufficient herd-immunity.


I get that lots of people believe the risk of being vaccinated outweighs the benefit, kinda, sorta, not really as much as I probably should.  But my point of reference is really the risks involved with every other medical intervention out there.  Take any drug, any procedure, any diagnostic test, any provider, on any given day, in any outpatient setting in this country, and the risk of a bad outcome is significant.  Like your risk of getting into a traffic accident kind of significant, everything from fender-bender to being obliterated by a dump-truck.  Anything from irritating inconvenience to dead, the risks in my opinion are roughly comparable, although for some things like surgeries (especially the ones nobody really needed) your odds are probably worse in medicine vs driving your car.  If you really want to increase your risk, combine a whole bunch of risks into one hospital stay and see your chances of being discharged unscathed go way down.  A hospital is great place to catch multiple horrible infections you didn't come in with and the chance for multiple people to demonstrate their professional negligence.  And that's at the really good hospitals.  Who knows what it will be at your hospital?

So, against that dismal backdrop of modern medicine, I look at the risks involved with getting vaccinated and it's several orders of magnitude less.  Like crashing in an airliner kind of risk.  I don't think it even really matters where you get your data from, the difference in risk is that vast.  So I look at people with vaccine hesitancy and wonder why they weren't anywhere near as hesitant when it came to their breast augmentation, cardiac stents, or lumbar spine surgery.  There's a glaring incongruity in how they're evaluating risk.  "Really, you're willing to risk dying under anesthesia for an elective boob job but those unnatural vaccines are a bridge too far?"  And the idea that if you get measles complications you're fine because the hospital and modern medicine will take care of you?  Fingers crossed, but risking going into a hospital for a disease you could have avoided entirely, at extremely low risk, doesn't compute for me.  Vaccination is the closest thing to a free lunch, nothing else even comes close.  Of all things to be up in arms about in medicine, vaccines are at the bottom of my list. 

And I know, a lot of people say they don't need or use modern medicine.  Which may be true, right up until they get really sick and they think they might die.  I'm sure this kid with tetanus had parents who said that.  I'm sure they were very proud of themselves and their self reliance while they were stitching up his forehead.


Have you considered the risks and benefits associated with owning guns?   What are the odds of a negligent discharge at home or the range?  What are the odds the bullet hits your brain or femoral artery?  What are odds your having a gun will save your life at some point in your lifetime?  I like guns a lot, but I don't think they're anywhere close to par with airline safety.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2019, 08:04:53 PM »
From Jacks' facebook today.  Scroll down a few, 3 hours ago at this point  https://www.facebook.com/jack.spirko?__tn__=%2CdC-R-R&eid=ARAROQRCnyMyrXtbOj-UF6RT95Hl1qyPIWMegSJo8lVfBd9dkZ_UYx736pR_BJSQTuBk3RbrOHUDetlL&hc_ref=ARQ_QkoPik_GGT2uTWP4qNbNFwc8bAAd5V1FNkVAazDqC-PDZUX1ksm5Bp6przzGrrY&fref=nf

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Jack Spirko
1 hr ·

Eight Questions I Have for Doctors about Vaccines.

1. If vaccines are safe and effective why did the government set up a special court to pay damages to parents of children who have vaccine injuries that 100% protects the drug companies from all liability?

2. Do vaccine injuries happen, and are some of them severe and even life threatening?

3. Why vaccinate infants for Heb B when 95% have no risk of the illness?

4. If vaccine injuries happen, and my child has a reaction on a day you gave them 5 in one day, how can you tell me which one they reacted to?

5. How can you claim herd immunity is protecting unvacinated children when by your own definition we don't have herd immunity in the US because vaccines wear off and adults don't get booster shots?

6. Why the fear mongering when parents want to be more conservative given that none of the horrors brought up where occuring in the 70s and 80s with a far more conservative approach to vaccines?

7. Should you not be just as concerned with 3500-4000 serious vaccine injuries per year as you are with 100-400 cases of measles?

8. If vaccination is so important why don't you simply work with parents who want to take a more conservative approach but still vaccinate their children?

