Wealth Tax?

[David in MN]

I don't know if you've heard but there's this Elizabeth Warren person proposing a wealth tax. She claims it will only effect "billionaires" but you're going to have to prove you don't have a billion in assets. So it will effect everyone.

The federal government will have to assess your savings, investments, house, cars, boat, artwork, powertools, lawn mower, grill, light bulbs, literally everything you own. And if you're dumb enough to own a business the value of that business must be assessed. Every year.

I don't know how we'd even begin to accomplish this. And if we exempt light bulbs why wouldn't "billionaires" just buy warehouses full of light bulbs? This is beyond stupid. The IRS would have to assign an asset value for my cherry tree.

I guess Harvard can't teach financial logic.

[LvsChant]

Scary that someone that stupid has attained her position... I'm sure she isn't the only one who would qualify for this description, but with her lying about being a native American most of her adult life, her wild socialist ideas, etc., I'm surprised she doesn't get laughed away whenever she opens her mouth. Does this idea of hers have any support by other senators?

[David in MN]

I don't know how any serious person could believe this. Do we really believe the IRS will evaluate and assess your clothing and wedding ring? If that sounds insane bear in mind Victoria's Secret will sell you a million dollar bra. The IRS would be in charge of my wife's lingerie. If that makes Warren blush and say she won't count that asset guess what the new currency will be?

And if that's not nuts enough we need to calculate "wealth". Let's assign a value to my being bilingual. Or my ability to do calculus. Or my ability to walk.

Only the dumbest people on planet earth would believe they could even calculate wealth. They already don't know how much silver I own. Do they know our household assets in the form of cookware, designer purses, firearms, or socket sets?

I call BS.

[iam4liberty]

It is BS.  This is Warren trying to shake down Zuckerberg and other tech titans.  Deplatform Trump, the LP, and the GP and you'll get a nice carve out and lucrative government contracts.  Dont and she will find some way to seize all their assets if elected.   

[Morning Sunshine]

Only the dumbest people on planet earth would believe they could even calculate wealth. They already don't know how much silver I own. Do they know our household assets in the form of cookware, designer purses, firearms, or socket sets?

as I recall, in the middle ages, taxes were assessed on wealth - the type and style of clothes, the number of doors/windows in a house, jewelry worn in public, etc.  A savvy person could hide wealth by acting poor.  BUT the culture was such that you wanted to show your wealth, as power went to the wealthy, and powerful people attracted more wealth.

[atl]

South Dakota had a personal property tax at one time.  It was self assessed meaning you listed your personal property and probably the value and a tax was assessed. (It was phased out when I was around ten). I think the township board may have helped with the assessment of it also but I am not certain.

At the time it was extremely unpopular as much of the population lived on small farms and had to pay a tax on machinery and livestock. This shifted the tax burden to any business that was asset heavy to generate income. If you are interested i have attached a link to an extension bulletin discussing this. https://openprairie.sdstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1033&context=econ_comm

While I have no love for billionaires I am not naive enough to think another tax will have no consequences to the rest of us.

[David in MN]

Start looking around and ask yourself if you're quite a bit closer to millionaire than you thought. If you've got a house, 401(k), IRA, Roth IRA, a couple cars, a garage full of tools, a few rifles, tractor, and a nice kitchen setup you might be getting close.

When we hear these evil politicians talk of "millionaires and billionaires" they are talking about us. These numbers get scary but a CNBC article says the average household has about $8k in the bank. OK, that's your resource pool to pay the wealth tax because of your house and cars. The math on this is real bad and socially destructive.

Would that the news present these simple economic facts.

[surfivor]

 I have always thought that the democrats are going to tax the middle class or upper middle class. The ultra rich never have to pay anything. That has been my perception, even if Bill Gates or Warren Buffet try to give the opposite impression, it seems to be not true at all.

 I would be more in favor of taxation if it seemed as if taxes actually went to good purposes. Often times I am not convinced that they do or it is a very mixed result. On the other hand, it doesn't seem realistic to think you will someday not have to pay taxes. Railing against taxes and saying it is theft and all that seems counter productive to me. There are many other important problems besides taxes, but I don't trust Liz Warren at any rate. I didn't necessarily trust Trump either, though he has turned out better than I might have expected. He does not seem to have as many establishment ties as Warren and the left has scarred me off in so many ways and increasingly so as time goes on

[David in MN]

I have always thought that the democrats are going to tax the middle class or upper middle class. The ultra rich never have to pay anything. That has been my perception, even if Bill Gates or Warren Buffet try to give the opposite impression, it seems to be not true at all.

