Author Topic: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?  (Read 8573 times)

Offline surfivor

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VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« on: November 28, 2019, 12:56:43 PM »
According to natural news this would ban martial arts as well as all weapons I guess ? If this is true it is the total opposite of the second amendment and what you always knew that the left eventually wanted to not just ban certain high capacity rifles but any form of self defense. I think that is easily witnessed in the UK and other places.

 I just linked to the sites of the actual law rather than natural news or infowars

https://legiscan.com/VA/text/SB64/id/2070814

http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?201+ful+SB64+hil

 Paramilitary activity prohibited; penalty.

..

1. Teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive, or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder; or

2. Assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, explosive, or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to employ such training for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder; or

3. Assembles with one or more persons with the intent of intimidating any person or group of persons by drilling, parading, or marching with any firearm, any explosive or incendiary device, or any components or combination thereof.

===========

other related articles

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/virginia-bluestate-secondamendment-gunlaws/2019/11/24/id/943090/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJQ3M2xcwv0

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/11/yes-virginia-they-want-to-seize-your-guns/#axzz66bWZOtij

https://wjla.com/news/local/virginia-2nd-amendment-sanctuaries


Offline iam4liberty

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2019, 07:26:11 AM »
viva la resistance!

https://freebeacon.com/issues/virginia-second-amendment-sanctuary-movement-just-getting-started/
Gun-Rights Leader: Virginia ‘Second Amendment Sanctuary’ Movement Just Getting Started


"Second Amendment sanctuary" supporters gather outside a meeting room in Amelia County, Virginia / VCDL

Offline surfivor

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2019, 07:50:33 AM »

I can easily imagine a day where if you were involved in gun rights advocacy or anything similar opposing leftist ideology then you could be denied employment, banking, credit etc. I would not underestimate what is possible and I think political non involvement is likely to just make it all more likely

Offline armymars

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2019, 10:14:18 AM »
I wonder if this includes my MARS training or the national guard.

Offline surfivor

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2019, 10:52:24 AM »
I wonder if this includes my MARS training or the national guard.

It is worded as if to prohibit martial arts. Hard to believe but these days anything seems possible

Offline surfivor

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2019, 12:53:21 PM »

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/newly-elected-lawmakers-plan-full-scale-assault-on-rifles-handguns-firearms-training/

Alert: Newly elected lawmakers plan full scale assault on rifles, handguns, firearms training

..

intent is no longer really required, leaving every gun range owners and employees susceptible to prosecution for simply doing business. It’s plain as day why this language is the way it is, because with these key words, only loose connections need to be established to criminalize gun owners and enthusiasts.


Online Mr. Bill

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2019, 08:45:07 PM »
So... this is all a bunch of crap.

Here is the current law, which has been on the books since 1987:

§ 18.2-433.2. Paramilitary activity prohibited.

Quote
A person shall be guilty of unlawful paramilitary activity, punishable as a Class 5 felony if he:

1. Teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder; or

2. Assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to employ such training for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder.

Here is the proposed new law (link provided by surfivor):

SENATE BILL NO. 64

The only change this bill makes (besides grammar and punctuation changes) is to add a third paragraph:

Quote
3. Assembles with one or more persons with the intent of intimidating any person or group of persons by drilling, parading, or marching with any firearm, any explosive or incendiary device, or any components or combination thereof.

There is no new law against firearms, or martial arts, or paramilitary groups.  There's only an amendment to prohibit armed marches "with the intent of intimidating".  Disapprove of that amendment if you like, but this proposed law has nothing to do with taking away your right to learn Krav Maga.

Offline surfivor

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2019, 12:33:48 AM »
So... this is all a bunch of crap.

Here is the current law, which has been on the books since 1987:

§ 18.2-433.2. Paramilitary activity prohibited.

Here is the proposed new law (link provided by surfivor):

SENATE BILL NO. 64

The only change this bill makes (besides grammar and punctuation changes) is to add a third paragraph:

There is no new law against firearms, or martial arts, or paramilitary groups.  There's only an amendment to prohibit armed marches "with the intent of intimidating".  Disapprove of that amendment if you like, but this proposed law has nothing to do with taking away your right to learn Krav Maga.