Exactly --

This is a video talk by him ( it is 24 minutes, maybe we can get him to put a link to this somewhere ? ) where he gives his answers to these 8 questions, since many may not be on facebook, for very good reasons,  here is my synopsis and some quotes:

his answers :

(1) Obviously, this is only needed as there are damages

(2) obviously vaccine injuries happen, and some are life threatening and life altering.  And, parents should be allowed the right to make the decision for their child if the risk benefit is worth it for each particular shot

(3) All doctors he has talked to tell him that drug users kids are at risk, and so it is easier for them to not try and figure this out but just vaccinate all newborns for Hep B.  Jack's answer to this is " No, you do not get to make this decision for my infant when I know she is not exposed to IV drugs or out selling her body on the street and neither is her mother"  In other words,  this risk for a small percent of the population should not take away all parents rights to choose their infant to have this or not. So, logically, since vaccine injuries happen, and my child is not at risk, why would I do this ? ( at least one commentor says in his area they can call CPS if you say no to this, and, actually a young woman I had work for me told me they threatened her the same way, although she knew she was not in a risk group, she had to let them as she was scared to say no and lose the baby)

(4) " dont you think it would be a good idea to know which one they reacted to ? " presumption of non-life threatening, but serious reaction, like rash, high fever, seizure that resolves, for example " you guys are supposed to be people of science and this is how science works..... everyone knows that if one substance has reactions and risks of reactions, and another substance has the same that taking them together increases risks of reactions... two substances you have an allergic reaction to seperately, when you have both combined, you are going to have a worse allergic reaction together, often worse than the 2 would add up to individually.  "  So, he says wouldnt it make sense to have them seperately and if one causes a reaction to then have parents able to make an informed decision on how to procede

(5)he says " according to the CDC to have herd immunity you need to have a 95% vaccination rate... by this they mean not that you have ever gotten a shot but that you are still immune.... " He says this immunity has worn off for many adults ".. every doctor knows this and I am not pulling this out of my ass..." ( so, yes, now you know I am listening and taking notes from Jacks talk today)  with all these adults over 40 not having shot since 5 or 12 "... how is it even possible that we have a 95% vaccination rate...the answer is that it isnt.  There is NO heard immunity..."  often more like 60-70% percent range, which is not herd immunity according to the CDC  " SO how can you go claiming they must get vaccinated to keep herd immunity when we do not have it, please explain "

(6) " in 1980, we gave 9 shots, we never gave more than 2 at one time, and in 1980 we did not have people falling over and dying " no super pandemics, same number of measles cases as now, no kids in wheelchairs  "why the fear mongering" and villifying of  parents today  who want to be more conservative.  We have 49 doses of 14 vaccines all by the age of 6 required now.  Why not admit that a conservative approach does work, and we know this because it DID work when we had this approach.  Why cant we address this with a modicum of respect for these parents who ask this question and want a more conservative approach  -- why do we fear monger ?

(7)  and on top of those verified 3500-4000 cases .. alot are encephalopathy, and that is brain swelling, and even when the swelling goes down after 3 days, " How can you tell me that had no long term impact on my childs mental developement ? "  and, most cases of the measles, those 300 cases are very mild, and that one case of measles that causes brain swelling is less likely statistically less of these, than we have from the known vaccine reaction cases of brain swelling.  How can we tell people that there is a big problem with this 300 cases of measles but there is not a problem with the 3500 to 4000 vaccine adverse reactions ?

(8) If vaccines are that important, then why do you mock, browbeat, call them "anti-science" etc... parents who want to be more conservative ?  Why not work with the parents who want less vaccines or a delayed scheduale ?  Why not acknowledge these risks are real.  Wouldnt you rather the child get some or get them delayed than to alienate and have them get none at all.   His opinion is that he thinks they are scared that if they admit the potential risks that people will take a more conservative approach, and they are scared we will go back to the 1800s.  He thinks they are wrong and this will over time backfire as parents figure out they have been lied to, then they will also then not trust the doctor/medical establishment and so not trust or listen to you at all.  There is a safer approach, we are being misled, doesnt mean vaccine are bad or they dont help at all, it does mean that people should have the freedom, in the United States of America, to ask questions without being mocked for them, to not be attack in ad hominum attacks

« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 08:15:31 PM by mountainmoma »

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2019, 09:18:35 PM »
Have you considered the risks and benefits associated with owning guns?   What are the odds of a negligent discharge at home or the range?  What are the odds the bullet hits your brain or femoral artery?  What are odds your having a gun will save your life at some point in your lifetime?  I like guns a lot, but I don't think they're anywhere close to par with airline safety.