 I would be more in favor of taxation if it seemed as if taxes actually went to good purposes. Often times I am not convinced that they do or it is a very mixed result. On the other hand, it doesn't seem realistic to think you will someday not have to pay taxes. Railing against taxes and saying it is theft and all that seems counter productive to me. There are many other important problems besides taxes, but I don't trust Liz Warren at any rate. I didn't necessarily trust Trump either, though he has turned out better than I might have expected. He does not seem to have as many establishment ties as Warren and the left has scarred me off in so many ways and increasingly so as time goes on

Federally the wealthy basically pay all the taxes. I know Warren Buffet is a jerk who likes to comment that he pays a lower rate than his secretary because he pays a dividend tax and she must pay income and payroll. But the wealthiest cover almost all the money. Half of Americans pay zero in taxes. They are too poor.

But when we shift to a wealth tax we need to assess "wealth". I have no idea what your "wealth" is. I have a cousin with a $15k bicycle. When we start talking about taxing the value of your property the sky is the limit. Maybe you have a penchant for a sport, fashion clothing, or jewelry. Under Warren the IRS would need to know your entire financial history.

And it hits the poor too. Just because you don't bear the tax doesn't mean the cost of compliance goes away. Everybody needs to prove their wealth. There are plenty of guys out there who pride themselves on their wife's wedding ring and their Snap On tools. They're not rich and busting their ass for a living. But the assets... What about the backbone of America? Truckers? You got a house and a Mack you're getting close. How about every farmer?

That's why this is a hill to die on. Anything in assets could be "wealth" and the poorest among us would be showing their jewelry in shaky hands to an IRS agent. That thought sickens me.

[LvsChant]

One more way to make criminals out of all of us. What percentage would actually comply with this insanity?

[surfivor]

It seems there are all kinds of articles how the mega rich have tax shelters, offshore accounts, accountants, and numerous ways to avoid paying high taxes. If by rich we mean upper middle class or moderately rich then maybe that is different



I think China offered companies to not have to pay taxes for doing business over there. Big Companies get all kinds of tax incentives and bailouts. Smaller companies probably don’t.

 I think Warren Buffett is just playing games however. He is trying to create a political statement to raise taxes on the upper middle class and not himself by saying rich people should pay more taxes and acting as if he wants to pay more taxes but it’s just an act. He knows his taxes are not going to go up and Liz warren is not going to raise taxes on billionaires even if she claims she is

https://www.topaccountingdegrees.org/taxes/

[David in MN]

Yeah I pay no taxes. Between the city, the county, the state, and the feds I'm on the hook for about half my income. My 4 year old pays more than 50% of Americans because she is legally a professional investor. If that's not enough in FY 2018 I payed tax to Brazil, Columbia, Chile, South Africa, China, Japan without going to any of them. I can't cut a tree without calling it "inventory" for my woodworking business. People who think the rich don't pay their fair share should try their hand at running a business and doing international investing.

But a wealth tax. Well when I got my daughter yesterday I wore a Calvin Klein jacket with a Tommy Hilfiger scarf. I wore my wedding ring and my beloved solid gold ring with a cat's eye my wife gave me years ago. With designer jeans and a pair of Eccos I look good. What's the tax? You want my scarf? My wedding ring? My shoes?

[LvsChant]

Yeah I pay no taxes. Between the city, the county, the state, and the feds I'm on the hook for about half my income. My 4 year old pays more than 50% of Americans because she is legally a professional investor. If that's not enough in FY 2018 I payed tax to Brazil, Columbia, Chile, South Africa, China, Japan without going to any of them. I can't cut a tree without calling it "inventory" for my woodworking business. People who think the rich don't pay their fair share should try their hand at running a business and doing international investing.

But a wealth tax. Well when I got my daughter yesterday I wore a Calvin Klein jacket with a Tommy Hilfiger scarf. I wore my wedding ring and my beloved solid gold ring with a cat's eye my wife gave me years ago. With designer jeans and a pair of Eccos I look good. What's the tax? You want my scarf? My wedding ring? My shoes?