It doesn’t mention any martial arts specifically but the way it’s worded does sound like that although maybe it would never be enforced. Why does the legislature have to pass unconstitutional laws anyway I am not sure tho I do have some doubts if those laws would be applied but it is still interesting and no doubt they wish they could get people to comply with similar types of restrictions or if they had such apparent justification etc. any time there is a mass shooting or similar event they always push the envelope as much as possible even if the actual details of what happened or how it happen turn out to be very questionable. They establish a narrative and promote that towards their ends which is always a desire for restrictions

They are also apparently I guess taking an older unconstitutional law, adding to it and running it through once again, probably for added emphasis etc
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 12:51:31 AM by surfivor »

Offline surfivor

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2019, 01:24:05 AM »

When I read laws sometimes it’s not always clear what they mean. They appear to be run on sentences written in lawyer language that need a lawyer to translate them but different lawyers may also give different answers as to what the laws mean. I am not sure these laws are written in correct English and may seem very ambiguous

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2019, 04:57:13 PM »
So... this is all a bunch of crap.

Here is the current law, which has been on the books since 1987:

§ 18.2-433.2. Paramilitary activity prohibited.

Here is the proposed new law (link provided by surfivor):

SENATE BILL NO. 64

The only change this bill makes (besides grammar and punctuation changes) is to add a third paragraph:

There is no new law against firearms, or martial arts, or paramilitary groups.  There's only an amendment to prohibit armed marches "with the intent of intimidating".  Disapprove of that amendment if you like, but this proposed law has nothing to do with taking away your right to learn Krav Maga.

The martial arts angle is a media seeded straw man to distract from the real issue which is an attempt to stop protests against their anti-gun legislation.  As explained by the various law enforcent websites:

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/virginia-bill-to-make-firearms-training-an-illegal-paramilitary-activity-and-felony/
Virginia bill to make firearms training an "illegal paramilitary activity" and felony?

3. Assembles with one or more persons with the intent of intimidating any person or group of persons by drilling, parading, or marching with any firearm, any explosive or incendiary device, or any components or combination thereof.”.

How it will be Perceived/Explained:
Well now this will try to put you at rest from thinking that someone can legally start up some kind of training camp to prepare people to wreak havoc on your city, which with the way the law is written it can certainly be applied in that fashion.

And that portion pertaining to marching, well that’s to stop anyone from making it look like they own your streets via a militaristic grip and toting their scary guns. Keep in mind, this is how it will be sold and broadly digested.

How it can be Enforced:
That last Section, 3, is the most unique part of the law. While Section 2 can be applied much like Section 1 can, that third portion has the ability to criminalize open-carry demonstrations and peaceful protests.


In other words, if any group assembles in protest and anyone in the group, even a plant, has a firearm, then the politicians can say it was an attempt to intimidate.  The result will be the classification of everyone there as felons and thus they would all lose their firearm rights.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 05:05:28 PM by iam4liberty »

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2019, 09:53:52 PM »

How it can be Enforced:
That last Section, 3, is the most unique part of the law. While Section 2 can be applied much like Section 1 can, that third portion has the ability to criminalize open-carry demonstrations and peaceful protests.[/i]

In other words, if any group assembles in protest and anyone in the group, even a plant, has a firearm, then the politicians can say it was an attempt to intimidate.  The result will be the classification of everyone there as felons and thus they would all lose their firearm rights.

I agree, this is a huge change in the law.

The existing law, so the first two parts, specifically state that there is an  Intent of furthering a civil disorder.