Yes. As the range safety officer of the largest range in the region I think about this a lot.  I present the range safety course to about 400 people a year.  This doesnt include the hundreds of students in firearm classes.  So I am always looking for ways to present the best information possible.

The odds of a firearm being used for protection is far greater than chance of negligent discharge causing injury.    Defensive use of firearms is regularly estimated at about 2 million a year in US.  Firearm injuries in total is estimated at about 100 thousand including suicide and homicides.  Negligent discharges are a fraction of those with all accidents and NDs resulting in about 500 deaths.  Specifically estimating negligent discharge injuries at the range, we can look at major schools like Front Sight where thousands of students a year perform millions of firearm manipulations.  There are very few NDs experienced: https://www.frontsight.com/SafetyReports.asp?Action=ShowSingle&ID=5  For comparison, according to the NTSB in 2016 there were 408 fatalities in the 1335 US civil air traffic accidents (a near low year).

Of course, we are always working to reduce firearm accidents through improved products, training, and practices. The same attitude is what people are applying to vaccines.  Spacing vaccinations so they can watch for and understand reactions, eliminating low benefit/high risk formulations, monitoring vaccine recalls, etc.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2019, 11:40:14 PM »

Unfortunately modern medicine in many cases also carries risk. There is institutional bias at work often times. The idea of mandatory vaccinations seems pretty disturbing especially when there is no evidence of a serious pandemic, even then I might question it but without that it seems much more absurd. With the threat of mandatory vaccines for adults it’s especially absurd. Kids and young parents may be deceived by bad information but those of us who have researched things and been around the block a few times have seen many many questions raised

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2019, 01:05:34 AM »
Where did this idea come from that the medical establishment doesn't admit there are no risks related to vaccination?  Or that a vaccine can't honestly be described as safe if it carries any risks whatsoever?  That's an impossible standard. 

People have died as a result of being vaccinated, that is an undisputed scientific fact, and there will continue to be some deaths that are attributable to vaccination in the future.  Nobody in their right mind can deny that.  Likewise, people have died in commercial airline accidents and will continue to die in the future.  Every time you get on the plane you risk dying a horrible death in a plane crash.  It's an extremely small risk for both air travel and vaccination, but it never goes to zero.  However, despite their ever present risk of death, I submit that both commercial airline travel and routine vaccination programs in the US can justifiably be classified as extraordinarily safe systems.  Relative to the higher risk of death in almost every other aspect of medicine, or in the remaining modes of transportation (like cars), both of which I would still classify as safe, flying across the country or getting vaccinated is so much safer it almost sounds too good to be true.

However, there's no getting around the fact that there is much more fear of flying than driving in a car, despite the statistical evidence to the contrary.  For whatever reason, that seems to be true with vaccinations compared to the rest of medicine.  I don't know what the solution to that is, because we're afraid of what we're afraid of, and that's just human nature.


I would caution against correlating National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program payouts with actual causation as the vast majority of claims are settled without a solid causal link to vaccines.  It's like declaring OB/GYN docs incompetent as a specialty because of all the money their malpractice pays out on baby's born with abnormalities, a good chunk of which could never have been detected or prevented, regardless.  Likewise with VAERS, which is an early warning system designed to collect anecdotal reports of adverse vaccine reasons for further investigation.  Obviously there are true adverse reactions in both data sets, but there's more noise, unfortunately.  You have to remember that not every case of encephalitis within six months of vaccination was caused by the vaccine, in fact most aren't, and it can be extremely difficult to statistically pick out true signal from the background noise.