Right... I do realize that a huge percentage of the populace does not pay federal income tax. However, we ALL pay sales taxes, payroll taxes (assuming we are employed), licensing fees, car registration fees, yada, yada, yada...

I think it is astounding just how onerous the tax burden has become. And we (meaning the majority) keep on voting for more bond issues, additions to sales taxes, hotel taxes, etc. I think the non-homeowners are happy to vote for bond issues on property taxes since they own no property. Those who live in a town but don't need local hotels think it is fine for out-of-towners to pay more hotel taxes... city government convinces people that additional value added taxes (sales tax) is needed to pay for (fill-in-the-blank) and people are ok with it because they think most of the cost will be paid by others.

I have no idea where it will all end... but I don't think it will look pretty.

[David in MN]

Don't get me going. MN taxes clothing. So you need to consider your tax burden when outfitting an infant for our winters. If that doesn't make you sick I don't know what will. Loved paying Chicago's hotel tax to visit my dying grandmother. It takes a real special person to jack up gas and land taxes so the price of milk goes up for the poorest among us. If I could bottle the fury I have for the tax system.

I also get mad because "compliance" is often the biggest cost. Put it this way... My dad's parents were wealthy. They lived  in a collapsing farmhouse with constant issues and wore overalls and each had lost a hand but they were living on 1-2 million dollars of Wisconsin farmland. They were dirt poor millionaires. What would taxing them more do to the price of a box of cereal for the unwed teen mom?

What do you think I'd rather do? Spend 2 days with a lawyer and accountant to figure out my tax burden or take all that time and money to the food shelf? These taxes that will bring about paradise hurt the poorest among us. It makes me sick.

[David in MN]

Another place this hits... The "wealthy" frequently invest in municipal bonds because they are tax free. Many live fat and happy with the predictable return. But if you wealth tax those holdings the return might drop too low.

That's all fine and good but those muni bonds pay for things like bridges and water towers. This idea could kneecap cities across the country.

By the by those of us with the money are not going to sit around and watch it bleed. Everybody thinks we are blind idiots who drunkenly found gold on grandpa's back 40. That we won't be moved by tax policy. Why are muni bonds tax free? It sure seems like smart people know that tax law impacts society.

[LvsChant]

It sure seems like smart people know that tax law impacts society.

Absolutely! For those who are mobile, they move to places with more advantageous local tax laws... if they are tied to a particular geography, taxation greatly influences their behavior. And, within a local area, choosing to live outside city boundaries vs within to avoid taxation.

One reason I think Amazon has had such success (in addition to the convenience and cheap shipping) was the tax-free aspect of it. Sadly, it is no longer so, but the tax savings alone were quite substantial for many who began to shop nearly exclusively online.

I know there are many who really like living in Texas because of the lack of personal income tax... but after living there myself, it would not be a choice I would make again because of the ridiculously high property taxes. Even living outside the Ft. Worth city limits (which cut those taxes significantly), we were paying about $7500/yr in property taxes for our home, of which about $3500 was for the local school system. (as a comparison, we paid about $1600/year for a similarly-sized home in NM) Being homeschoolers, we saw no benefit in the massive school buildings and sport stadium our tax money was paying for. We were not even allowed to have our children participate in any of the school sports activites, as I recall.  If I were forced to live in Texas again, I'd be very tempted to rent and then leave at the earliest possible opportunity.

As local governments struggle with trying to find more ways to increase revenue so that they can continue to redistribute the money as they see fit, I have heard that one northwest state (Washington, maybe?) is considering requiring all motor vehicles to be installed with a mileage meter so that they can be taxed on their road usage (Jack was predicting this as car gas mileage improved and they couldn't get enough money at the gas pumps).

Some states (Indiana, for one) charge an excise tax on your vehicles annually. I found this particularly annoying when we lived there. It is also a bit hard to understand, given that it was once a state with a large number of automobile plants located there. This tax would encourage you to drive your old vehicles longer so that the annual excise tax would decrease each year, which is not what car manufacturers hope for.