The third part, is way more subjective.  While it still contains the word "intent"  the rest, intimidation, is too subjective, it is in the eyes of the beholder, and this generally means the eyes of the person who feels intimidated.  This makes a person responsible for someone elses feelings.  I felt intimidated.  In this day and age, absolutely anything you do is going to "make someone feel bad"  which is interpreted as intimidation.  A person feels intimadated because another is open carrying, never mind that it is legal !  Now the legal citizen is a criminal because of how the first person felt !  Not to mention, in a way, isnt the whole point of any protest to be a show of numbers ?  A show of strength of shared purpose or thought of the demonstrators ?  So, in that sense, any person of the opposing thought would feel intimidated by that show of strength even in a political disagreement having nothing to do with 2A

Offline David in MN

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2019, 06:45:47 AM »
"Assembles with one or more person"... Does that include my kid in the carseat? I hate to say it but the vagaries of this law hang on intent. Beyond that it could just be a couple in a car with a cigarette lighter. It's that poorly written.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2019, 04:27:31 PM »
They definitely need bigger meeting rooms in Virginia.  Maybe NRA will open up the headquarters space for the council next time.  ;)

We're rooting for you, Virginians!
 
https://twitter.com/StephenGutowski/status/1201977885143306240

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2019, 08:24:20 AM »
Keep going, Virginians!  Gotta blow up that death star and take down emperor Northam and darth Saslaw.  You can do it.

https://freebeacon.com/issues/virginia-dems-cave-on-confiscation-as-2a-sanctuaries-expand/
Virginia Dems Cave on Confiscation as 2A Sanctuaries Expand
Gun-rights groups unsatisfied with concession, vow to fight on


Virginia Democratic leaders abandoned their gun confiscation proposal Monday following a grassroots outpouring of opposition to gun control across the state.

Governor Ralph Northam (D.) and incoming Senate majority leader Dick Saslaw (D.) said they will no longer pursue their marquee plan to ban the possession of "assault weapons." Instead, they will include a provision to allow Virginians to keep the firearms they already own. The reversal comes before the newly elected Democratic majority has even been sworn in, after a majority of the state's counties declared themselves "Second Amendment sanctuaries."

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2019, 08:31:04 PM »
Pretty much every county, city, and police department has rejected the democrats' plan.  Now they are threatening to call out the national guard against the people exerting their constitutional rights.  But word is that national guard is going to decline calls.  What is next?  Go full Swalwell and threaten nukes?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/the-law-is-the-law-virginia-democrats-float-prosecution-national-guard-deployment-if-police-dont-enforce-gun-control
'The law is the law': Virginia Democrats float prosecution, National Guard deployment if police don't enforce gun control

Democratic lawmakers on Capitol Hill say local police who do not enforce gun control measures likely to pass in Virginia should face prosecution and even threats of the National Guard.

After November's Virginia Legislature elections that led to Democrats taking control of both chambers, the gun control legislation proposed by some Democrats moved forward, including universal background checks, an “assault weapons” ban, and a red flag law.

Legal firearm owners in the state, however, joined with their sheriffs to form Second Amendment sanctuary counties, which declare the authorities in these municipalities uphold the Second Amendment in the face of any gun control measure passed by Richmond.

Over 75 counties in Virginia have so far adopted such Second Amendment sanctuary resolutions in the commonwealth, the latest being Spotsylvania County. The board of supervisors voted unanimously to approve a resolution declaring that county police will not enforce state-level gun laws that violate Second Amendment rights.

Offline surfivor

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2019, 11:04:18 PM »
This is very serious stuff isn’t it. I guess the “alarmists” were right
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 11:10:54 PM by surfivor »

Offline fred.greek

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2019, 12:26:35 AM »
So, it will be in Virginia that you show your wife / girlfriend how to safely handle / use a firearm.  Later you two are taking a walk & a thug tries to mug you.  She fires a round, misses, & the thug runs away.  The bullet hit someone's mailbox.

A rational person would not call that a civil disturbance, but, I can absolutely see some radical prosecutor going after you for showing her how to handle a firearm.