If delayed schedules are what it takes for some to be comfortable getting their kids immunized, that's fine, obviously it's better to be late than never.  But the evidence it makes a difference either way in terms of safety or immunity isn't proving out.  We're getting more and more large data set analyses from outside the US analyzing this stuff in addition to our own CDC surveillance, most recently a large study from Denmark, and none of this data favors the delayed schedule.  The bigger risk with delaying vaccination is it prolongs the window of time the child is vulnerable without optimal immunity.  I know that doesn't seem like a significant risk to some people, but as a general rule the risk of your child dying from a vaccine preventable disease it's actually much, much higher than the risk of dying from the vaccine.


Also, it is unfair to conclude that those of us who believe in the evidence supporting routine vaccinations automatically support forced vaccination.  I haven't seen a shred of that in my community, nor would I support it.  A desire to persuade should not be construed as a will to coerce.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2019, 07:33:06 PM »
Where did this idea come from that the medical establishment doesn't admit there are no risks related to vaccination?  Or that a vaccine can't honestly be described as safe if it carries any risks whatsoever?  That's an impossible standard. 

Its not the general medical establishment. Heck, I dont know a single doctor who agrees with the standard vaccination schedule. And the CDC strongly encourages all doctors to follow the law by providing all patients and their guardians with Vaccine Information Statements and to discuss adverse reactions so people are informed. 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/about/facts-vis.html

A VIS or Vaccine Information Statement is a document, produced by CDC, that informs vaccine recipients – or their parents or legal representatives – about the benefits and risks of a vaccine they are receiving.
...
The appropriate VIS must be given prior to the vaccination, and must be given prior to each dose of a multi-dose series. It must be given regardless of the age of the recipient.
...


It is the vaccine activists who make unrealistic safety claims.

I would caution against correlating National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program payouts with actual causation as the vast majority of claims are settled without a solid causal link to vaccines.  It's like declaring OB/GYN docs incompetent as a specialty because of all the money their malpractice pays out on baby's born with abnormalities, a good chunk of which could never have been detected or prevented, regardless.  Likewise with VAERS, which is an early warning system designed to collect anecdotal reports of adverse vaccine reasons for further investigation.  Obviously there are true adverse reactions in both data sets, but there's more noise, unfortunately.  You have to remember that not every case of encephalitis within six months of vaccination was caused by the vaccine, in fact most aren't, and it can be extremely difficult to statistically pick out true signal from the background noise.

This is incorrect.  It is a requirement that causation be established before a payment is released. Only vaccines on the the vaccine injury table can receive payments.  A person claiming compensation must first show verified indications in alignment with the Vaccine Injury Table including timing  These indications and times are established through rigorous scientific investigations.

https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/hrsa/vaccine-compensation/vaccine-injury-table.pdf

To win an award, a claimant is furthered required to verify a causal connection through medical tests between the injury and that vaccine.  The differences between awards' monetary values are based soley on the cost of recovery/care for the different effects.  Tetanus is in the thousands because generally what happens is the person loses strength in their arm and medical care is needed to address this.  Measles (MMR) is in the tens to hundred of millions as the youths with accute encephalopathy suffer brain damage and require heavy care for the rest of their lives.  So it is a very high hurdle to recieve compensation and the number of awards falls far short of the number of adverse reactions studies show happens.

Also, it is unfair to conclude that those of us who believe in the evidence supporting routine vaccinations automatically support forced vaccination.  I haven't seen a shred of that in my community, nor would I support it.  A desire to persuade should not be construed as a will to coerce.

Attack articles like the below show up constantly in papers and online.  I would be very surprised they arent in yours.  Just look at what Jack is dealing with online.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/news/2015/02/05/withholding-vaccinations-is-a-form-of-child-abuse
Withholding vaccinations is a form of child abuse

Let us cut through all this earnest talk about parental rights and government mandates. Let us quit breathing fake zombie life into the illusory “debate” over whether routine childhood immunizations are a good idea.

This issue, which represents a ludicrous effort to throw one of the greatest achievements in human history down a sewer hole, is not a “debate.” Not unless you’re in favor of child abuse....


« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 07:39:08 PM by iam4liberty »

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2019, 10:39:30 PM »
To win an award, a claimant is furthered required to verify a causal connection through medical tests between the injury and that vaccine.  The differences between awards' monetary values are based soley on the cost of recovery/care for the different effects.  Tetanus is in the thousands because generally what happens is the person loses strength in their arm and medical care is needed to address this.  Measles (MMR) is in the tens to hundred of millions as the youths with accute encephalopathy suffer brain damage and require heavy care for the rest of their lives.  So it is a very high hurdle to recieve compensation and the number of awards falls far short of the number of adverse reactions studies show happens.

I forgot to mention it is possible to be awarded compensation without winning in the court. In about 70% of cases now HHS will provide the compensation without themselves filing a finding of causation with the court so as to save time and money.  In these instances, the case for causation has still been provided by the claimant (otherwise it wouldnt be able to proceed) and it still goes into medical literature as such.

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2019, 12:30:39 PM »
I forgot to mention it is possible to be awarded compensation without winning in the court. In about 70% of cases now HHS will provide the compensation without themselves filing a finding of causation with the court so as to save time and money.  In these instances, the case for causation has still been provided by the claimant (otherwise it wouldnt be able to proceed) and it still goes into medical literature as such.

It’s actually 80% and using the claimant’s proof of causation is obviously flawed.  The bar has been set very low by HHS, which I don’t have a problem with. Unfortunately kids get encephalitis, some will occur after vaccination, but analysis shows most of them would have gotten it even if they hadn’t been vaccinated. Lots of noise but hard to pull out much signal, so why drag the families through the courts.

There’s way more kids getting maimed and killed in traffic accidents than adverse vaccine reactions.  Way, way, way more. It’s all about perspective.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2019, 06:47:20 PM »
It’s actually 80%

Was 80%, now 70% in latest report.

https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/hrsa/vaccine-compensation/data/monthly-stats-march-2019.pdf
Approximately 70 percent of all compensation awarded by the VICP comes as result of a negotiated settlement between the parties...

using the claimant’s proof of causation is obviously flawed.

Not at all. If HHS believes it is not correct they will force it through court process.  And even among these cases that HHS forcefully objects, the court found for compensating claimants in 4,250 of 6,197 in the most recent set of petitions. (Which is a huge improvement since GOA report csme out, see below).

The bar has been set very low by HHS, which I don’t have a problem with.

In 2014, the Government Accountability Office ran an investigation for Congress on the Vaccine Compensation Program and found that HHS was being too restrictive given the law.  They found they were doing a poor job informing doctors, lawyers, and general public on availability of the program.  They found that they werent adding vaccines to the table as needed and questioned the process for removing vaccines.  They found that even when adding vaccines to table they were failing to add indications thus forcing higher levels of work on claimants.  And they found that they were taking too long in processing cases. All this has been complained about for years and HHS failed to respond appropriately as required by law.

https://www.gao.gov/assets/670/667136.pdf

This broken social contract is causing a great deal of angst, especially among those who worked with congress to get the law passed:

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/11/10/vaccine-injury-compensation.aspx
Vaccine Injury Compensation: Government’s Broken Social Contract with Parents

There’s way more kids getting maimed and killed in traffic accidents than adverse vaccine reactions.  Way, way, way more. It’s all about perspective.

Good analogy.  Parents have a right to choose not to have their kids forced bussed to school if they feel it is unsafe.  So why shouldnt they have a right to decide if their kids are injected with a biological/chemical mix if they feel it is unsafe?   It is all about who should make the risk benefit analysis. Ethically that is answered by the principles of non-aggression, self-ownership, and subsidiarity.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 07:00:42 PM by iam4liberty »

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Tetanus returns to Oregon after more than 30 years
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2019, 07:24:56 PM »
Good analogy.  Parents have a right to choose not to have their kids forced bussed to school if they feel it is unsafe.  So why shouldnt they have a right to decide if their kids are injected with a biological/chemical mix if they feel it is unsafe?   It is all about who should make the risk benefit analysis. Ethically that is answered by the principles of non-aggression, self-ownership, and subsidiarity.

I'd like to know how many do choose not to bus their kids for safety reasons, but in general I don't object to people choosing what happens to their kids.  It gets sticky, though, when decisions about their own kids increases the risk to others.  Freedom from consequences isn't my idea of liberty.