[David in MN]

And now she's signing on with Bernie and a few misguided socialists about curbing private equity investing.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/18/elizabeth-warren-bernie-sanders-call-report-defending-private-equity-a-sham.html

This lady is evil incarnate. We need private equity to make sense of the capital in a company. Schumpeter wrote about this 100 years ago. Nobody relishes closing a business and dividing assets but we just don't need typewriters, horseshoes, or buggy whips anymore. Somebody has to come in and salvage what is possible. To do less is inhumane to the employees. Imagine a world where Warren mandates the continued creation of Commodore 64s.

I could use some real foul language here and Lord knows she has earned it. There's not one nickel my wife and I have built from nothing she wouldn't be willing to steal for her schemes from her ivory tower as we turn wrenches in the bitter cold.

She sparks my Ayn Rand side and I get a little wound up. I have had my limit of people who have never created anything telling me how much I owe them.

[LvsChant]

Agreed.

[iam4liberty]

And now she's signing on with Bernie and a few misguided socialists about curbing private equity investing.

Come now. She is an uber capitalist. Any talk to the contrary is just conspiracy theory.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/elizabeth-warren-capitalist-not-socialist_n_5c852d68e4b0d936162924d5
Senator Elizabeth Warren: It’s ‘Just Wrong’ To Call Me A Socialist
The 2020 Democratic presidential hopeful said she’s a capitalist who supports markets that “have a cop on the beat.”

Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) on Sunday rejected Republican-fueled rumors that she’s a socialist, saying instead that she’s a capitalist who believes in markets that operate on “a level playing field.”

[David in MN]

I rather love that in the debates she calls it "2 cents" rather than "2 percent". Like I'm a dirty jerk for clinging to 2 pennies.

[FreeLancer]

My wife and I were at an LA restaurant a couple years ago and Warren and her family were waiting just outside for a table. For 15 minutes, while her husband is having a great time with their kids and grandkids, she’s pacing around the courtyard all by herself looking up and down at the sky and buildings like a lunatic. She was was kind of disheveled and wearing the same outfit she always does and if I hadn’t recognized her she could have been confused for a bag lady.  It was weird.

[David in MN]

My wife and I were at an LA restaurant a couple years ago and Warren and her family were waiting just outside for a table. For 15 minutes, while her husband is having a great time with their kids and grandkids, she’s pacing around the courtyard all by herself looking up and down at the sky and buildings like a lunatic. She was was kind of disheveled and wearing the same outfit she always does and if I hadn’t recognized her she could have been confused for a bag lady.  It was weird.

I've heard similar from my sister who lives out east. Not quite the Amy Klobuchar who tosses books at interns in tirades but definitely out to lunch. And not "nice". I also know a man who took her classes at Harvard years ago who will say "something has changed in her". I guess she didn't always seem like a bitter hectoring old churchlady.

I can't presume to know her but when she says the wealth tax will only hit a few billionaires... That's how the income tax passed. It's disingenuous at best.

[FreeLancer]

She had no entourage, no security, nobody asking for selfies.  It was so pathetic, and combined with her Indian DNA flap, I was shocked to hear she’s running again.  If she can’t get any love in LA I don’t see how she has a chance in hell.

[surfivor]

I can't presume to know her but when she says the wealth tax will only hit a few billionaires... That's how the income tax passed. It's disingenuous at best.

 I think it's the complete opposite, it won't end up effecting billionaires - after all they have all the clout and never have enough money or power. It will effect the middle class and those who are only moderately rich with a few million

[David in MN]

She oddly gets favorable media coverage because she is a brilliant mind with a "plan" for everything. Except when she gets questioned about any specific detail where it turns out all her plans are Soviet claptrap and new tax schedules.

She has a bad image problem and the cat's out of the bag but in a Democratic primary with so many colorful characters maybe she's the one? Of the lot I only feel I can stomach Andrew Yang and Tulsi Gabbert. She's good on war and he at least has some semblance of how economics work. Even Booker said that Warren's plan would require the IRS to evaluate your silverware for value. I don't know why the bitter old school marm who pretended to be an Indian just gets a pass. Doesn't play well here.

It is strange that a political candidate can run on a policy of introducing a new tax. And taxing property is little but a race to the bottom. Introducing the idea that "you have more money than me so pay up" is little more than bank robbery. And there is a cultural aspect that a lot of us are here because our ancestors fled this confiscatory tax and redistribution that found favor in Eastern Europe in the early 1900s.