§ 18.2-433.1. Definitions.
As used in this article:
"Civil disorder" means any public disturbance within the United States or any territorial possessions thereof involving acts of violence by assemblages of three or more persons, which causes an immediate danger of or results in damage or injury to the property or person of any other individual.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2019, 08:26:53 AM »
Ah, but what does the Virginia Army National Guard say?  Well, their Adjutant General responded in a statement saying they wont even speculate about such a role: ""We have received multiple questions regarding proposed legislation for the 2020 General Assembly session and the authority of the Governor of Virginia to employ the Virginia National Guard in a law enforcement role. We understand and respect the passion people feel for the U.S. Constitution and 2nd Amendment rights. We will not speculate about the possible use of the Virginia National Guard."

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/yes-virginia-the-governor-really-can-use-the-national-guard-to-enforce-gun-control
Yes, Virginia, the governor really can use the National Guard to enforce gun control

With dozens of Virginia counties declaring themselves Second Amendment sanctuaries, some Democratic lawmakers have said the governor should use the National Guard to enforce future gun control legislation — but can he?

Virginia Democrats, who control the legislature and governorship, have proposed several measures, including an “assault weapons” ban, universal background checks, and a red flag law. In response, 75 counties vowed they will not enforce future gun control legislation. Virginia Democratic Rep. Donald McEachin told the Washington Examiner on Thursday that Gov. Ralph Northam “may have to nationalize the National Guard to enforce the law” if local authorities refuse to do so themselves.

The president, as commander-in-chief of the armed forces, is the only person who can nationalize the Guard, but state governors have the latitude to use it to enforce state law, legal experts said.

“Until nationalized, it’s a creature of the state. So that’s what leads me to believe that, yes, the governor can activate the National Guard to enforce even a state law,” Gary Solis, a military law professor at Georgetown University, told the Washington Examiner.

Offline surfivor

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2019, 10:13:03 AM »
The guard might still try it even if the deny it. They could also try replacing the guard leadership with people who would. I wouldn’t doubt it and I would not trust any of these people

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2019, 10:39:36 AM »
The guard might still try it even if the deny it. They could also try replacing the guard leadership with people who would. I wouldn’t doubt it and I would not trust any of these people

They tried it in New Orleans and it was a disaster.  The guard leadership was forced to pull out of that role in a couple days because of troop refusal. And remember, all it takes is one phone call from the president to nationalise the guard and it immediately stops.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2019, 12:02:25 PM »
Citizens putting the politicians on notice:

https://youtu.be/eLh5BdAGv6E

Offline surfivor

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2019, 12:07:18 PM »
They tried it in New Orleans and it was a disaster.  The guard leadership was forced to pull out of that role in a couple days because of troop refusal. And remember, all it takes is one phone call from the president to nationalise the guard and it immediately stops.

I think some guns where confiscated in New Orleans. Any one of these democrats running for office would encourage gun confiscations at any possible chance if they where in office so maybe vote for someone else even if they are not libertarian

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2019, 04:10:11 PM »
I think some guns where confiscated in New Orleans. Any one of these democrats running for office would encourage gun confiscations at any possible chance if they where in office so maybe vote for someone else even if they are not libertarian

The vast majority, if not all, of the ~600 seized in New Orleans was by local police, not national guard.  National guard gave up when they met resistance from  citizens.   The governor of the Virgin Islands also ordered the guard to seize firearms in 2017.  The guard told him to pound sand.  They learned from the New Orleans experience and adopted their own policy not to seize firearms from citizens during emergencies.  It is not worth the loss of troop lives to support crazy politicians' positions.

Offline surfivor

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2019, 08:14:17 PM »
The vast majority, if not all, of the ~600 seized in New Orleans was by local police, not national guard.  National guard gave up when they met resistance from  citizens.   The governor of the Virgin Islands also ordered the guard to seize firearms in 2017.  The guard told him to pound sand.  They learned from the New Orleans experience and adopted their own policy not to seize firearms from citizens during emergencies.  It is not worth the loss of troop lives to support crazy politicians' positions.