I don't know how this plays out but it is interesting that it's in the zeitgeist. I wouldn't begin to guess how it gets implemented and it's the most easy tax to cheat on. Very strange times.

[surfivor]

Liz Warren seems popular in our state. I don't get it but Boston is very liberal. She claimed to be native American and clearly was supporting Hilary in 2016. My sister gave my mother her biography or some such for Christmas a couple of years ago

[iam4liberty]

I hear all this, you know, 'Well, this is class warfare, this is whatever.' No. There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own — nobody. You built a factory out there? Good for you. But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police-forces and fire-forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory — and hire someone to protect against this — because of the work the rest of us did. Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea. God bless — keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is, you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.

[David in MN]

I hear all this, you know, 'Well, this is class warfare, this is whatever.' No. There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own — nobody. You built a factory out there? Good for you. But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police-forces and fire-forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory — and hire someone to protect against this — because of the work the rest of us did. Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea. God bless — keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is, you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.

I love the people who think like this. The guy who "used the road" to carry backbreaking bricks to build his pizza  oven and open a business owes the guy watching football.

I ran track in high school. My best 800 was 2:08. That's a solid time if not super-competitive. Did the guys running 1:45 and going to state owe me money? They didn't build the track or their shoes and without me to beat how would they distinguish themselves?

Wanting what your neighbor has is covetousness. It makes me ill.

[iam4liberty]

There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me – because they want to give something back. They know they didn't – look, if you've been successful, you didn't get there on your own. You didn't get there on your own. I'm always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something – there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges--if you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

[Morning Sunshine]

"You didn't build that road - but you used it to build your successful business."

forgive me if my thoughts are a bit disjointed, but I want to get them out for discussion.

everyone who uses the roads pays for them, correct?  By the gallon in fuel tax (in theory, that is the purpose of fuel tax).  So if I only use the roads to get to my 9-5, I am paying for that much of the use of the roads.  But if I use the roads to bring in merchandise to stock my store, I am paying the shipping/trucking company to buy the gas, and pay the tax on the roads. Meaning, again, I pay for my use of the roads.  Why, if I have built up a business using the roads that I pay for, do I have to pay more for what anyone COULD do if they had the drive to do so?

The opportunity is there if you want to build a business.  The road is available for your use, you pay for your use of it.  If I want to work a 9-5, and not be responsible for the livelihood of other people, I can do that; and have off the normal holidays and be quite content with my life.
But if I have a vision of building something other people want, and I spend all my holidays working and taking family time when I can get, usually in a work-related area.  And I have taken on the responsibility of employing other people and providing for other families, why can I not decide how I want to spend the results of that sacrifice?  I have already paid for my use of the roads.  Why do I have to pay more for my -and my family's - sacrifices?

To me it is like my family giving up vacations and cruises and fancy expensive electronics and new cars that all the people around here spend money on, so that we can get out of debt.  Then have the people who spent money on all that complain that they will never be rich and the government should forgive their student loans and mortgages.   There are sacrifices to be made and a cost-benefit ratio that needs to be taken into account.

Last year, we made the conscious decision to take everything we had in our savings account - our rainy day fund, our 1-year of expenses saved - to do something for one son who needed intervention desperately.  We paid for him to go to the Anasazi Foundation  https://www.anasazi.org/ knowing that the insurance would probably NOT pay for it since he had not YET done anything that would be considered damaged.  I am supposed to wait until he gets into drugs or attempts suicide before he is considered "at risk."  I wasn't going to wait that long.  We weighed the options and decided that what else did we have the money for if not for the well-being of our children.  We could have paid off our house earlier, gone to Hawaii with ALL the kids, bought a new vehicle, but our choice was to help the one. Our cost-benefit analysis came off as it was better for this one to have the money than the family.


If you have built a business, and are successful, give back.  Absolutely.  But do it on your terms not someone else's.  I refuse to give money to the American Red Cross.  Does that mean I am a stingy b-- without a heart?  No.  I give in other ways to other organizations I like better, with better management of funds.  I definitely do not want to give my charitable contributions to the US .gov to give to those who need it; they have a worse track record than ARC.

And don't make me contribute to .gov at the point of a gun.  Cuz that takes you into the realm of slavery.