How do people resist? They say “turn in your guns” and people say “no thanks but I appreciate the opportunity ” something like that ? I’m not really familiar with the exact details but am curious what you refer to. If I heard something else about it, it was many years ago so I may have forgotten

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2019, 09:31:29 AM »
How do people resist? They say “turn in your guns” and people say “no thanks but I appreciate the opportunity ” something like that ? I’m not really familiar with the exact details but am curious what you refer to. If I heard something else about it, it was many years ago so I may have forgotten

The situation was that for a week after the storm there was little police or national guard presence.  There was a lot of looting and residents started to band together to protect themselves and their property.  Then the police showed up.  A declaration was made that there was a mandatory evacuation and no-one would be able to be armed during the evacuation.  Some people complied and handed over there firearms and evacuated but the vast majority refused; saying they werent handing over their arms or that they didnt have any. Except for weaker individuals (like the elderly) the police didnt press the point.  But the police apparently started spreading rumors that the soldiers were coming and that they were going to take people's firearms and use force to compel them to leave.  The national guard arrived on the scene admist these rumors but almost at once the troops refused.  See here for example story from a national guard member: https://youtu.be/2HRZfvtYlCY

There were thousands of firearms rounded up, but the vast majority were from empty houses primarily to keep looters from getting them  Best guess is that about 600 were taken from individuals directly (which is horrible).  But of those, there were none that were documented as being taken by national guard from what I have been able to find (and at the time I scoured the threads).  There were rumors of National Guard from California and Oklahoma stealing firearms and other valuables found in homes and maybe taking some from people they evacuated, but no confirmation could be found.

The NRA quickly sprang into action regarding the firearms being taken.  They got a judge to sign order stopping police from taking firearms from people and ordering the ones taken returned.  The mayor and chief of police of New Orleans knew they were in deep trouble and denied having taken or holding any firearms.  But in end NRA compelled their return through the court system and member pressure campaign.  However many of the firearms were damaged from storage or because some police were immediately smashing them.

So between the citizens and national guard refusing to comply and the NRA jumping on it immediately, the confiscations were ended.  The same thing is happening in Virginia except this time it looks like the majority of police and county reps are on the good side too.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 09:36:33 AM by iam4liberty »

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2019, 03:38:07 PM »
Franklin county becomes 97th 2A sanctuary by unanomous vote.  Only a half dozen counties more to go and only two counties likely not to join.

https://www.wsls.com/news/local/2019/12/17/franklin-county-becomes-virginias-latest-second-amendment-sanctuary/

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2019, 10:08:17 AM »
Now 100 with town of Vinton being latest.  And Stafford county meeting was overwhelmed with citizens.  Hundreds of 2A Sanctuary supporters spoke but even after three hours of testimony long lines remained!


Offline iam4liberty

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2019, 01:15:11 PM »
https://freebeacon.com/issues/like-a-freight-train-9-out-of-10-virginia-counties-declare-themselves-2nd-amendment-sanctuaries/
‘Like a Freight Train’: 9 Out of 10 Virginia Counties Declare Themselves 2nd Amendment Sanctuaries

The grassroots push for Virginia counties to say they won't enforce gun bans even if passed by the state legislature is spreading "like a freight train," with nearly 9 out of 10 counties in the state declaring themselves "Second Amendment sanctuaries" and thousands of people expected to show up for a pro-gun rally in the state capital next month.

"It's been like a freight train," said Philip Van Cleave, whose Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL) has helped organize the sanctuary movement. "It started moving and it's moving under its own weight at this point. It's amazing."

Van Cleave said the group is doing everything it can to leverage the energy of the "Second Amendment sanctuary" movement which has swept across the state at breakneck speed the past few weeks. As of Friday, 85 counties, 9 cities, and 17 towns had formally declared themselves sanctuaries, according to the gun-rights group.

Offline Prepper456

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2019, 01:39:31 PM »
i hope no one gets hot headed

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: VA legislature want to ban all paramilitary activity ?
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2019, 07:01:25 AM »
Update:  Stephen Gutowski is reporting on Twitter that Gov. Northam's office now says he isn't considering using National Guard to enforce any gun laws.  Looks like the Adjutant General won that battle